Subsonic - 220gr RN vs 240gr MK

[Murmur]

I've been using 240gr matchkings at subsonic velocitys on goats with OK success.
Place the bullet in the head or neck puts them down instantly but forget trying a shoulder shot - they don't even know thev'e been shot.
Question is would a 220gr RN bullet perform better on shoulder shots - would they even expand at all??
Has anyone tried a supersoft cast lead bullet with ultra large hollowpoint to initate expansion at these speeds???

[GunGeek]

Murmur,
The SMK's were not built to expand at any velocity. The HP is a product of manufacturing and benefit to stability.
As for shoulder shots, I can't imagine that getting hit with 240grains at 900-1000fps (sounds alot like a .45ACP) would not be noticed. In soft tissue the SMK would likely pass right through but any strike on hard bone is bound to do considereable damage whether the bullet expands or not. How much more expansion you can get out of a 220grain RNSP at this same velocity is questionable. These bullets were designed for the 30cal magnums and much higher velocities.
Basically the ultimate would be a bullet designed for a pistol in a rifle caliber. Reliable expansion at low velocities.

Once I get back home and have a chance to shoot some, I have a plan to do some expansion and penetration tests on various 300Whisper loads.

[Murmur]

Unless you landed the 240gr MK on the point of the shoulder ( Yes they do tumble - but only if landed on heavy bone) they would carry on walking doing their thing. If it wasn't for a spectator i would have thought with one animal I missed all three shots when in fact all slid past the ribs into the chest with the animal making a 500m dash before expiring. So until I find an expanding bullet looks like head & neck shots only.
I wonder if pure lead cast bullets would expand at subsonic velocity. Has anyone tried this out?

[Wrangler]

You reminded me of a hunting trip I sort of took once. My hunting pal came by early one Saturday morning and said come with me to hunt deer. I got my trusty old 3006 with the 180 grain Federals I had never missed with and away we went. Several hours later we were bouncing through the mountain peaks kicking does out of the road when I spied a buck on top of a mountain in a kind of saddle shaped depression near the top. Once stopped I looked through the scope and sure enough there he was waiting in plain view. I decided to use the roof of the truck to steady the gun and took aim at the exposed shoulder. Just as I squeezed the triggger my friend took his foot of the brake and the truck lurched forward a bit. It looked like I finally had a miss with that gun and load as the deer appeared to duck into the saddle for cover. I began scrambling up the hill with my gun at the ready knowing he would break cover and run as I approached over the dry Southwest Texas mounytain . Back at the truck I could hear advice coming up behind me. The closer I got ther surer I got I was about to have to try a very fast running shot. finally, I was practically on top of where he had to be and worried about getting run over as he sprang out of cover. Still, no movement. I looked into the brush next to me and there he was stone cold dead. The shoulder shot had been thrown off alright and hit him just at the base of the skull on his neck. He never knew what hit him. We dragged him to the road and gutted him there. I had him sacked and in the pickup and home by noon. Old Betsy had done it again. Not me but the Great Spirit of the hunt was who guided that bullets flight that morning and saved my reputation. All true hunters I know have meet that spirit at least once. We keep going back to meet him again.

[pmc]

I have question 220 RN vs 240 SMK performance myself. Just today I was at the range doing some very unscientific testing. Shooting water soaked phone books.

As you can see neither expanded at 1050 fps. Although the SMK did penetrate about 4" deeper (approx 14" vs 10")

I have observed this lack of expansion in phone books before and in Easterm Whitetails I have shot. I am working with a bulletmaker right now to get some heavy 30 cal bullet's with light jackets in hopes of acheiving more expansion.

Pmc

[Murmur]

Hey thanks for the usefull test information. I had always meant to try this out myself but never had the time. Looks like all the whisper boys will have to wait until a bullet manufacturer comes up with something suitable. I bet they would end up selling a few if they came up with something that worked.

[Bigfoot]

Guys, I know this is a slow fourm so I know that you've all read the Hawk bullet thread just below. Go to http://longrangehunting.com/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php and search for Richard Graves or Wildcat Bullets if you think I'm full of it. The man himself offered to make bullets just for your application, and he often mails out test samples FOR FREE! And you say you will have to WAIT until some manufacturer somewhere makes something suitable? Amazing.

I guess if the horse isn't thirsty enough and wont drink then you may as well let him find the water on his own.

[pmc]

Richard is exactly who I am dealing with. I am waiting for him to get his jackets together for heavy 30 cals. I think we could end up with a great product from him.

Pmc