125 grain nosler for deer?

[jripper]

Anyone have any experience with the 125 grain Nosler bullet used on Deer or other game?

[JF]

Yes- they work surprizingly well. I've shot white tail deer up to 140 yards away with them and they worked for lung/chest shots quiet well. I got perfect expansion and a good size exit hole.

[JF]

Correction: I was using Sierra 125s and not Nosler 125s. 2300-2400 FPS from my 300 Whisper.

[Zed Stewart]

The Nosler manual says that any ballistic tip hunting bullet (the tests were done with .30 cal 165 gr BTs) should expand down to an impact velocity of 1600 fps, if memory serves. I read it not two weeks ago. It is suprisingly low.

I will through this info in here since it may be relevent. There is no real difference in trajectory if the velocity is the same in bullets of very different styles.

Example: Zero- 200 yards, Muzzle Vel- 2300 fps

Nosler 125 BT - 2.72" high at 100, 0" at 200, 12.63" low at 300.

Speer 130 FN SP (30-30 bullet) - 3.21" high at 100, 0" at 200, 15.42" low at 300.

There is a difference of 0.49" at 100 and 2.79" at 300.

Now let's look at retained velocity at 200 yards. The Nosler will have 1876 fps and the Speer will have 1695 fps. Which bullet will expand the best at these respective velocities? My money goes for the bullet that is designed originally for a slow cartridge.

All of this does not take into consideration accuracy. I have not been able to test how the Speer bullet shoots in a Wh/FB. I will have that info as soon as my range is some-what dry.

I will pose this question for fun right now but I will discuss it at length when I feel like typing for 30 minutes or so.
Which bullet will have better terminal ballistics at Wh/FB velocities, sonic or subsonic? 220 gr MK or a 125 BT/130 FN SP?

Have fun!

[jripper]

I'll throw in my two cents worth. This question is very similar to the old .45 vs 9mm pistol debate. Big heavy bullet going slow, or small light bullet going faster. Except in this case, bullets have the same diameter.

My background is as a former police officer, current probation officer and part time Police Firearms instructor. I am also a competitive USPSA/IPSC and IDPA shooter, and avid deer hunter.

My instructers background was from a part time gunsite instructor, and was all COOPER mentality and the modern technique, all the way. Part of this is you need a big, heavy bullet out of a handgun to be effective. He also believed in .30 rifles, etc. vs. .223. In fact, he really liked the 30-30 lever gun for a police carbine, which of course, is similar to the .300 whisper. I used to be brain washed by the modern technique being the only way, and bigger is better in bullets.

However, as I became more involved in shooting and hunting, I have changed my perceptions on what works, and what doesn't.

Now, to the question of what has the better terminal ballistics, .220 sub or 125 super...

I believe that the term terminal ballistics is relavent to what they are terminating into.

If we are talking white tail deer, it is different than talking about coyotes or people.

I have killed a couple of coyotes, around 30 deer, and thankfully, no people.

My deer hunting has been with shotgun slugs (foster type and sabot), bow, muzzle loader (modern with sabot) and pistol. I also shot a few roadside injured deer with .357 mag pistol. All were mid-Illinois healthy, corn fed whitetails ranging from about 100 lbs(whoops, was that really that small when it was walking) to an estimated 290 lbs at ranges from 15 feet to about 190 yards.

Here is how I see it. A 125 grain bullet going 1600 to 1800 fps is going to going to expand. It will have the velocity left to literally shred internal organs, and cause massive bleeding. Most of the deer I have shot have been with bullets or slugs going 1200 (45 long colt magnum level loaded) to 1500 (slugs and 250 grain sabot bullets).

I have witnessed the the massive internal injury these rounds have created in deer size game, when hit in the heart/lung area. These animals have all died quickly when hit in the right spot ( and no, I sure did not hit every one the right spot, some time I'll tell you about my 1/2 mile track on a 150lb buck hit in the liver with an arrow, or the 3 or 4 that I just screwed up on). Most of the time, they do not run more than 50 yards, if at all. If they do run out of sight, the blood trails are usually very visible, and easy to follow.

I think the that the 125 grain whisper should fall within this territory. I am most worried about bullet construction. I just don't want a bullet that will fall apart if I hit a shoulder, or if it hits a rib the wrong way.

Now, the .220 subsonic. This is similar to your big, heavy bullet Cooper crowd.

I liken it to my archery deer. Arrows on paper look like they would have terrible terminal ballistics. I use a 100 grain fixed broadhead, going at around 225 fps. Not real good on paper. When hit properly, the deer I have shot with this die quite quickly. When you field dress these deer, they do not show the massive internal injuries that those hit by any firearm show. You can pretty well see the pattern of the broad head going through the deer (3 nice blade holes). The arrows usually go all the way through on a broadside shot, (unless they hit a leg or shoulder). And most of these deer do not run more than 100 yards. (I have never seen one fall dead in it's tracks, after being hit by an arrow, but have seen a few run about 30 yards and fall over).

