Greetings from a new member and bullets ?'s

[Greywuuf]

Hello all, interesting and informative sight. Let me start with a bit of Background and then some questions for you all.
First I have played with the 300 whisper in a 10" contender some for a couple of years, secondly I will be building an upper for an AR as the money and parts come in. I am an amature gunsmith ( still studying and.. so not taking in "off the street" work) and semi accomplished bulletsmith. I have been making ULD/VLD style .308 bullets that I have used in my .300 Winnie for a couple of years and have played with many differant weight/length combo's and several differant core materials ( lead, Tungsten, Nylon, and copper multi jackets and steel cup/inserts)
I have on order the needed dies to add a Rebated Boattail to my ULD bullet and was wondering if any of you had experience with this type of bullet . For those of you wondering what in the heck I am talking about it is like the boat tail used by Lapua in I beleive the Sencar line. I beleive that in a subsonic aplication there would be many benefits. I am trying to get permision to post an article outlining some of them. Until then any info you wish to share or questions you would like to ask me would be welcomed. I plan to do some rather exhaustive chrony/ accuracy test and post my findings here if anyone is interested. Also I beleive that I can change a bullets stability and sensitivity to twist rates to some extent by varying the center of balance by using lighter or heavier core material, have any of you had trouble with or succes with the heavier bullets, and are any or them close but not quite ? I am hoping to be able to make about 240 grains that reliably stabize with the RBT I think it will be worthwhile and hopefully the info will be usefull to some of you.

To much winter on my hands
Dan in Alaska

[JF]

Are you using the Corbin dies and presses to make your bullets? They have an interesting article about subsonic bullets on their website. I would love to be able to afford their complete setup to make my own soft, heavy bullets for subsonic hunting applications. The problem is that I don't want to put out that much money for custom bullets and then not have what I was was hoping to have from a subsonic performance standpoint.

If you are not trying to shoot game with subsonic bullets (and trying special bullets to get expansion etc), it would seem that you would have better results by just shooting a match type bullet backwards. The teardrop shape is supposed to give you the best subsonic performance. My Whisper shoots them great.

[Greywuuf]

JF, Yes I am using Corbin eqipment. Since you are familiar with their sight I would suggest you read about the RBT. Two things about the backwards bullet bothers me ( though you are correct stability is improved and drag is much reduced, at least base drag ) one I have been shooting them Supersonic at Loooong range ( 300 win magnum ) and I guess I am hung up on B.C numbers, second, the extreme boattail does nothing good for your bore ( directing hot gas around the bullet) or for muzzle dispersion ( again the gas readily flows around the bullet ) most likely the gas cutting of the bore is a non issue with low pressure and speed subsonic rounds from the whisper but the BC could be a real concern if you wish to stretch the range.

Also by using a little Tungsten I was hoping to push the bullet weight up a bit without becoming too unstable. In this case I am eating the cost of the equipment ( since I have most of it allready ) and hoping we might all learn from it. If I get something working well I might even be talked out of a handfull of them for other people to try. If anyone has any experience with some of the longer heavier bullets I would like to hear it.

Thanks
Dan

[300whisper_newbie]

Originally Posted by JF

Are you using the Corbin dies and presses to make your bullets? They have an interesting article about subsonic bullets on their website. I would love to be able to afford their complete setup to make my own soft, heavy bullets for subsonic hunting applications. The problem is that I don't want to put out that much money for custom bullets and then not have what I was was hoping to have from a subsonic performance standpoint.

If you are not trying to shoot game with subsonic bullets (and trying special bullets to get expansion etc), it would seem that you would have better results by just shooting a match type bullet backwards. The teardrop shape is supposed to give you the best subsonic performance. My Whisper shoots them great.

JF,

Are you saying that you load standard 240gr SMK's backwards into the case?? Could you please post more info/load data/accuracy etc regarding this. Sounds quite interesting!!

--Chris

[JF]

I shoot the 30 caliber 220s and 200s not the 240s. I have yet to try the Sierra 240s because I don't know if they are worth the extra $ for 20 more grains. I guess I should plunk down the $150+ for a 500 round box of them some day.

Yes I often shoot the 220s and 200s backwards. At subsonic speeds, a bullet's rear causes more drag than the tip. This is something that goes against what we have always been taught. But most articles on bullets are written about super fast bullets used on very long range shots.

