[jripper]

I'll throw in my two cents worth. This question is very similar to the old .45 vs 9mm pistol debate. Big heavy bullet going slow, or small light bullet going faster. Except in this case, bullets have the same diameter.

My background is as a former police officer, current probation officer and part time Police Firearms instructor. I am also a competitive USPSA/IPSC and IDPA shooter, and avid deer hunter.

My instructers background was from a part time gunsite instructor, and was all COOPER mentality and the modern technique, all the way. Part of this is you need a big, heavy bullet out of a handgun to be effective. He also believed in .30 rifles, etc. vs. .223. In fact, he really liked the 30-30 lever gun for a police carbine, which of course, is similar to the .300 whisper. I used to be brain washed by the modern technique being the only way, and bigger is better in bullets.

However, as I became more involved in shooting and hunting, I have changed my perceptions on what works, and what doesn't.

Now, to the question of what has the better terminal ballistics, .220 sub or 125 super...

I believe that the term terminal ballistics is relavent to what they are terminating into.

If we are talking white tail deer, it is different than talking about coyotes or people.

I have killed a couple of coyotes, around 30 deer, and thankfully, no people.

My deer hunting has been with shotgun slugs (foster type and sabot), bow, muzzle loader (modern with sabot) and pistol. I also shot a few roadside injured deer with .357 mag pistol. All were mid-Illinois healthy, corn fed whitetails ranging from about 100 lbs(whoops, was that really that small when it was walking) to an estimated 290 lbs at ranges from 15 feet to about 190 yards.

Here is how I see it. A 125 grain bullet going 1600 to 1800 fps is going to going to expand. It will have the velocity left to literally shred internal organs, and cause massive bleeding. Most of the deer I have shot have been with bullets or slugs going 1200 (45 long colt magnum level loaded) to 1500 (slugs and 250 grain sabot bullets).

I have witnessed the the massive internal injury these rounds have created in deer size game, when hit in the heart/lung area. These animals have all died quickly when hit in the right spot ( and no, I sure did not hit every one the right spot, some time I'll tell you about my 1/2 mile track on a 150lb buck hit in the liver with an arrow, or the 3 or 4 that I just screwed up on). Most of the time, they do not run more than 50 yards, if at all. If they do run out of sight, the blood trails are usually very visible, and easy to follow.

I think the that the 125 grain whisper should fall within this territory. I am most worried about bullet construction. I just don't want a bullet that will fall apart if I hit a shoulder, or if it hits a rib the wrong way.

Now, the .220 subsonic. This is similar to your big, heavy bullet Cooper crowd.

I liken it to my archery deer. Arrows on paper look like they would have terrible terminal ballistics. I use a 100 grain fixed broadhead, going at around 225 fps. Not real good on paper. When hit properly, the deer I have shot with this die quite quickly. When you field dress these deer, they do not show the massive internal injuries that those hit by any firearm show. You can pretty well see the pattern of the broad head going through the deer (3 nice blade holes). The arrows usually go all the way through on a broadside shot, (unless they hit a leg or shoulder). And most of these deer do not run more than 100 yards. (I have never seen one fall dead in it's tracks, after being hit by an arrow, but have seen a few run about 30 yards and fall over).

The blood trails from these deer vary from good to poor, and usually do not start immediately where the deer was hit from.

I think that the 220 subsonic is going to be more like an arrow in terminal ballistics.

Each will kill a deer.

Poor shots with either will not kill a deer.

Good hits with the 125's are probably going cause more internal damage, and this is primarly due to the velocity they maintain. If you want to see an example, shoot some water jugs with the .220 subs, and the 125 upers, and see which are more impressive. Bullet expansion does play some role, but even more important is velocity.

The deer hit well with 220s are going to die, fairly quickly. They may penetrate deeper. Or they may, as some people propose, tumble. Either way, they will more than likely penetrate deep enough to kill in either instance, and probably will not expand.

The deer will probably run in either instance.

However, the 125's are going to do more internal damage, and leave a better blood trail, as long as the bullet does not distengrate upon impact with a bone, such as a rib.

The 220 are going to leave a pencil size hole in, and if they do not tumble, on the way out.

There is not going to be much of a blood trail., and probably not until they run a little ways.

And even with a hole in their heart, they can run a little ways. I can verify than they can run up to 250 yards with no heart.

I shot a 290 lb 10 point this year with my bow. Quartering away at about 18 yards, I shot him and he ran an honest 250yards, up a 40 ft hill, before falling. When I field dress him, he had a nice hole in both lungs, and dead center in the heart. I had heard tell of it being possible that a deer could run that far after a heart shot, but did not believe it until I saw it myself.

So, terminal ballistics on a deer, in my opinion, are going to be better with the 125 supers, as long as the bullet is designed properly. Thus was the reason for my original question about the nosler bullet.

Does this mean I should give up my bow hunting and only hunt with a gun? Heck no.

Does this mean that you can't hunt with the 220 subs. Heck no.

It does mean that if you go into the woods with the 220 subs, you have to know the limitations.

And I see people talk about head shots on deer also .

I'm sure the 220s are effective on head shots, but so are the 125s.

BUT, a deers spinal brain stem is very small, small than a hickory nut. And deer in my area typically move around. And I am usually in a treestand, and it is usually cold, and there is usually some brush in the way, and I am usually tired, and can't feel my fingers fully, and am a little excited, etc. etc.

I just don't believe in head shots on deer. I don't even believe in headshots for finishing shots, unless at point blank range.
I used to shoot car wounded deer in the head with a .357 at basically point blank range. Too many times have I seen them still breathing 5 or 10 minutes later, and had to shot them again in the lungs.

I have heard same tales from other hunters and cops who shoot wounded deer.

Anyway, that is my long, drawn out opinion.

I hope that you did not fall asleep in the middle reading this.

It has been a boring day at work, so I could actually post all of it.

Hope I don't get too much hate posting.

Joel