S&W M&P AR in .300 Whisper (factory rifle)

[Mike Bell]

Anybody else see this tonight?

http://www.gunsholstersandgear.com/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2011/11/300_Whisper_Smith_Wesson-275x77.jpg

http://www.gunsholstersandgear.com/2011/11/01/smith-wesson-mp15-300-whisper-300-blackout/

[Spook]

wait! what about the dangerous pressure levels generated by the supersonic ammo :eek::eek::eek: :grin: oh the humanity....

[Titleiiredneck]

So are they are going to chamber in black out or whisper or both? Or do they mean fireball since JD isnot chambering them?

[rsilvers]

I am not sure why they are marketing it as both.

That would be like marking a rifle as 22-250 / 22 Varminter. It just leads to the confusion that has plauged the 6.8 world.

Endless people are going to call them to find out which chamber it has.

[Spook]

What if they copied your chamber and are calling it a Whisper (R)? OMG is nothing sacred?

[Mike Bell]

Smith & Wesson's 300 is only different in that it's chambered in 300 Whisper, a wildcat cartridge that the 300 BLK is remarkably similar to; it is only shorter in overall length, which means that 300 BLK can be safely and accurately fired in a gun chambered in 300 Whisper, which is ballistically identical but a little more expensive

http://www.guns.com/smith-a-wessons-new-map15-in-300-whisper300-aac-blackout.html

[rsilvers]

It is safer to fire Whisper(R) in a BLK chamber than BLK in a Whisper chamber - depending on which Whisper chamber it is. There are at least two and maybe four.

[Spook]

Why on earth would a manufacturer like S&W bother to say it was a Whisper chamber when it wasnt?

I know I'm not a rocket scientist , but I dont see the upside of lying to current or future clientele :confused: particularly when it can be verified.

[Alleycat]

300 Whisper OAL<======
300 Blackout OAL <=====
300-221 FB OAL <====


I wonder if they will come out with 264 LB or the 6.5 Grendel next.

[rsilvers]

Why on earth would a manufacturer like S&W bother to say it was a Whisper chamber when it wasnt?

I know I'm not a rocket scientist , but I dont see the upside of lying to current or future clientele :confused: particularly when it can be verified.

There are plenty of long-throated 308 chambers, and the rifle makers are not lying by saying they are 308 rifles.

[Titleiiredneck]

Yeah, that is incorrect. First, this rifle is actually chambered in 300 BLK, .

Look at the s&w website, says it's chambered for both. Pp
http://www.smith-wesson.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/Category3_750001_750051_757784_-1_Y

[rsilvers]

Yes, well, sales and marketing people don't know. A Whisper(R) chamber would be smaller than a Blackout chamber, so in order to be both, it has to be a Blackout chamber.

[Alleycat]

Yes, well, sales and marketing people don't know. A Whisper(R) chamber would be smaller than a Blackout chamber, so in order to be both, it has to be a Blackout chamber.



I ordered some factory Blackout ammo to find out. I have a SSK Whisper and a Blackout. We shall see.
http://http://www.midwayusa.com/product/187667/remington-premier-match-ammunition-300-aac-blackout-762x35mm-125-grain-open-tip-match-otm-box-of-20
http://i76.photobucket.com/albums/j28/drugs_onFIRE/nuke.jpg

[Spook]

A Whisper(R) chamber would be smaller than a Blackout chamber, so in order to be both, it has to be a Blackout chamber.

How do you know that to be the case?

[rsilvers]

How do I know a Whisper(R) chamber is smaller than a 300 BLK chamber? Because a big ammo maker (not Remington) told me they test their ammo in the smallest of the Whisper chambers because that is the one which gives the highest pressure (this does result in lower velocity ammo though).

Or how do I know that in order to use both in the rifle, it would have to be a BLK chamber? Because that is the deal with 223/5.56mm and 6.8 SAAMI/6.8 SPC-II - smaller chambers raise pressure. So you have to use the largest reamer you rate it for.

[Ned christiansen]

Whatever chamber dimensions they are using, I think we may find that they are calling it Whisper because it is being done n cooperation with JD Jones..... just guessing.

