300 Whisper subsonic adequate for deer?

[too_many_hobbies]

One thing leads to another...

I ordered an AR15 lower for a custom .243 WSSM build for my son. From researching AR15 material, we got interested in sound suppressors so I ordered an AAC 7.62 SD. From researching sound suppressors, I am now interested in an AR15 in 300 Whisper for shooting 220 grain subsonic ammunition.

For hunting purposes, supersonic loads are definiately adequate for whitetail deer size game, but what about subsonic loads out to 100 yards? I hate to spend the money on a 300 Whisper build unless I can use it for deer on down through coyotes. I might consider shooting supersonic loads for whitetail deer, but would probably rather just grab another rifle from the safe instead.

[Quarterbore]

There was a thread on here a few months back of a mission to come up with an expanding heavy weight bullet in 30-cal (for subsonic velocity)... I don't recall where that project went but an expanding bullet would sure help!

If you use a 220 or 240-gr match bullet you know you will need to shoot the deer in the head to drop them quickly. A chest shot will likely not bleed well.

I would use supersonic 300 whisper loads for deer if it were me as deer drop to the shock more then anything and I just think the faster loads will do a better job. Good luck regarless and welcome to the site!

[too_many_hobbies]

[QUOTE=Quarterbore]There was a thread on here a few months back/QUOTE]

Thanks, I will try the search engine to locate the thread. Using a bullet that would expand at subsonic velocities seems to be an obvious way of making the 300 Whisper subsonic rounds a lot more versatile in my opinion. I am a trophy hunter and therefore can't imagine shooting a buck in the head!

My experience is with centerfire rifles in the .243 to 300 mag range so I don't have a feel for what this relatively large bullet traveling with a relatively low amount of energy would do. Would the current 220 grain bullets traveling at subsonic velocities have enough energy for a total pass through on a whitetail deer hit in the chest for a normal heart/lung shot?

[Quarterbore]

Here is the thread...

I guess it has almost been a year...

http://www.quarterbore.net/forums/showthread.php?t=823

Here is another related topic:

http://www.quarterbore.net/forums/showthread.php?t=822

Would the current 220 grain bullets traveling at subsonic velocities have enough energy for a total pass through on a whitetail deer hit in the chest for a normal heart/lung shot?

Honestly, that would be the BEST CASE as at least then you have two blood outlets to help you track! My biggest worry would be too small of a wound and you would not have enough blood to follow and you might lose the animal. In addition, with these slow bullets you don't have the large secondary cavity caused by the energy transfer from the bullet.

I guess I am laying my cards on the table but unless your bullet does some tumbeling (an they may well do that) then you likely would not like the performance on game. NOW, if these bullets tumble in tissue, well that is a whole other game as then you can get lots of internal dammage to get the job done!

I am just not the type to experiment on a deer I guess...

[DonT]

Just a couple of observations...

Over the years I have taken Whitetail with a muzzleloader. 45/50/58 calibers. Slow moving round ball, little to no shock damage. All shots thru the lungs, round exit hole with little tissue disruption on the entrance or exit hole. Both lungs fill with blood, longest one ran was 75 yards. I never put these loads over the Chrony but 45 grains of FFF in the 45, 50 gr. of FFF in the 50 and 65 gr of FF in the 58 can't be going too fast. But they did the job.

I also bow hunt and there is little tissue damage done by disruption all by cutting. Again all shots thru both lungs, furthest deer ever ran was 80 yards before it piled up dead.

Todate all kills have been one shot and zero lost. It does require waiting for the proper shot and I have not taken a deer that was further away than 50 yards, some as close as 20 yards.

Also there is a local professional hunter that culls deer heards for local gov't and the DNR and it is my understanding he uses a whisper as he is in closer to populated areas. Gunshots raise the awareness of the anti gunners/hunters so I am assuming he is using a silenced weapon (aka: subsonic). I found this out when discussing the whisper at the local gunshop where I buy loading supplies, the shop owner said I was only the 2nd person he had ever heard reference the 300 whisper, the other guy buys his reloading stuff at the same shop.

Don't get me wrong, I think a prudent hunter should use a weapon of adequate ballistics to properly dispense what ever they hunt (rabbits to dinosaurs) but adequate can mean different things to different people based on the limitation of the weapon being used and the hunters skills. I would sum up hunting with a Whisper similar to hunting with a Bow as far as range and game taking ability.

