Quarterbore.Net Forums


Go Back   Quarterbore's Forums > 300 Whisper Forums > 300 Whisper Rifles and Pistols
Home Forums Classifieds Photo Server FAQ Members List Calendar Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #11  
Old 02-24-2011, 03:31 PM
ohnomrbillk ohnomrbillk is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 78
Quote:
Originally Posted by rsilvers View Post
ohnomrbillk,

If you are serious about being upset that I helped bring this cartridge to SAAMI - what was the alternative? It had to be in SAAMI in order for most larger companies to consider making guns and ammo for it. Would you rather the 300 Fireball concept stayed obscure?

"Well, you could have called it 300 Fireball." No - that name is engraved on too many guns with random chambers... It would not have been very likely to get SAAMI approval for that.

22 Varminter existed before 22-250 - and I am sure at the time a few people said that the SAAMI cartridge should have been called 22 Varminter - but there was likewise a wide variation in the existing chambers. A new name was needed.

Also, SAAMI does not allow cartridges with registered trademark names - this is why 6.5 Grendal was rejected from approval in January.
I have stated several times that the SAAMI approval process will greatly enhance the availability of products available in this chambering.

The fact that I am citing the movie Animal House in my other responses should make it apparent that the level of seriousness I posses in this matter is typical of all National Lampoon films.

I made the same statement on this forum concerning 22 Varminter into the 22-250. I understand that liability concerns with factory ammo in chambers of unknown spec.

I don't understand what you mean by the Grendal. Is Blackout not a registered trademark of AAC?
Reply With Quote
  #12  
Old 02-24-2011, 04:10 PM
rsilvers rsilvers is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Posts: 482
Quote:
Originally Posted by ohnomrbillk View Post
In a study done which you can find here: www.riflebarrels.com/articles/barrel_life1.pdf , the conclusions note that, "there is peeling of the oxide layer by tangential cracks under the surface resulting from shear stress." They note that chrome lined bores do the same thing, but in less time. That does not sound like accuracy to me.

If it made for the most accurate barrel, benchrest shooters would be all over it. For a battle rifle like an AR, it may be ideal.

George at GA Precision has told me most US sniper rifles pass accuracy as long as they can hold MOA accuracy. No doubt many shoot better than that, but they are not required to.

I guess answering the "are they accurate?" question is subjective to what the buyer defines as being accurate. By looking at the suggested premium barrel manufacturers, I'm guessing the expectations are high.
We don't use plasma nitriding so this paper does not apply to AAC barrels. Remington tested their nitriding process and found that it lasted 60% longer than hard-chrome. As for accuracy, it has no more accuracy potential than a stainless barrel. What I claim for AAC barrels is - the accuracy potential of a stainless barrel, but lifespan potential greater than hard-chrome.

I don't disagree with you that benchrest shooters have a different standard of what is good from other people, and in being clear, the AAC barrels have more of the design philosophy of an AI rifle or sniper rifle than a benchrest rifle. For example, a benchrest rifle will have freebore probably below the legal minimum - perhaps 0.3085 or so. The AAC barrel is going to have freebore around 0.3095. This is done for a few reasons...

1. To keep pressure down.
2. To reduce the chance of a stuck bullet if you extract before firing.
3. To allow for a cartridge to chamber more easily, even if there is bullet runout.

The AAC barrels are made very carefully to the drawing and the chambers are verified with ball gauges and depth micrometers, but the drawing does not go below SAAMI min as many custom guns would do. If you want to win an accuracy contest above all other considerations, you probably do want to violate minimum dimensions.

For example,

SAAMI 0.308 Win freebore is 0.310 minimum.
SAAMI 0.308 bullets are 0.309 maximum.
Custom gunsmiths 0.308 chamber reamers often have 0.3085 freebore.

This is not something an engineer who understands geometric dimensioning and tolerancing would allow. Perhaps every bullet a custom gunsmith saw so far was 0.3083 or smaller and they "never had a problem" with a 0.3085 freebore. Their guns shoot better during a magazine test and the gunwriter also had no problems. This causes the custom gun maker to claim they are better than a $6,000 AI or Remington XM-2010. Fine, until the user in the field extracts an unfired shot and the bullet stays stuck in the chamber, and powder is everywhere - and then the hostage-takers kill the hostage.

