Help, Not Sure What I'm Getting Into...

[Malaga]

Where do these guys come from? I dont have enough tinfoil to make a hat...will saran wrap work...whoa Im way outa my league here...

[Fudmottin]

Originally Posted by Spook

Only when the bolt gun isnt built right.

Why do you say that? If I didn't make it clear, I was excluding bench rest rifles because they are pretty much the peak of accuracy potential for small arms.

But an AR with a match barrel should do pretty well. The only extra variables come from the gas port. You do have some restrictions due to magazine feeding. Other than that, a barrel is a barrel.

[Spook]

Fudd, Its been my experience that for every hour and dollar you care to spend on reworking either ....The bolt gun will out shoot the AR by more than a narrow margin.
A well built AR would have difficulty matching the accuracy of an out of the box Savage if everyone were telling the truth.
What does the gas port have to do with anything?

[Fudmottin]

Originally Posted by Spook

Fudd, Its been my experience that for every hour and dollar you care to spend on reworking either ....The bolt gun will out shoot the AR by more than a narrow margin.
A well built AR would have difficulty matching the accuracy of an out of the box Savage if everyone were telling the truth.
What does the gas port have to do with anything?

While disagreeing with me, you kind of make my point. My AR does not have a standard off the shelf barrel. It is a custom Douglas barrel.

I really have difficulty believing that an off the shelf Savage rifle could beat that.

If the gas port is insignificant, then where is the bolt gun's accuracy advantage coming from?

[Spook]

Fudd, you obviously know WAAAAAY more than I do with regard to rifle accuracy. Have a nice life.

[Fudmottin]

LOL!

I'll take that as an agreement to disagree :)

I do concede that an AR can never match a dedicated match bench rest gun though. I would feel a bit put out if an off the shelf Savage 223 beat my custom 223 AR. I put money into both the barrel and the trigger (Chip McCormic 3.5lb match trigger) to make an AR that was not just a bullet hose. It really should be in the 1/4 - 1/2 MOA range.

[interceptor]

Fud, you should take it as an opportunity to sit back and pull your foot out of your mouth.


Again.

[Fudmottin]

interceptor, you seem to be under the impression that just because I don't make barrels I know nothing about accuracy.

You must admit that the claim that an off the shelf Savage would beat a custom AR is just a bit of hyperbole.

I'm sure Spook knows far more than I do on the subject. And I never disputed that a bolt gun couldn't be made more accurate than an AR is capable of being made. I'm not even challenging the fact that bolt guns are cheaper than ARs to customize.

The fact remains that an AR can be made into a 1/4 MOA gun.

If your "Again" comment is a reference to my NFA Trust issues, that's fine. I don't know enough about PA trusts to make a valid revocable living trust that allows me to use NFA items that are owned by that trust. I wish I did. I would love to save on lawyer fees. But I don't. And even lawyers have told me that malpractice is an option for an invalid trust should the NFA commence forfeiture action. At the same time, those same lawyers are quite willing to stand behind the trust they draw up so that they can intercede in court to prevent forfeiture.

Look. I know I don't know everything. I do work at learning new things each day. If ever you or Spook are willing to meet me at Atglen with an off the shelf 223 rifle to go up against my AR 223, I'm willing to put $100 on the line for an honest contest. Factory ammo. Choose your range. Atglen goes out to 500 meters. We can even do the 100 meter range (which is, by my measurement, 93 meters).

http://www.atglensportsmensclub.org/index.asp

Federal Gold Match 69gr Ammo.
Same rest and bench for each rifle.
Third party shoots both rifles for ten shot groups.

I'm willing to suck on my toes all day long.

[interceptor]

Originally Posted by Fudmottin

interceptor, you seem to be under the impression that just because I don't make barrels I know nothing about accuracy.

*anyone looking at this forum can see immediately what you know.*

You must admit that the claim that an off the shelf Savage would beat a custom AR is just a bit of hyperbole.

*I have to admit to nothing.*

I'm sure Spook knows far more than I do on the subject. And I never disputed that a bolt gun couldn't be made more accurate than an AR is capable of being made. I'm not even challenging the fact that bolt guns are cheaper than ARs to customize.

*Your right, someone like Spook absolutely owns you.*

The fact remains that an AR can be made into a 1/4 MOA gun.

*Yup, and you can polish a turd. Mythbusters proved that.*

If your "Again" comment is a reference to my NFA Trust issues, that's fine. I don't know enough about PA trusts to make a valid revocable living trust that allows me to use NFA items that are owned by that trust. I wish I did. I would love to save on lawyer fees. But I don't. And even lawyers have told me that malpractice is an option for an invalid trust should the NFA commence forfeiture action. At the same time, those same lawyers are quite willing to stand behind the trust they draw up so that they can intercede in court to prevent forfeiture.

*You opened that can of worms asking for help with a trust and then mouthign off about wanting someone to sue if you got something wrong. Dont bite the hand that is trying to feed you.*

Look. I know I don't know everything. I do work at learning new things each day. If ever you or Spook are willing to meet me at Atglen with an off the shelf 223 rifle to go up against my AR 223, I'm willing to put $100 on the line for an honest contest. Factory ammo. Choose your range. Atglen goes out to 500 meters. We can even do the 100 meter range (which is, by my measurement, 93 meters).

*Yes, we all know about your super gun. Almost every post you make you blather on about it and all the name brand parts you have in it. Once was enough, trust me. There are MANY members here who have MUCH nicer stuff than you can ever hope to own who dont feel the need to brag. And that is exactly what you do, both about it and the .300 that you haven't found the time to shoot yet.*

http://www.atglensportsmensclub.org/index.asp

Federal Gold Match 69gr Ammo.
Same rest and bench for each rifle.
Third party shoots both rifles for ten shot groups.

I'm willing to suck on my toes all day long.

*Whatever that means, obviously it turns you on.*

[interceptor]

Now, my apologies to the original poster and all other members viewing this thread.