Need advice; buggering up cases trying to convert .223 to .300

[PFDD]

Scalce,

So far I do have the instructions in soft copy of the .223 case forming but if anything they're more basic than the .221 instructions. I have the PDF version and you're welcome to it. Nothing yet though on the F&T die. You're welcome to that too when I have it. Redding indicated they might have to snail mail that to me if it wasn't scanned.

Unfortunately I tried 4 more cases tonight without success;
1. South African once fired- snapped the neck off in the FL sizing die using the .30 caliber expander
2. Lake City once fired- same, snapped the neck off
3. Winchester once fired-snapped neck but case stayed together with neck portion rotating
4. Winchester new brass-crumpled neck just before cam over

The cases this evening were cleaned, lubed with Imperial Sizing die in and out and on the expander button. All were rough trimmed with a hacksaw while in the F&T die then inside and outside chamfered before being relubed and trying the FL sizing die. After snapping off the first two necks, I backed off the expander plug until it just touched the neck with the ram fully up and started screwing it down a quarter turn at a time until I felt the case give and the neck seperated but stayed attached to the base allowing full rotation. Final try with a new case and same procedure followed until I felt the neck crunch and wrinkle. The expander no longer has a smooth taper and has a visual and tactile depression but it still measures approximately .305 at its widest point.

The only positive outcomes are that the tubing cutter is eliminated as the source of issue as is new versus potentially work hardened once fired brass. I've managed to bugger South African, Lake City, new and once fired Winchester. There is an equipment or setting issue that has clearly yet to be resolved though I have eliminated a couple of variables.

Still looking for ideas if you have them. At this point, I'll be contacting Redding again tomorrow. Never had this kind of trouble even on much more complex equipment.

Thanks much,

Brad

[notenoughguns]

Sounds like the expander button is to close to the top of the die , try screwing it down a few more turns .

[Fritzcat]

notenoughguns, may have figured it. I deprime and FL size in my last step, so my expander is down enough to see about 3/16 of the deprime pin.

[PFDD]

Thanks gents,

Since I use a universal decapper and was also experimenting on the South African Berdan primed cases, I removed the decapping pin from the FL sizing die. I had been running the expander quite high but in one last try after my previous experience last night ruining the four cases, I prepped another new Winchester case in the same fashion (inlcuding the inside and outside lube) and screwed the expander down much further. I ran the case up and could tell by the resistance encountered that I was likely in trouble so I pulled the case out and I'd crumpled the neck again but short of separating it.

I'm now wondering if my Imperial Sizing lube is adequate for the interior neck expansion as I run the case mouth approximately 1/4-3/8 from the top of the expander and the cases go no further. From that point I either crunch and wrinkle the cases or I crunch and separate the neck portion from the shoulder. A distant posibility is that there is something wrong with the die or expander dimensions, but I'm still focused on a failing in my settings or lube. I think I'll try again with a different lube and reset the expander low enough that it would be punching the primers out if I had the decapping pin in place. Might just have to sacrifice a few additional Lake City or Winchester cases and actually punch out the primers. Hate to risk good brass given my "Hall of Shame" collection of crunched and separated cases but will give it another go.

By the way, Redding contacted me by email today to indicate that:

"We don't have any instructions for trim dies. Sorry. They are normally adjusted to make firm contact with the shellholder. If a lot of case sticks above the top of the die, cut it off with a 32 tpi hacksaw blade and file with a fine cut file. If only a little of the case sticks out, just use the file." Not much info there but better than what came with the die....

Thanks again,

Brad

[notenoughguns]

The expander button should be .05 to .07 from the base of the die without de caping pin . I never had to use lube on the expander plug and I've made 1000's of cases without problems , just lubed the outside with lanolin based lube.

[PFDD]

I've been running the expander far too high in the die body. Should have factored that in since the other function of the die is decapping (with the pin in place), so the pin has to be in reach of the fired primer and a bit more to punch it out. Just didn't think it would matter as long as I wasn't pushing the expander to the bottom of the case and buggering it up in the flash hole area.

Another fact I've been pondering is that I've got the Redding T-7 mounted on a Franklin Arsenal portable stand so I could do brass monkey chores in the family room, and I wonder if it imparts enough instability that the press leverage isn't smooth enough. Clearly there is more than sufficient leverage to crunch cases, but obviously that isn't my objective.

I'll try the expander much lower in the die body tonight and will switch out my lube after I've tried repositioning the expander. Failing that, I'll switch to one of the bench mounted presses to see if I'm inducing failures based on new dynamics.

Thank you for your input.

Best,

Brad

[amafrank]

I've been using an RCBS junior press for the full length sizing and decapping so I don't think leverage is the problem. There isn't really much effort required to work on this conversion of .223 to 300-221 since the amount of change to the brass is so slight. The location of the expander ball sounds like the biggest issue in your case. If the neck has entered the sizing portion of the die before the expander does then you are definitely going to have problems. There is just not enough clearance between the die wall and the expander with the case wall in between, especially with the military brass. The part of the case we are using tends to be thicker than a normal neck and will jam up the die or break the case as you've been doing. The only time I've even crumpled a neck is trying to expand a .221 case after annealling it. I have never even wrinkled a Lake City case...... Adjust the expander ball until it bottoms out on the case with the ram fully up and cammed over. You will have to do that with the decapping pin removed or with the primer already out. Once it makes contact with the case back it out a turn or two. You want to make sure you don't bottom out on the cases in practice and there is some variation in the web thickness. This will insure that the expander hits the neck at a point where the die is not supporting and wedging it. That allows the case to expand around the ball. It will then enter the portion of the die that squeezes it down to the proper dimension and then the ball will slip through the case neck from the inside and expand it to the correct finished diameter. As with not enough guns I've run many cases through the program with no lube on the expander and had no problems. It takes a bit more effort on the press handle but not much. I do normally lube because it helps avoid stretching the case necks and putting scratches in them.

Your shell holder should contact the die base and the handle should cam over somewhat. This insures that the die and press springback don't prevent the case from being pushed all the way into the die. You will find that the instructions from most if not all the die and press manufacturers are pretty basic. They assume you know something about what you are doing. I don't know if they are covering their asses for liability reasons or just figureing you should have some idea what you are doing already. In any case thats what boards like this excel in...help for all of us when we are a bit lost. Someone somewhere has had the problems before and figured it out.....

Last suggestion here is to get rid of the south african brass. You can't really use it and with the thicker case walls it has there is a possibility that its bending or otherwise screwing with your dies. There is a large variation in wall thickness between different manufacturers of military brass and that thickness can create big problems. I've had some brass that even neck turning wouldn't save. Bottom line is that if you can't use it get rid of it. The lake city stuff should be fine. I've use LC brass from the early 70's all the way to 06 headstamped brass and had no problems with any of it. If you are having problems with the LC than there is something wrong in your setup and you can use the lake city brass for a control. Its cheap enough and available enough that you can afford to destroy a few cases to get things setup right. Once you get that figured than you can start fiddling with the more expensive commercial brass like Federal or Winchester and not worry about killing cases.....be glad you aren't working with .221 fireball brass, it cost more than twice as much.

Frank