The blood trails from these deer vary from good to poor, and usually do not start immediately where the deer was hit from.

I think that the 220 subsonic is going to be more like an arrow in terminal ballistics.

Each will kill a deer.

Poor shots with either will not kill a deer.

Good hits with the 125's are probably going cause more internal damage, and this is primarly due to the velocity they maintain. If you want to see an example, shoot some water jugs with the .220 subs, and the 125 upers, and see which are more impressive. Bullet expansion does play some role, but even more important is velocity.

The deer hit well with 220s are going to die, fairly quickly. They may penetrate deeper. Or they may, as some people propose, tumble. Either way, they will more than likely penetrate deep enough to kill in either instance, and probably will not expand.

The deer will probably run in either instance.

However, the 125's are going to do more internal damage, and leave a better blood trail, as long as the bullet does not distengrate upon impact with a bone, such as a rib.

The 220 are going to leave a pencil size hole in, and if they do not tumble, on the way out.

There is not going to be much of a blood trail., and probably not until they run a little ways.

And even with a hole in their heart, they can run a little ways. I can verify than they can run up to 250 yards with no heart.

I shot a 290 lb 10 point this year with my bow. Quartering away at about 18 yards, I shot him and he ran an honest 250yards, up a 40 ft hill, before falling. When I field dress him, he had a nice hole in both lungs, and dead center in the heart. I had heard tell of it being possible that a deer could run that far after a heart shot, but did not believe it until I saw it myself.

So, terminal ballistics on a deer, in my opinion, are going to be better with the 125 supers, as long as the bullet is designed properly. Thus was the reason for my original question about the nosler bullet.

Does this mean I should give up my bow hunting and only hunt with a gun? Heck no.

Does this mean that you can't hunt with the 220 subs. Heck no.

It does mean that if you go into the woods with the 220 subs, you have to know the limitations.

And I see people talk about head shots on deer also .

I'm sure the 220s are effective on head shots, but so are the 125s.

BUT, a deers spinal brain stem is very small, small than a hickory nut. And deer in my area typically move around. And I am usually in a treestand, and it is usually cold, and there is usually some brush in the way, and I am usually tired, and can't feel my fingers fully, and am a little excited, etc. etc.

I just don't believe in head shots on deer. I don't even believe in headshots for finishing shots, unless at point blank range.
I used to shoot car wounded deer in the head with a .357 at basically point blank range. Too many times have I seen them still breathing 5 or 10 minutes later, and had to shot them again in the lungs.

I have heard same tales from other hunters and cops who shoot wounded deer.

Anyway, that is my long, drawn out opinion.

I hope that you did not fall asleep in the middle reading this.

It has been a boring day at work, so I could actually post all of it.

Hope I don't get too much hate posting.

Joel

[JF]

I hope I don't offend anyone with this post. I believe theory and practical experience are two different things. I have seen a lot of animals shot with subsonic 220gr match bullets. They are not for body shots in my opinion. You are risking a lost animal that will die a slow death in most instances if you do. Think of a knitting needle pushing flesh aside as it pokes a hole through. It does not cut a hole as much as it pushed one. One of the biggest problems is that all that terminal energy is lost due to over penetration. It doesn't dump enough energy into the target and is wasted out the other side.

If you take a Sierra 125 or similar 30 caliber spitzer bullet, they are often designed to come apart at high velocity. They are not designed for hunting deer when shot from a 308, 30-06 etc. But when you shoot them from a relatively slow 300 Whisper in the 2200 to 2400FPS range, they expand and act like a game bullet should on game. On a simple chest shot, they will perform similar to a 30-30, 308, 30-06 etc. I've seen good expansion and a nice exit hole but not explosive results.

For a relatively slow subsonic bullet to perform best on body shots, you will have the best results with a heavy, larger caliber, flat tip bullet like the 45 colt etc. For 30 caliber subsonic 220 match bullets to perform best on game, you need to aim for a head shot or simply pass on the shot- in my opinion. These 220 subsonics can be very accurate out of the proper barrel. If you do your homework at the range using field shooting positions for practice (instead of just a cement bench at exactly one set yardage), you will know your limitations.

[jripper]

I agree with JF to some degree. 220s are better for head shots than body shots. I believe that 125's are better than 220s for either one. There is only one reason, in my opinion, that you should use 220s, and that is if so some reason, you want to shoot with a silencer. (Not legal here in Illinois).