At subsonic speeds for hunting applications, most of the bullet's energy is usually wasted since it passed through flesh and goes out the other side. By turning the bullet backwards, you are in effect, shooting more of a flat point and this transfers more of the energy to the game animal instead of the ground behind him. I wouldn't take a very long range shot at game animal with a subsonic load so I don't care if my 600 yard drop changes with them.

I have also had good results with using a pair of pliers and twisting the lead tip off a Sierra 200gr soft point bullet. I will then hand file or use my grinder to flatten the tip by eye and make sure to leave a nice sharp corner on it. At 100 to 150 yards, I can not tell any difference with group sizes. The backwards bullets (subsonic) also do not open up my group sizes at these ranges.

These flatter tips both seem to do more damage on game shots that I have taken with them. Last month, I tried one of the subsonic 200gr flat tips on the shoulder of a large Spanish goat at about 80 yards. It cracked the large shoulder bone good and he dropped. He then got up and tried to limp off on his 3 good legs. I had to follow up with a head shot to put him down. For the other goats and axis deer I took on this trip, I shot them all in the head and they didn't budge.

[Greywuuf]

I suppose I should mention that I am not trying to create a hunting bullet. Living in Alaska most of the game I take is what I would consider to large to shoot subsonic with anything short of Very heavy bullets in 50 Cal, also I am prevented from hunting anything with a supressor. I am mostly interested in retaining energy at long range ( one of the design criteria for the round ) just because ... well I dont know why.. cause I want to I guess. Secondly Jf you are most correct and do exactly as I do with my "back up" loads in most handguns ( revolvers) The large metplat ( flat) does more damage than it has a right to and hits hard it also make judging range VERY critical as the typical bullet drop from a large heavy slow flat bullet is like shooting with a trajectory shaped like a rainbow ( you can compensate but it is interesting ) One of the neat things about the heavy bullets is how well they retain energy and velocity at longer ranges.

[JF]

Greywuff,

I find that all subsonic shots tend to be curved like a rainbow regardless of shape at the distnances I am shooting them (no VERY long range shots). When I file the tip off a bullet or shoot it backwards, I have not noticed any additional drop at 100 to 150 yards. They have been shooting to the same place.

From what I have seen, the flat tips are harder to keep going at supersonic speeds than at subsonic speeds. The fast ones are constantly trying to keep breaking the speed of sound and this is where the bullet shape becomes more important. If one shoots subsonic bullets through their chronograph at longer distances, you will be surprized at how much retained velocity they have. Just don't miss and hit your chrony!!!!!

On a side note, I recently tried a load of 220gr Hornady round nose bullets at subsonic speed. The were horrible for some reason in the one barrel I tried them in. I could not get them to group at all. I would have thought that the shorter bullet at the same weight (220) would have stabilized easier in my 1:8 twist barrel. My guess is that they are slightly undersized for my slightly oversized bore - but that is just a guess. I need to try them in another gun and do some more testing before I figure this one out.

Have a great day!

[patriot762]

For Greywuuf:

I'm interested in your ULD bullet designs. This summer I came up with a composite, almost mechanical bullet design for soft targets at subsonic velocities. the bullet would provide consistant 200% expansion. It would implement either sintered tungsten or polymerized tungsten inserts and either a copper or polymerized tungsten filler to hold the inserts. The bullets would have to be cast, not swaged, so using the corbin press wouldn't work. ( I visited corbin last spring, since i live about 70 miles away, he has a whole business plan worked out for those interested in doing bullet making for a living)

I ask Corbin all about rebated boat tails, and tried to get some info on the 30 cal ULD bullet shown on his website, but I think i remember that someone he sold a press to made that particular bullet. I believe "Extreme Shock Ammunition" is made on Corbin presses.

Anyway, I guess i would have to send a drawing to really communicate what sort of composite bullet i'm talking about. Hopefully i'll be able to produce them in 30 and 40 caliber, for the whisper and 10mm auto. Maybe 45 auto too.

Let me know what kind of experience you have with the nylon and tungsten in your bullet making endeavors.

Thanks,


papa

[Greywuuf]

To Patriot762
Send me a PM with an e-mail and we will talk. I have to caution you I have started a lot of projects and then get involved in everyday life ( kids house money) again and things tend to remain untested. I have the 30 uld die set up and have turned out a few bullets. Shot a few even, but never at long range or done any serious testing on them. I could probably send you a couple if you are interested. Might take me a while as I am leaving town for T giving and bringing a bigger lathe and mill home with me... so I got shop projects on my mind for a while.