[Alleycat]

http://http://www.hornady.com/new-products/300-whisper



Compatible with guns chambered for the 300 AAC Blackout, the 300 Whisper from Hornady is a reliable performer with or without a suppressor and brings a new level of flexibility to the AR-15 platform.

I guess Hornadys people F'ed up too.

[rsilvers]

I would expect the Remington ammo to go over max SAAMI pressure if you shot it in a tight Whisper(R) chamber.

You can make ammo that will shoot in both (just like making 6.8 ammo) - it just won't reach as much velocity as if you loaded it just for 300 BLK, as Remington does.

[Alleycat]

It looks like Remington would make brass to the Blackout specifications rather than the Whisper specifications. I have 500 new primed Hornady brass and some sample 300 Blackout brass and they spec out exactly the same. They even weigh the same. (83.3 grains give or take a couple of tenths) If Remington made their brass to Blackout spec, it wouldn’t even chamber in a Whisper because of the huge difference in chamber dimensions. I have measured fired brass out of both guns. The neck in the Blackout expands 0.001” more than the Whisper and the shoulder expands 0.003” more than the Whisper. My hand loads will not chamber in the blackout because of the Whisper’s longer throat. Fired, but unsized cases from the Blackout will not chamber in Whisper with finger presser. Both types of brass are identical to the brass I have made for years. The only exception is that I trim a little shorter.
The smallest 300 WTF I know of is the 300-221 Fireball. I have no experience with this chamber. I would think ammo manufactures would load for the smallest chamber or change it enough so that it will not load in the similar chamber for legal reasons. Getting Robert to admit that would be as hard as getting Kwik2sue to admit his agenda. Robert I do understand your reluctance and I have taken up for you much to the chagrin of people I consider good friends, but sometimes it’s better to say nothing at all. Evil gunsmiths that know better would approve. I know you’re a bright guy, you invented this.

http://www.photomosaic.com/

[martineta]

I have contender and encore barrels in 300 Blackout, 300 Whisper and one lonely 300-221 Fireball. I only have a set of 300 whisper dies. All my 300 Whisper reloads work fine in all three chamberings. They slide right in the chambers easily and slide right out after fireing. All shoot excellent. What gives? I'm happy.

[rsilvers]

I have 500 new primed Hornady brass and some sample 300 Blackout brass and they spec out exactly the same. They even weigh the same. (83.3 grains give or take a couple of tenths)

That is because the Hornady brass is 300 BLK spec brass.


If Remington made their brass to Blackout spec, it wouldn’t even chamber in a Whisper because of the huge difference in chamber dimensions.

Who said there is a difference in chamber dimensions when it comes to brass? While I have never seen an SSK drawing, I am under the impression, based on talking to a licensee, that the only significant difference is in the throat.

My hand loads will not chamber in the blackout because of the Whisper’s longer throat.

You have this backwards. The BLK has the longer throat.

I would think ammo manufactures would load for the smallest chamber or change it enough so that it will not load in the similar chamber for legal reasons.

Certainly if you commercially load for Whisper(R), you need to load for the smallest chamber ever called Whisper.

Getting Robert to admit that would be as hard as getting Kwik2sue to admit his agenda. Robert I do understand your reluctance and I have taken up for you much to the chagrin of people I consider good friends, but sometimes it’s better to say nothing at all.

I am not sure I follow you. What am I reluctant to say?

[Alleycat]

That is because the Hornady brass is 300 BLK spec brass.

It's stamped 300 Whisper.



Who said there is a difference in chamber dimensions when it comes to brass? While I have never seen an SSK drawing, I am under the impression, based on talking to a licensee, that the only significant difference is in the throat.
Agreed.

You have this backwards. The BLK has the longer throat.

No I don't. In my SSK Whisper straight from JDJ has a longer throat than the Blackout I own. The 300-221 fireball has a very short throat. Which chambering did you play with? I would be happy to ship my SSK upper to you or AAC for verification.

Certainly if you commercially load for Whisper(R), you need to load for the smallest chamber ever called Whisper.

So the Remington Blackout ammo I just ordered won't chamber in my Whisper?


