New .30 bullet idea

[rumlover]

What if we took a 240 or 250 gr hollow point, like the SMK, and cut groves into it like the lapua subsonic? What might it do to the BC? I know it would reduce friction, but would there be any other benefits?

I was thinking of a copper solid base with very soft lead front. Similar to a Swift A-Frame with a SMK exterior with thin jacket tip and the Lapua Subsonic groves (I think that's called swagging--could be wrong).

There is also the other side of the stability v/s weight v/s length equation and that would be changing the bullet materials to something heavier than lead/copper; perhaps tungsten, got any depleated uranium?

Is there anyone that could make something like that?

[Artful]

Barnes makes claim of benefits of lower fouling, better accuracy, greater velocity, and lower pressure. but it's copper/zinc alloy - no Uranium

[GREYGHOSTt]

i think the jacket is too thin to cut groves in it.
corbin makes a bullet serrator to cut legnth wise groves.

[rumlover]

I'm not suggesting modifying SMKs but using parts of it's design with parts of other designs to get completely new designs.

[rumlover]

clarification:

My thinking was to create a heavy (for highest possible energy), high BC (for flater shooting), short pill that would stabalize in the slower twist barrels for those that don't want to buy a special barrel. If a heavier alloy could be used, you would be able to get 240gr (or more) in a design shorter than the SMK 240. Then fuse the alloy to the copper jacket but don't fill up the copper cavity as high as the SMK (the SMK is a copper "cup" filled with lead from the tip--the reason it's hollow point allowed by the Geneva Conventions). This would leave a larger area of the thin jacket unsupported by the internal alloy and therefore leave more jacket to deform and enact torque on the remainder of the bullet. The swagging would reduce friction, although I'm not sure that's a good thing. Higher friction means more powder in the case to achieve the same velocity. Higher case capacity means greater consistency with most powders (not all). The boat tail is debatable. I get excellent stability with the flat base Hornady 220 RNSP, but the boattails of the SMKs yield much higher BC equating to more downrange energy, accuracy and less drop.

You could also go the Barnes route with a pure alloy bullet and pre-cut internal fracture points to make it expand.

Despite all this, I'm not convinced that an expanding sub round should be desired at all. If it doesn't exit the body and you are hunting in anything except open country, the lack of a blood trail could likely lead to the waste of a game animal. I have a friend who shot ballistic tips out of his 270 one deer season (back before fused bullets came into being) and the rounds detonated when hitting enough bone--therefore never exiting. In the absense of a blood trail, he assumed he missed. The following spring we found 3 deer with shoulder or spine wounds rotting in the beaver pond that we had designated as a sanctuary not to be entered under any circumstances during the season. I assume the entrance wound filled up with guts or fat and shut off the blood flow from that wound.

[justshoot]

Ya blood loss and trail are sometimes Good. (I Agree) SMK's are BadAss.
but FACT that I can not find any dispute about. Is that Energy that ends up passing threw. Is energy Wasted and Lost. The Huge FT/LB's of energy delivered in the Whisper/30-221 subsonic platform is the whole reason that it here. Hunting with it on larger game is going to be a whole different mindset from with what is commercially available for bullets.

Also I got No Doubt that the Yaw and tumble of a SMK or other BC shaped bullet designed 'Specifically' for Long Range BC and Target accuracy is deadly but you are not loosing any Ballistic Coefficiency or accuracy with a Round-Nose soft point. I also think that the flight and shape are more suited for Subsonic travel threw the air. As in example of one of the most accurate shaped bullets in the target world. The .22 rimfire in target match load.

I am 'ONLY' concerned on keeping this discussion with subsonic Vel.
BC (Ballistic Coefficiency ) of bullet design of SMK's are strictly for supersonic speed, Maximum Long range flight Accuracy and to maintain the longest flight possible with the given supersonic velocity behind it. That 'Specific' BC shape helps the bullet reach the given target before it falls transonic and the flow-field of moving air that surrounds the projectile that is Flowing supersonic is Not ripped apart before it gets there as the bullet falls transonic to subsonic. The BC of the SMK shape is there so it makes it to it's Long Range target before the bullet Falls Transonic to Subsonic. BC keeps it in the most efficient flight and the most efficient flow-field of moving air that surrounds the bullet in flight in a Supersonic race to the target is efficient. We are talking Subsonic bullets in flight.
Also I got No Doubt that the Yaw and tumble of a SMK or other BC shaped bullet designed 'Specifically' for Long Range BC and Target accuracy is deadly but you are not loosing any Ballistic Coefficiency or accuracy with a Round-Nose soft point. I also think that the flight and shape are more suited for Subsonic travel threw the air. As in example of one of the most accurate shaped bullets in the target world. The .22 rimfire in target match load.

What maybe achieved in what I am talking about would defiantly be a custom bullet modification for sure. But compared to what is for sale on the open market now with the SMK's. The SMK's sound pretty NASTY to say the least. For something so easy to buy, Load and Shoot. And also be pretty Deadly. Making it possibly, "The Best Choice for the money."
I am not sure that just because a Bullet designed Specifically Long Range flight tumbles and also exits the animal is sub-par to a large HP that expands and does not exit.
The subsonic Vel. large mouth HP's have a good performance record of delivering major tissue damage and a wound channel in Pistol calibers that are moving subsonic. Mocking this pistol cal. bullet design may not be such a bad thing for game bullet moving subsonic. Pus the huge plus of FT/Lb's gained with bullets used on the whisper or 30-221 Fireball cartridge.
.