Just my $0.02.........

DonT

[too_many_hobbies]

In researching this, it seems that the main limiting factor of subsonic loads for whitetail deer size game in the 300 Whisper is the lack of expansion of the bullet at subsonic velocities, not the lack of energy. Some have the opinion that you are wasting your time trying to inflict tissue damage with an expanding bullet and would be better off simply using a flat nose bullet. Everything in design is a compromise and it appears that most of the development of ammunition for the 300 Whisper has been compromised toward obtaining a high BC to preserve the relatively low amount of energy at extended ranges. From my days with a Hayabusa motorcycle, I remember reading that the aerodynamics depended as much on closing the airflow back up at the rear of the bike to reduce the vacuum effect as it did coming up with a fairing design for a pointed small frontal area. When you look at a V-Tail Bonanza airplane from the front, the front of the cowling is kindly blocky but the rear of the fuselage comes to almost a point. I am no bullet or aerodynamics expert, but it looks like to me that a bullet could be compromised toward hunting with a flat nose for maximum obtainable tissue damage and a specially designed aerodynamic base to preserve the long range capability. But, maybe that is what you are doing by loading one of the pointed bullets backwards. What I am not familiar with is all the other details regarding bullet design for stability.

[too_many_hobbies]

Another thought regarding a flat nose bullet is that, since there is far less air resistance at subsonic velocities, the flat nose may not be as much of a compromise as you might think.

Those with more knowledge than me regarding bullet design please chime in...

I would love to own an AR-15 or Bolt action in 300 Whisper if I could just get by this roadblock. I am not going to spend the money for this setup unless I can hunt whitetail on down with a sound suppressed weapon shooting subsonic ammo.

[too_many_hobbies]

Originally Posted by DonT

It does require waiting for the proper shot and I have not taken a deer that was further away than 50 yards, some as close as 20 yards.

I agree that shot placement is the most important factor, but being a trophy hunter, I don't even consider using a head shot on a nice buck. I did drop a doe in it's tracks this year though with my Mathews Switchback XT compound with a neck shot. The doe was standing still in thick cover and the neck shot was the only possiblity I had. I had been shooting my bow every day or I would not have considered attempting that shot.

I have been present during several arguments among bowhunters regarding the best broadhead. I never participate in the arguments other than to say that I would rather shoot a deer with a field point through the heart/lung area than I would to have a gut shot with the best broadhead made. A lung shot kills a deer due to lack of oxygen when it's lungs fill up with blood. In the picture below, I took two of the deer and the bobcat with a bow and the other deer with a muzzle loader.

[Quarterbore]

Correct, I am not trying to say it can't be done...

My primary dear rifle for the past several years has been a 243. There are some guys that give me grief for the little round but I also shoot that gun a lot in the summer and I havd cleanly picked off groundhogs at 400-yards.

A lesser gun in the right hands will always be better then the bigger gun in the wrong hands! I would just hate to hear that someone lost a big buck because the bullet just didn't perform the way it should!

Now, there is no reason you can't use the silencer with supersonic loads! It would not be as quitet but it would still be better then a normal gun!

Good Luck!

[m21black]

I have taken 3 deer with my 300 Whisper using subsonic loads.

The first was last fall and was a 100 lbs doe at 50 yards. Shot through the heart with a 240 grain SMK traveling at 1040 FPS +/-. She walked approximately 30 feet before expiring. Small 30 caliber entry wound with a large knife likle exit wound. Massive blood trail for the 30 feet.

The next 2 where on the same day within 2 minutes of each other. Both 100 lbs does both with 240 SMK's @ 1040 FPS. The first one took it through the pump and went about 50 feet. Same entry and exit wound, massive blood trail as last falls doe. Her sister took one on the right chest bullet traveled the length of her body lodging on her left hip. Somehow the bullet took out her heart and lungs like a bender snuck through a tenderloin and never touched her entrails. She never took a step and wend down like struck by a 270 Winchester or 30-06.

It's all about shot placement and there is nothing wrong with using your 300 whisper with subsonic rounds when you just don't want to disturb the chickens or the commie liberals.