The question was which has better terminal ballistics. I fully believe that the 125 supers have better terminal ballistics. I have never shot deer with subsonics, and won't be doing so either. As I posted, for my hunting, I don't believe in head shots. I've had many opportunities where I could have made a head shot, but refuse to do so. With the right caliber, a body shot is deadly enough. I do not feel that there is a need to take a head shot. Yes, if you place the shot exactly right, it will drop deer in their tracks. But, like I have said, a well placed body shot with the proper bullet/caliber is going to drop a deer very effectively, with relatively minor tracking. If you miss the brain stem and hit the deer somewhere else in the skull or mouth, you may do nothing to it than cause a painful, debilating injury.

I think that even if I was using 220s, I would take the body shot, but I won't be using 220s :D

For me, I might try a 220 on a coyote, as I have a certain disdain for coyotes ( I have a small dog they seem to like too well), just to see what it will do. But that is a much smaller animal.

This is just my opinion, and if you head shoot deer with 220 subs, and have good sucess, more power to you.
But unless you are using a silencer, I don't see the point.

Also, one last thought. Altough typically a meat hunter, I do ocassionally shoot a decent wall haning buck. If I take a head shot, there is a great risk of breaking the rack, skull, or both.

[K9 Handler]

I'd just want jump in here and thank you guys for sharing your knowledge and experience. You just saved me a bundle of money! Let me explain that....
I've been lurking here wondering about what to do. I hunt whitetail on my own property in CT, and is typical most everywhere in the NE, we are subject to suburb-creep. More and more farms are falling to the dreaded developer, who puts up mega-square-foot McMansions. My surrounding property is no exception. I fear the days of hunting with my LH .308 are numbered, as the soccer moms get horrified when the sound of gunfire wakes the kids early mornings. So I was looking for a quieter way to take down the deer during the firearms season (yes, I do bowhunt, too).
All my shots are well under 125 yards, molstly due to the dense hardwoods.
I did go to TC and got one of their 300/221 Encore barrels with the twist that's wrong for heavy subsonics, just as a start. I probably would have gotten an upper for my Colt AR eventually, but I was really turned off by the problems folks posting here have had with them.
But after reading the posts above, you've convinced me that subsonic 220s are NOT the way to go for hunting. I've read the posts where they purpose head shots on moving deer and wondered how you accomplished that, especially when the noise of the gun gets there before the bullet does! And I REALLY don't want to make a bad shot.

So I'll be happy with the Encore barrel firing 125s. So it's a little noisy. Still better than a .308 firing 165's....

If the soccer-moms don't like it, well that's just too bad!

Now I just have to anquish over which .125 to use! :lol:

Thanks again.

[Zed Stewart]

Ok, I'm here and have a little time. ( It turned out to be 1.5 hrs.) It is time for a terminal ballistics lesson. Please bear in mind that for the sake of this discussion we are talking about killing things, not holes in paper. This is real long.

There are two paradigms to look at when discussing a bullet's terminal performance. The first is the traditional "soft points and spitzers are the only bullets suitable for hunting because the deform, given the impact velocity is high enough, and therefore offer a humane kill if placed in the appropriate place on an animal." This is true... most of the time. If the wrong bullet is used they may only deform or expand very little and only become a flat nosed bullet after impact and travel in a straight line through your target. An example of this is just about any 200 gr or heavier .30 cal bullet. These are designed for high velocity cartridges such as the .300 Mag. They are too hard to expand much at even .308 velocities. Lighter weight bullets usually do not have these problems and expand in the expected way.

Now for the "other" paradigm... Nonexpanding bullets. This is the part of the story that is the most misunderstood part of the shooting world. There are two types of nonexpanding bullets: flatnosed and spitzer. A flat nosed bullet tends to travel in a straight path through the target crushing tissue and bone as it goes. This is what the .44 mag and other large diameter rounds do. With these, velocity only serves to push the bullet through the target, nothing else.

Then we have spitzer type nonexpanding bullets. For this we are talking about FMJ and hollow pointed match bullets. Neither are designed to expand on target. They are just supposed to get there. However, they do something after impact that most people do not know about. They upset.

A small digression:
When a bullet flies through the air it must have a certain rotation rate to be stable in flight. This spin rate depends on the shape of bullet to be used and how long it is. A .50 cal round ball only needs a 1:66" twist to be stable. A .44 mag needs 1:22", if memory serves. The difference between the two is length and shape. The .44 bullet is longer and has a nose that is smaller that the base. Since there is more weight in the base it wants to come around and travel base forward. ( You will see this material again.) This is the most stable position. ( Remember the discussion about seating 220gr bullets backward and shooting them out of 1:10" twist barrels with good results?) This weight forward position is especially sought when the bullet strikes something that is much denser than air.