That is what I try to do for the barrel - well made and accurate but not at the expense of reliability under extreme conditions.

Also, pressure goes up about 3,000 PSI with small changes:

http://www.border-barrels.com/articl...Consortium.htm
__________________
R&D for AAC
Reply With Quote
  #13  
Old 02-24-2011, 04:14 PM
rsilvers rsilvers is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Posts: 482
Quote:
Originally Posted by ohnomrbillk View Post
I don't understand what you mean by the Grendal. Is Blackout not a registered trademark of AAC?
6.5 Grendal went through the SAAMI process at the same time as 300 AAC BLACKOUT. It was not approved because the company would not allow others to use the name on products royalty-free.

"300 AAC BLACKOUT"
"300 BLK"

Anyone who makes SAAMI spec guns or ammo can use either of those names on their products royalty free.
__________________
R&D for AAC
Reply With Quote
  #14  
Old 02-24-2011, 04:53 PM
ds762 ds762 is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: MO
Posts: 98
Also, SAAMI does not allow cartridges with registered trademark names - this is why 6.5 Grendal was rejected from approval in January.

Let me get this straight .. you are saying that SAAMI doesnt allow use of a trademark name. Yet your/AAC trademark of the "blackout" went through because you allow use of the name without royalty?

Maybe I'm reading this wrong but you are appearing to contradict yourself (at least in my eyes).
Reply With Quote
  #15  
Old 02-24-2011, 05:29 PM
rsilvers rsilvers is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Posts: 482
There are only two valid SAAMI names for the cartridge:

"300 AAC BLACKOUT"
"300 BLK"

Neither of these is a registered trademark.
__________________
R&D for AAC
Reply With Quote
  #16  
Old 02-24-2011, 05:35 PM
TCCrewchief76's Avatar
TCCrewchief76 TCCrewchief76 is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 178
Quote:
Originally Posted by rsilvers View Post
As for accuracy, it has no more accuracy potential than a stainless barrel.
I believe this is what has got people up-in-arms. Not that it has no more accuracy potential, but that it will have less. Unfortunately, even match grade barrels, made by the same maker with the same reamer, using the same blank, will shoot differently with different loads. I'm sure there will be AAC barrels that shoot lights out. There might be some that don't shoot to that same standard. Model 1 sales makes 300 Fireball barrels: some shoot great, some not so much. As long as an object is man-made, there will be variations. Let's let Rem/AAC make barrels, and we'll all benefit from it whether or not we buy them for our own builds or not.
__________________
Can you hear that? It's our founding fathers turning over in their graves...
Reply With Quote
  #17  
Old 02-24-2011, 05:42 PM
rsilvers rsilvers is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Posts: 482
Whether they shoot the same, better, or less accurately than a stainless barrel will have nothing to do with the nitriding.
__________________
R&D for AAC
Reply With Quote
  #18  
Old 02-24-2011, 09:51 PM
ohnomrbillk ohnomrbillk is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 78
Quote:
Originally Posted by rsilvers View Post
We don't use plasma nitriding so this paper does not apply to AAC barrels. Remington tested their nitriding process and found that it lasted 60% longer than hard-chrome. As for accuracy, it has no more accuracy potential than a stainless barrel. What I claim for AAC barrels is - the accuracy potential of a stainless barrel, but lifespan potential greater than hard-chrome.
So what nitriding process are you using?
Reply With Quote
  #19  
Old 02-24-2011, 10:23 PM
rsilvers rsilvers is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Posts: 482
Salt bath nitriding.
__________________
R&D for AAC
Reply With Quote
  #20  
Old 02-25-2011, 02:34 AM
TCCrewchief76's Avatar
TCCrewchief76 TCCrewchief76 is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 178
So this means that Hornady is loading a non-SAAMI standard wildcat round in the Grendel offering! If SAAMI rejected it due to its name, this would be the case. Perhaps they should name it after another fictional character, Gimli, from Lord of the Rings. Very small in stature, but carries its weight well despite its size.

Kevin
__________________
Can you hear that? It's our founding fathers turning over in their graves...

Last edited by TCCrewchief76; 02-25-2011 at 04:13 PM.
Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 09:40 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2016, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.