Need advice; buggering up cases trying to convert .223 to .300

[PFDD]

Thanks Fritzcat, I suspect you're right in pointing toward the tubing cutter as the potential source of difficulty as it really does roll in the edges of the cut even though I've tried to increase pressure very slowly. I tried cutting a few a bit long and then used a mill file to bring them back down toward 1.400 in the form and trim die and managed to get a few seemingly viable cases out of the 10-12 I experimented with, but they still didnt' fully chamber. I used the RCBS Trimmate to clean up the chamfer after the mill file treatment.

I'm thinking I can use my angle grinder or Dremel with a cut off wheel for a few more attempts before the chop saw shows up. Avoiding the case separation in the die is a good step forward

Thanks again for your input.

[amafrank]

Since you do have a trim die than don't worry about getting a fancy cutoff wheel until you figure out what the problem is. Run some brass up in the trim die and cut it off using a hacksaw. You might want to leave the die a little bit high for the cut off so that the cases won't trim short. Use a file to trim the cases flat with the top of the die then use a chamfering tool to clean up the inside of the case. Getting rid of the burr inside will help to make sure you aren't getting the expander ball jammed up on it. Once you have a few cases trimmed like this than you can run them into the sizing die lubed outside and inside the neck. The expander ball will grab inside the neck if there is no lube and that can cause troubles too. If the expanders are ball shaped that can create more problems. The good ones have a long taper to them so they don't try and expand the necks all at once.

The reason they don't give you any info on working with .223 is because the cases are supposed to be made from .221 fireball brass. Thats why you have 2 different size expander balls. Don't blame them for not giving info because we are doing something the tools weren't designed for. Some guys are still using .221 brass because they say its more consistant dimensionally and has the proper neck thickness without any extra work. We use .223 brass because its substantially cheaper, it can be found with very consistant internal dimensions and some types will work with no extra work to make the necks the right thickness. That brings us to the last question for you....What kind of .223 brass are you using??? Some types have very thick case walls and will end up doing just the sort of thing you describe, sticking and jamming up in the necks. I've used US commercial brass with no problems though I find the winchester to be the most consistant. I've also used Lake City, Malaysian military and some Korean PMC brass with no issues. I've had problems with the South African brass, Abu Dhabi, Radway green (Brit) and some other military stuff I haven't identified. They all have thick case walls and either don't size well, have such small primer flash holes that they grab the decapping pin, or need the case necks turned in order to use. Tell us what brass you're using and that will help too......


Frank

[PFDD]

Frank,

Thank you for your reply.

On the Form and Trim die, one reason I was hesitating to use a hacksaw was the crowded access on the T-7 turret and the resulting brass debris since I was temporarily working the cases in the family room vice the normal loading room (den). Just trying to be social and not have the boss on my tail. That said, I'll give it a run in the proper environment but I did notice that it seemed like I can't manipulate much variation in OAL. I screwed the die in and backed it off but the result seemed to be the same OAL except for variation in the length of the neck.

I lubed the inside and outside of the case and even rubbed lube directly on the expander which are the long tapered variant not ball shaped. I'm starting to believe my tubing cutter trim is the culprit as Fritzcat suggested and your suggestion of the hacksaw cut or another cleaner cutting tool should not change the brass dimensions as much prior to running the expander through.

Understood on the Redding instructions but the fact is that there are indeed two viable parent cases and as long as both create safe & accurate ammo it seems a bit incomplete to address only a single parent case source. Clearly I didn't come with the complete case forming knowledge set and even the Redding website is spare on instructions and so far the few loading books I've looked at haven't been much help either. Hence the appeal for help here among folks who are far more experienced.

As to the brass, I was using the South African once fired only to see if I could correctly form the cases and will use Lake City almost exclusively after I can produce correctly dimensioned cases to satisfaction. So far I'm glad I went that route as I've buggered up about 8 cases out of 12. No harm no foul on throw-away cases but I more jealously guard cases that are effectively match prepped except that I'm not turning the necks. I don't have all that much time so the "Brass Services" post from Hoser next to mine is fortuitous. I need to get an advertising cut; I'm hooking him up as a representitive of the inept newbee in need of adult assistance.

Best,

Brad

[PFDD]

Update;

Spoke with the tech support folks at Redding and they do have written instructions for using .223 as the parent case so they're sending those and the instructions on the Form and Trim die.

It seems I was too conservative in the F&T setting where I backed it off a full turn from shellholder contact. They instructed me to go to cam over which ought to give me better results.

On the full length sizing using the .30 expander, suggestions were directed at the use of the tubing cutter having constricted the neck too much.

I'll give it another run.

Thanks for your assistance.

[Scalce]

I'd be interested to see those instructions when you get them.

If you have a soft copy.

[PFDD]

Scalce,

So far I do have the instructions in soft copy of the .223 case forming but if anything they're more basic than the .221 instructions. I have the PDF version and you're welcome to it. Nothing yet though on the F&T die. You're welcome to that too when I have it. Redding indicated they might have to snail mail that to me if it wasn't scanned.

Unfortunately I tried 4 more cases tonight without success;
1. South African once fired- snapped the neck off in the FL sizing die using the .30 caliber expander
2. Lake City once fired- same, snapped the neck off
3. Winchester once fired-snapped neck but case stayed together with neck portion rotating
4. Winchester new brass-crumpled neck just before cam over

The cases this evening were cleaned, lubed with Imperial Sizing die in and out and on the expander button. All were rough trimmed with a hacksaw while in the F&T die then inside and outside chamfered before being relubed and trying the FL sizing die. After snapping off the first two necks, I backed off the expander plug until it just touched the neck with the ram fully up and started screwing it down a quarter turn at a time until I felt the case give and the neck seperated but stayed attached to the base allowing full rotation. Final try with a new case and same procedure followed until I felt the neck crunch and wrinkle. The expander no longer has a smooth taper and has a visual and tactile depression but it still measures approximately .305 at its widest point.

The only positive outcomes are that the tubing cutter is eliminated as the source of issue as is new versus potentially work hardened once fired brass. I've managed to bugger South African, Lake City, new and once fired Winchester. There is an equipment or setting issue that has clearly yet to be resolved though I have eliminated a couple of variables.

Still looking for ideas if you have them. At this point, I'll be contacting Redding again tomorrow. Never had this kind of trouble even on much more complex equipment.

Thanks much,

Brad

[notenoughguns]

Sounds like the expander button is to close to the top of the die , try screwing it down a few more turns .