I am not sure I follow you. What am I reluctant to say?

Just that I understand that there are things you can't say because of legal reasons. I don't blame you for picking your words carefully. If you ever did say Blackout ammo could be shot out of a Whisper someone would try to use it aganst AAC and Remington. I've been on your side, but the comment that Smith & Wesson's people are "wrong" rubs me the wrong way. You may be right, but you could also use some tact. Like I said sometimes it's better to say nothing at all.

[rsilvers]

It's stamped 300 Whisper.

I know, but it is verified to be within 300 AAC BLACKOUT specs, and tested in 300 AAC BLACKOUT guns.

[rsilvers]

No I don't. In my SSK Whisper straight from JDJ has a longer throat than the Blackout I own. The 300-221 fireball has a very short throat. Which chambering did you play with? I would be happy to ship my SSK upper to you or AAC for verification.

Ok, I will remember that I don't really know about SSK chambers. I do know there are at least two, maybe four or more different chambers called 300 Whisper. If you want to be sure you can shoot 300 AAC BLACKOUT ammo, it is best to run a 300 BLK reamer in it.

[rsilvers]

So the Remington Blackout ammo I just ordered won't chamber in my Whisper?

I don't know. We took Remington 221 Fireball and opened it to 30 cal, but kept the same headspace, and picked some radii for the neck and shoulder - and a chamber neck diameter which would work with most 223 and 5.56mm converted brass, and then set the throat so that if you loaded a Sierra 220 to 2.26 OAL, it would be 0.010 from the lands.

[rsilvers]

Just that I understand that there are things you can't say because of legal reasons. I don't blame you for picking your words carefully. If you ever did say Blackout ammo could be shot out of a Whisper someone would try to use it aganst AAC and Remington.

I would not claim you could shoot 300 BLK ammo in a Whisper for many reasons other than legal - I have never tried it.

I've been on your side, but the comment that Smith & Wesson's people are "wrong" rubs me the wrong way. You may be right, but you could also use some tact. Like I said sometimes it's better to say nothing at all.

I see - you are excited that there is a factory rifle chambered in Whisper. Yes, I can understand that.

[sha-ul]

300 Whisper OAL<======
300 Blackout OAL <=====
300-221 FB OAL <====


I wonder if they will come out with 264 LB or the 6.5 Grendel next.

complete derail here, but I remember reading last week that the owners of the 6.5 have surrendered their trademark on the Grendel so that it could be standardized via SAAMI

[rsilvers]

http://img259.imageshack.us/img259/5788/whspertopbarrel.jpg

[sha-ul]

that is actually a pretty good pic Ron, it has almost an art feel to it.

[Mike Bell]

•Chambered in .300 Whisper®
Will also safely fire .300 AAC Blackout.

from the S&W web site

[Titleiiredneck]

from the S&W web site
:bangin:

Lol's

[TCCrewchief76]

Sounds like S&W is using the Whisper notoriety to sell the BLK. Most people have heard about the Whisper over the years. Not so with the BLK being the new kid on the block.

Kevin

[Romeo]

Hello, I was hoping for some help.
I've been reloading over 20 years. Cast my own heads, etc. I have an old friend who has 2 SSK 300Whisper T/C barrels.That's how I originally was exposed to the Whispers.
My Q. I've been looking at the AR uppers available. SSK is a little out of my price range. Legally I need a 16" barrel. I would like an upper which would shoot and cycle w/ super and sub-sonic loads. Would I need an adjustable gas block to do this? The only SSK Ar upper I've seen (16") had an adjustment screw and block on the center of the gas tube.
I've been leaning toward the S&W upper. Hoping you can guide me in the right direction.
I have Foster neck trimmer/ reamers etc. Plan on using Mil. once fired LC brass. I saw HOSER's thread on brass.
The rifle would be used mostly for paper/ hunting, and sub loads for pests. One of my favorite past times is building accurate loads for a particular gun. Also, What should I get for dies? There are a lot out there. I usually go w/ RCBS but I;ve been looking at the Foster and Reddings.

Thanks for the help, Jason

[Romeo]

Sounds like S&W is using the Whisper notoriety to sell the BLK. Most people have heard about the Whisper over the years. Not so with the BLK being the new kid on the block.

