Need advice; buggering up cases trying to convert .223 to .300

[PFDD]

First post here; been lurking, reading, ordering parts and have a 300/221 AR-based build almost complete but for cutting and rebending the gas tube. Thought I'd put a few cases together today. I'm relatively experienced loading .45 ACP, .308 and .223 ammo on both progressive and single stage presses but I've never formed cases before.

Here are the dies I'm using;
Redding form and trim die with extended shellholder
Redding small base (body only) sizing die
Redding 300/221 3-piece deluxe die set with FL sizing die, Neck sizing die and seating die and two sizing buttons; .270 and .30

I've ordered the Harbor Freight Chop Saw and it's inbound so I trimmed a few sample cases to both 1.400 and 1.355 using a tubing cutter. I tried trimming a few before and a few after running them through the form and trim die.

Here are the issues I'm having making cases;

I've snapped two case necks off when running the .30 caliber expander through the neck even though the outside and inside of the cases are lubed with Imperial Sizing lube. Fortunately I've been able to clear the necks using a tapered brass punch since I don't yet have the stuck case remover but I'll have to order it given my experience so far.

I've also crumpled three necks trying to run the .30 caliber expander through though I generally get zero resistance running the .270 expander through.

The brass I was experimenting with were South African cast offs (Berdan primed) that were of course disposable anyway, but then I tried the same process on a LC case and I snapped off a neck on it too. The brass was cleaned but not deprimed because I was using the Berdan primed cases initially.

Obviously I'm not doing something right but I'm using plenty of lube, and tried a couple of different sequences; trimming first, form and trim die followed by trimming, small base die first, then form and trim, FL resizing die with both expanding buttons in sequence; .270 and .30. Not sure where I'm failing but clearly I've not been successful.

I had planned on case forming using primarily LC brass and since I'm relatively close to the Quantico Marine Corp base some of the cases could have been fired in a SAW hence the precaution of the small base die.

I did manage to make a couple of decent cases but none would chamber fully even one that I seated a 220 Grain SMK to an overall length of 2.260. My barrel is from TP555 and though I forgot to order a chamber gauge with the barrel, I have one coming soon.

The press I was using was using was a Redding T-7. I used a RCBS Trimmate to clean up the chamfering on the case mouth. When I go into production mode after figuring out where I'm failing, I have a Giraud with the 300/221 case holder that I'll bring to bear for final trimming duty.

Clearly I shouldn't have the level of resistance I'm seeing with the .30 caliber expander and I checked it with the calipers to ensure it was indeed .30 (it was).

Seems there are two completely different schools of thought on the best source of .300 Whisper brass (.221 or .223). I've seen reasoned opinions in both camps so I'm unsure if all else was equal, but I'd like to use the .223 if possible since I have a fair number of cases already.

So in summary, what the heck am I doing wrong?

Your advice is more than welcome and appreciated.

Best,

Brad

[I Shooter]

It is my understanding that you are using 223 brass. Then you are cutting off just below the neck. Then you are running them through the 270 die? Why. The case is already bigger than the 30 why would you wont to go to the 270 then bring it back up to the 30. Lube the hell out of the cases inside and out then run them through the 30 die. It should work.

[amafrank]

Not sure why you're having problems and really not sure why the .270 expander is involved at all....this is a .308.

The only thing I can think of is that you must be annealling the case necks prior to the sizing and that is something you don't want to do when you are making a big change in dimensions. I find that running the .223 cases into my trim die (CH4D) and then into the full length sizer die with the .308 expander works great. I've never crushed a case neck that way. Sometimes I trim the cases prior to running them into the trim die, sometimes I actually use the trim die to trim. I did have a lot of problems trying to neck up .221 fireball cases and I did crush a few necks and split a couple too before going to the much easier to work with .223.

Hope something here helps out.

Frank

[Scalce]

You are not using the extended shellholder on the non trim dies right?

[PFDD]

Thanks gentlemen,

I am using .223 cases and received no instructions with the Form and Trim die and the Redding instructions that came with the 300/221 dies only related to forming cases from .221, so I'm operating a bit in the dark and obviously fumbling.

I wasn't sure that the Form and Trim die was giving me the proper neck diameter so I ran the .270 expander button though first followed by the .30 caliber button per the instructions included with the dies. Since I encountered friction with the .270 button only when the tubing cutter closed down the neck opening a bit too much, I will gladly omit the extra and unneeded step.

I'm not annealing the cases first and thought I had plenty of lube but clearly something is inadequate beyond my knowledge.

It's kind of a pisser that the Redding instructions only address .221 as the parent cases and you're supposed to intuit how to set up the Form and Trim die and don't even know you need the extended shellholder until you come up short the first time you try to use it. I'll contact Redding later today.

I will try a few more cases using more lube this time but will probably wait until I have the chop saw instead of the tubing cutter. I tried a couple of cases using the tubing cutter followed by a mill file while the case was still in the F&T die but it seems the shortest I can rough trim the case in the F&T is 1.400 so bringing them down to 1.355 requires final trim tools.

Thanks for your comments. So far more lube looks to be the consensus.