Back to the story:
This upset of the bullet is very destructive to flesh and bone. The bullet will become unstable and yaw about 4" to 6" after impact. When this happens, it will turn to seek a base forward position. It may turn over once or twice before this position is achieved.

Now we are to the interesting part. A .30 cal 150 gr FMJ bullet is about 1.12" long, a 175 gr is 1.28" long, and a 220 MK is 1.48" long. These are the measurements of the widest point of the wound channel when using the respective bullet. It will taper at both ends but the center, where the vitals are located, will be the largest. A traditional spitzer soft point bullet is doing well to expand to twice its size.

To expand on this, we will look at the role velocity pays in terminal ballistics. With traditional SP bullets velocity must be enough to cause expansion. If the bullet is overmatched for the cartridge the velocity may not be high enough even at the muzzle. This is one problem with the 300 Whisper, not a slam but a factor to be delt with. Bullet upset is not as dependant on impact velocity. However, there will be no upset if the bullet deforms to a flat nose on impact with minimal expansion. This is where a FMJ comes into the picture. A FMJ will upset. The higher the velocity the more violent the action. The longer the bullet the more destruction.

Take into consideration the 5.56mm. A 55 gr FMJ bullet will do an amazing amount of damage to flesh. If the impact velocity is above 2700 FPS it will break at the canelure and become a multifragmented projectile. I have shot an Axis Deer at 175 yards with a 5.56 round and killed it dead. It only traveled about 10 yards at a walk. This is only one example. I have shot a number of critters with a 5.56 and done very well. There is one caveat when using this round. There is no room for a bad shot. There is usually not complete penetration so there will be no blood trail.

There is also a 7.62 bullet that duplicates this behavior on a much larger scale. It is the 150 gr copper washed steel jacketed bullet. These go unstable and break apart with amazing effect. They are like the proverbial bolt of lightening. These bullets also break at the cannelure and do their thing but on a .308 scale. These particular bullets are usually match grade as well.

Only bullets with a cannelure will break in half.

Back to the subject at hand:
Heavy, solid .30 cal bullets will upset and cause a great deal of internal damage. They may only appear to go straight through but that is only on the outside. They usually exit base first if the hold together. They do far more damage that a "pencil." If you have killed the number of animals I have with FMJ bullets and done postmortems you would have no qualms about using this type of bullet. It is my bullet type of choice. They will out perform a spitzer type bullet every time, at any velocity.

If you will recall JD Jones' statement about the heavy subsonic rounds for the .300 whisper, "They kill out of proportion to the what the paper ballistics would have you believe."

Knowledge is power. If you want to use 125 BT go for it. You won't be wrong. If you use the heavier bullets you are not wrong either. If you load your own I would still make them go as fast as possible. I am planning to try out some 130 SP FN at 2250 and 220 MKs at 1400 fps on some hogs next week. If for no other reason that to confirm what I already know.

I will throw this in to make my views know. It will make a few mad but that will be nothing new to me. I tell it like I see it. After guiding hunts and being around hunters professionally for almost 10 years, only idiots take head shots at anything beyond three feet. A deer has a 8" vital zone. The heart is about 3.5" around. Aim for it. If you miss you will still get two lungs. Lat time I checked nobody ate deer ribs so you can't use the meat destruction excuse.

[jripper]

Wow!! This thread has taken all kinds of interesting twists. Don't get me wrong, I love reading all the opinions.
I have not shot anything with FMJ bullets other than steel and paper, so I can not comment. I have heard counts of the 55 FMJ .223 overturning from some pretty reputable sources. I have not really heard about the .308 overturning. I can see how it might.

And yes, I agree that head shots are not the way to go on deer. I recall that when I was young, my dad trapped a red fox out from under a hog house. He put 2 shots from a 22 rifle (22 LR solids) into his head point blank range. I went out to check on it a couple hours later, and it was still breathing. He apparently had not hit the brain stem. He went back and clubbed it in the head and killed it.

I guess my question is, is an overturning, slow velocity bullet as effective as a higher velocity, properly expanding bullet?

Zed says that he has experience with this. I do not, and do not make any claims otherwise.

I will be anxious to see how Zeds pig shoot goes. However, Zed, remeber, I was talking about 220 subs, not 220s at 1400. I believe that 400 fps can make a considerable difference in performance, (even though I know it will not make a 220 match bullet expand).

I am still planning on using my 125's, but Zed makes an interesting point.

He also mentions about using the proper bullet, which leads me back to the original reason I posted this thread...


Does anyone have any experience with the 125 gr. nosler on deer, or any other game?

I missed my chance to try one out on a coyote yesterday.

One came by the house, and the only thing I could get to quickly was my.22mag, and he was past the effective range of that cartridge.

Thanks for all the input, however.

Joel