Kevin

Chief, maybe. 300 Whisp been around. Have heard things about the BLK in JSOC circles for a while. Don't think it's that new.

[Mike Bell]

Whisper has been around for 20years maybe, but about a year old now for the Blackout :welcome:

[Romeo]

I 'm not new to 300 Whisper. I'm new to the 300 Whisper AR15 upper game. I'ld like advise selecting an AR 15 upper. Looking at the S&W. SSK is a bit more than I can afford. But, if I heard ,"save your pennys kid". I would . I'm looking for accuracy. You got to start some where. I'm not a computer fart. Don't sit here all day. I have a job and have a life. The only other forum I belong to is HKPRO.
I thought this would be a good forum to start before I bought. Now I'm not so sure.

[Hoser]

I 'm not new to 300 Whisper. I'm new to the 300 Whisper AR15 upper game. I'ld like advise selecting an AR 15 upper. Looking at the S&W. SSK is a bit more than I can afford. But, if I heard ,"save your pennys kid". I would . I'm looking for accuracy. You got to start some where. I'm not a computer fart. Don't sit here all day. I have a job and have a life. The only other forum I belong to is HKPRO.
I thought this would be a good forum to start before I bought. Now I'm not so sure.

Have Spook build you one is the best advice I can give.

If you want to go the factory upper route, Noveske builds a solid upper that runs. I have not heard any feedback on the S&W uppers so that generally means good things.

Check out CMMGs uppers.

Go with Redding or Forster for dies.

[Romeo]

Thank you for the advise. I'll PM Spook. Jason

[Tokarev]

I wonder if S&W's decision to mark their barrels has anything to do with not wanting to give "props" to Remington. Something akin to their marking all their automatics chambered in 45ACP as "45 AUTO" rather than acknowledge the "Colt" part of the name.

A guess, that's all it is...

[LouBoyd]

I 'm not new to 300 Whisper. I'm new to the 300 Whisper AR15 upper game. I'ld like advise selecting an AR 15 upper. Looking at the S&W. SSK is a bit more than I can afford. But, if I heard ,"save your pennys kid". I would . I'm looking for accuracy. You got to start some where. I'm not a computer fart. Don't sit here all day. I have a job and have a life. The only other forum I belong to is HKPRO.
I thought this would be a good forum to start before I bought. Now I'm not so sure.

If you're looking for accuracy, is that accuracy for a 300-221 variant or accuracy for a an AR-15? There are many cartridges which can shoot from an AR-15 which give better accuracy including the 223. Bullet and load selection of course matters. The 300-221 variants have some useful traits, especially for suppressed subsonics, but superior accuracy and long range are not among them.

Other than 22LR the 300-221 has the least energy of any of the cartridges which are commonly shot from an AR-15. The primary accuracy problems of the 300-221 variants are vertical stringing related to low velocity and and wind deflection related to low velocity and/or low BC bullets. Those aren't caused by rifle,brass, or bullets quality.

[Mike Bell]

Tokarev. I dont know but I think that S&W may have contacts with JD through their ownership of Thomson Center which has been making barrels with JD for years.

[Romeo]

One of the main reasons I'd like the 300 Whisper or 300 BlackOut is my main rifle calibers are: .338 , .308, and .223. I usually buy my bullet heads in bulk.

I've seen my friend shoot sub moa 5 shot groups w/ a 10" or 12" scoped ssk 300 Whisper T/C at a 100 yds. He was using 180gr Win Silvertips and I believe AA#9 or #7. 221 FIREBall brass resized to 300. He said velocity was a little over 1,000 fps. He's one of the best marksman I've ever shot with. Unfortunately he's been in very bad health.

As stated earlier, Paper, deer, and coyote at ranges 200 yds and less. Would I get better accuracy/ velocity from the 300 Blackout over the Whisper? I would like to stay w/ an AR platform, mags, and .308 cal. heads. I usually can get 2" groups at a 100 yds with my stock HK91's and FALs w/ open sights. Scoped AR 300 Whisper/ BlkOut should do better?

Thanks again, Jason