[320pf]

Originally Posted by justshoot

I am 'ONLY' concerned on keeping this discussion with subsonic Vel.
BC (Ballistic Coefficiency ) of bullet design of SMK's are strictly for supersonic speed, Maximum Long range flight Accuracy and to maintain the longest flight possible with the given supersonic velocity behind it. That 'Specific' BC shape helps the bullet reach the given target before it falls transonic and the flow-field of moving air that surrounds the projectile that is Flowing supersonic is Not ripped apart before it gets there as the bullet falls transonic to subsonic. The BC of the SMK shape is there so it makes it to it's Long Range target before the bullet Falls Transonic to Subsonic. BC keeps it in the most efficient flight and the most efficient flow-field of moving air that surrounds the bullet in flight in a Supersonic race to the target is efficient. We are talking Subsonic bullets in flight.
Also I got No Doubt that the Yaw and tumble of a SMK or other BC shaped bullet designed 'Specifically' for Long Range BC and Target accuracy is deadly but you are not loosing any Ballistic Coefficiency or accuracy with a Round-Nose soft point. I also think that the flight and shape are more suited for Subsonic travel threw the air. As in example of one of the most accurate shaped bullets in the target world. The .22 rimfire in target match load.
.

I might be misunderstanding you discussion.

Your duscussion is correct with respect to sectional density (SD), but not ballistic coefficeint (BC). Bullets shape has a significant effect on BC. Moreover, bullets with a high BC retain velocity better in all flight regimes (supersonic, taransonic, and sub-sonic) than the same weight bullet with a low BC. The big "deal" with the 300-221 fireball (a.k.a. 300 whisper) is that is can launch bullets with very high BC's at both sub-sonic and super sonic velocities. Because it can use very high BC bullets, it significantly outperforms sub-sonic pistol bullets like 9mm 40 and 45 cal.

320pf

[justshoot]

You are probably right and I am wrong with the High BC long range bullets. I was not aware that High BC LR bullet design translated over to subsonic Vel. efficiently like you are saying with the 30-221.
I have shoot a lot of match .22 and pistol. with accuracy on them. They are pretty sweet. but for Hunting I only shoot .22 match to about 150 yrd effectivly and pistol 25 yrd. I do a lot of LR with centerfire rifle also.
(to Me) Hunting, long Range on the 30-221 pushing 200+ heavies is under 300 yrd. just for the fact of limits of scope elevation and the lag time to even get to 300 yrd. and beyond. even to 500 yrd. there can be 80 and over 90 MOA in elev. needed to get there. (like over 400 inches) With almost 2 sec in lag time.
For 30-221 Realisticaly, real life for 'Hunting' subsonic that (IMHO) would be shots 200 yrd and under. There is a big differance in BC using the SMK's over the Hornady sp interlocks for examle. @ 300 yrd range the SMK's out perform the Hornady's by over 2 MOA and @ 500 yrd they out perform by 8+ MOA in elevation.

But in 200 yrd in Hunting with both the SMK's and Hornady's the span closes.
The SMK's @ 100 and 200 yrd. is 7.5 and 24.25
The Hornady's @ 100 and 200 yard. is 7.5 and 25.50
At this point for hunting I am Really Interested in what will give me the best impact energy/Damage with best accuracy. I would prefer Not to pass threw and waist energy. but that is the problem for hunting.

OK also
Subsonic, Can the SMK's or the Hornady's both actually even keep a RPM spin ballance to even go out beyond 300 - 500 - 700 yard and keep stable and Not key Hole ???
If they can Not it really does not matter on the BC anyway.
ONLY The Criticle use of BC in flight would Only be important to. Which one can make it farther till stating to Yaw a tumble in flight. To key hole on impact.
.

[rumlover]

Again, hunting with subs is like long range bow hunting. It doesn't matter how much energy remains in the body cavity, both a pass through and a non-pass through will make the kill.** However, If you only have a .3" diameter hole in the body (no exit wound), there is a very high probability of that hole being sealed off and the deer not being recovered. Like in bow hunting, the exit wound is very large allowing a lot of blood to spill out and a much higher recovery rate. Is the goal to put meat in the freezer or just bullets in bodies? Since we are mostly talking about 30 cal bullets, even a complete bullet stoppage in the body will not deliver enough energy to stop the animal in it's tracks unless the central nervous system (spine) is hit. There is very little hydrostatic shock associated with these loads.

For max distance, i suggest stopping at 300y. Anything beyond that has a very high failure rate no matter wether it is stable or tumbling--assuming your goal is harvesting game not punching paper. I have heard of guys punching clean holes at 500+ yards with 300 whispers and reasonable accuracy.

**This depends on you doing your part, knowing your dope, range and good shot execution. According to data pac; A sierra 240 at 1050fps, zeroed at 100 drops 32.16" with 518 ft/lb at 200y. A 220 RNSP with the same speed and zero drops 34.8" with 415 ft/lbs at 200y. A 220 SMK with the same speed and zero drops 32.4" with 468 ft/lbs at 200y. 2.4" on a deer is enough to miss a vital organ--especially if its a first round and the velocity dumps as is sooo common with sub loads. Nevermind the fact that at 200y with a carbine or pistol set up (most common for sub shooting) you're not likely to have the most stable platform and perfect hold on the target which would enlarge the margin of error. Also, this would lead to putting more energy on target at any range due to the higher BC.

[justshoot]

Good discussion and some good points made by you.
Huge holdovers for sure. I threw some of the bullet BC/range info into the Perry systems last night and it's crazy realistic to even attempt to any accuracy 500 and beyond with a platform even set up proper for LR with the 30-221.
I still put a 25 moa base on my bolt with a Mk-4 LR though. ....
but I been lobbing lead long enough to know the odds for achieved accuracy with this.
.