[PFDD]

Scalce,

Good question, but no, I'm switching out the shellholder between dies and it's a pain but at least the turret of the T-7 allows me to keep the dies all mounted and only switch out the shellholder.

Thanks for the input though. I'm clearly missing something.

[Fritzcat]

The tube cutter may be your problem. I have only done 350 cases and biult my upper about a month ago, but have had no problems. My cases are 2nd fired Rem and a Win and LC slip ins. I only bought the Redding Form Die and Redding 2 Die FL. I first tumble, lube with lanolin spray then run threw Form die using My RCBS Match Extended shell holder. Tumble off lube, cut behind shoulder with grinder with 1/16 blade, chamfer inside with drill press with counter-sink. trim to 1.360 using RCBS power trimmer with standard cutter, lube with lanolin spray, Full size and deprime using Redding FL with 30 cal expander and RCBS regular shell holder bumping it against the die for max sizing as per instructions, Tumble, trim to 1.355 with RCBS Power Trimmer with 3-way cutter head. All have chambered good and no destroyed cases.

[PFDD]

Thanks Fritzcat, I suspect you're right in pointing toward the tubing cutter as the potential source of difficulty as it really does roll in the edges of the cut even though I've tried to increase pressure very slowly. I tried cutting a few a bit long and then used a mill file to bring them back down toward 1.400 in the form and trim die and managed to get a few seemingly viable cases out of the 10-12 I experimented with, but they still didnt' fully chamber. I used the RCBS Trimmate to clean up the chamfer after the mill file treatment.

I'm thinking I can use my angle grinder or Dremel with a cut off wheel for a few more attempts before the chop saw shows up. Avoiding the case separation in the die is a good step forward

Thanks again for your input.

[amafrank]

Since you do have a trim die than don't worry about getting a fancy cutoff wheel until you figure out what the problem is. Run some brass up in the trim die and cut it off using a hacksaw. You might want to leave the die a little bit high for the cut off so that the cases won't trim short. Use a file to trim the cases flat with the top of the die then use a chamfering tool to clean up the inside of the case. Getting rid of the burr inside will help to make sure you aren't getting the expander ball jammed up on it. Once you have a few cases trimmed like this than you can run them into the sizing die lubed outside and inside the neck. The expander ball will grab inside the neck if there is no lube and that can cause troubles too. If the expanders are ball shaped that can create more problems. The good ones have a long taper to them so they don't try and expand the necks all at once.

The reason they don't give you any info on working with .223 is because the cases are supposed to be made from .221 fireball brass. Thats why you have 2 different size expander balls. Don't blame them for not giving info because we are doing something the tools weren't designed for. Some guys are still using .221 brass because they say its more consistant dimensionally and has the proper neck thickness without any extra work. We use .223 brass because its substantially cheaper, it can be found with very consistant internal dimensions and some types will work with no extra work to make the necks the right thickness. That brings us to the last question for you....What kind of .223 brass are you using??? Some types have very thick case walls and will end up doing just the sort of thing you describe, sticking and jamming up in the necks. I've used US commercial brass with no problems though I find the winchester to be the most consistant. I've also used Lake City, Malaysian military and some Korean PMC brass with no issues. I've had problems with the South African brass, Abu Dhabi, Radway green (Brit) and some other military stuff I haven't identified. They all have thick case walls and either don't size well, have such small primer flash holes that they grab the decapping pin, or need the case necks turned in order to use. Tell us what brass you're using and that will help too......


Frank

[PFDD]

Frank,

Thank you for your reply.

On the Form and Trim die, one reason I was hesitating to use a hacksaw was the crowded access on the T-7 turret and the resulting brass debris since I was temporarily working the cases in the family room vice the normal loading room (den). Just trying to be social and not have the boss on my tail. That said, I'll give it a run in the proper environment but I did notice that it seemed like I can't manipulate much variation in OAL. I screwed the die in and backed it off but the result seemed to be the same OAL except for variation in the length of the neck.

I lubed the inside and outside of the case and even rubbed lube directly on the expander which are the long tapered variant not ball shaped. I'm starting to believe my tubing cutter trim is the culprit as Fritzcat suggested and your suggestion of the hacksaw cut or another cleaner cutting tool should not change the brass dimensions as much prior to running the expander through.

Understood on the Redding instructions but the fact is that there are indeed two viable parent cases and as long as both create safe & accurate ammo it seems a bit incomplete to address only a single parent case source. Clearly I didn't come with the complete case forming knowledge set and even the Redding website is spare on instructions and so far the few loading books I've looked at haven't been much help either. Hence the appeal for help here among folks who are far more experienced.

As to the brass, I was using the South African once fired only to see if I could correctly form the cases and will use Lake City almost exclusively after I can produce correctly dimensioned cases to satisfaction. So far I'm glad I went that route as I've buggered up about 8 cases out of 12. No harm no foul on throw-away cases but I more jealously guard cases that are effectively match prepped except that I'm not turning the necks. I don't have all that much time so the "Brass Services" post from Hoser next to mine is fortuitous. I need to get an advertising cut; I'm hooking him up as a representitive of the inept newbee in need of adult assistance.

Best,

Brad