Need Input On My New 300 "whatever" Rifle
 

Ok this thing has got me baffled. It sounds loud as hell to me and I would like some input on what you peeps think.

Here is the gun:
10" 300 blackout barrel
Pistol gas with Paladin Machine Block
FailZero BCG, Ranier Upper
Can is a Liberty Black Raven II

I am running 11.5 grains of AA1680 with 220 SMK at 1050fps. Gun runs great with ejecting and BHO working on last round.

The thing sounds loud as hell to me even when I am standing away from it. I have never heard another 300 "whatever" so I have no basis. I guess I am comparing it to my Sub 308 bolt gun and the same can. There is a hell of a pop on the semi auto and does not feel hearing safe to me. Also if I shut the gas totally off it seems even louder...wtf?

Anyway if you have any input let me know. The YT Channel below has the vids of the 300 "whatever" and my 308 bolt gun with Subs and Supers. Same shitty Droid video camera about 10 foot away.

http://www.youtube.com/user/Code9mm?feature=mhum

videos are hard to tell over the net sometimes ..

I'll bet you are getting action noise along with your loads being "on the edge" of going supersonic.

I have no experiance with that powder as I try to use H110 whenever possible .. its what works for me.

my honest suggestion would be to try different powders and different powder charges.

sorry I cant offer more help.

I hear you on videos not being great. I am using a chrony so I know where the loads are shooting. They are staying well below subsonic.
I have already tried 2 other powders. H110 and 4227. Neither will cycle the rifle in the subsonic range. They all have they same sound when fired. It is really a shot pop sound and not out in front with a super crack.

just brainstorming ..

what velocities are you getting through the chrono?
what powder charges have you tried?
have you tried a different suppressor? I know Liberty makes good stuff just thinking out loud.

something is not right .. hopefully with enough info we can (as a forum) get you headed in the right direction.

I am in the 1020 to 1040 range. I started at 12.5 and worked down to that load. My 9mm can would work, but it's threaded 1/2x28 so I need an adapter. I know the Liberty can is pellet gun quiet with my 18" .308 sending 160FTX's with Trailboss.

Try reducing your charge. A few tenths less will not change the velocity much and if you run them around a 1000 fps it will quieten down some 1680 seemed louder in my ar also. I am using N110 and AA9 now.

lighter charge,faster powder :smile: unless your gas port is in the carbine position....

I am in the pistol port. If I can not get H110 or A4227 to cycle what would you recommend? I was thinking N110 as my next step...unless anyone has other thoughts.

N110 is really good, Enforcer,#9, I've also used Power Pistol, and SR-4756 (not9) in 10.5" barrels with pretty good result... H-110 not so much good result.

Make sure your gas block & tube are tight. You may be leaking a little bit of gas out of there that creates a louder impulse sound.

Note that the shorter barrel is going to be louder than your 18" barrel, and the action noise of the AR will contribute somewhat to what you are hearing. My .300 WTF is nowhere near as quiet as my suppressor is on a .308 bolt action with a long barrel and subloads, but it can put a lot more rounds down range and is much lighter and easier to carry.

As others have stated, powder will affect the sound and the faster the burn rate, the less your suppressor will have to minimize since the idea is to have the powder fully burned before the bullet reaches the suppressor. Alliant 2400 and N110 are what I use for my pet loads. I wasn't happy with the accuracy of AA1680.

If you can Chrony your loads, you will take a lot of the guesswork out of your rig if it is just on the transonic cusp.

How do you like the Fail Zero?

If it's pistol position with Paladin gas block, you may try 2400. It is faster than the others, and cycles my rifle w/out a suppressor, which is set up the same as yours.

Also, Spook, I sen you a PM.

I am going to loctite up the gasblock. I do have a little leakage around it as it does not fit super snug. I am going to get some A2400 and N110 to try out.

So far the Fail Zero carrier seems nice. It is the re-branded one by Spikes. Time will tell if it is worth the extra coin or not...cool factor is definitely up there.

I like the overall length of my 300 WTF right now with the short barrel. My can is long at 10" so any longer and she gets unwieldy. I guess I need to drop my expectations a little. Hopefully the powder changes will calm me down.

Thanks for all the advice guys...I appreciate it.

300 Wtf
 

What size is your gas port?

I believe Arron at DeltaCompany made it .115. I never measured it before I put it all together. I am taking the block off to reseal it and I will get a measurement when I do.

Ok here is my updates. Measured Gas port and it's .110. I checked and rechecked my gas block alignment...it's good. I picked up Alliant 2400 powder. It will not cycle it. I ran 10 grains of 2400 and it yielded me 1300FPS avg....without BHO or cycling. Does that seem weird to anyone?

So basically I have used A1680 and it works, but blows my ear drums up. 4227, 2400, H110 all will not BHO or cycle the gun at Subsonic velocities. I have not purchased N110 yet. It is going to cost me a shit load since I have to order it and pay hazmat. Plus I am thinking if none of these other powders are GTG it will not be either.

My loads are all 2.15" COAL, remington 7.5 primers and Forester Die made brass.

I tried a little lighter bolt and that did not make a difference. Should I try a lighter buffer spring? If so which one and where would I get it? Should I abandon TP555's gas black and go to a JP or PRI adjustable?
Any other ideas.....???

Your choices are to use A1680 like the load data I put out, or open your gas port all the way and use H110 or N110. It will be quieter, but you won't be able to shoot full power ammo without hyper cycling the gun. Also it would help to sound meter your silencer compared to some others.

Would TP's block at Half gas prevent the "hyper cycling" you are referring to? Nice edit on the can....

Are you using a rifle length buttstock? There's definitely something going on if your port is that large, and you aren't cycling with 2400 at those charges.
Is the bolt even moving? Perhaps you have the gas block in the incorrect position?

Kevin

It is a carbine stock. I have tried all the settings on the block and the one I am using gives the most movement of the bolt. With 2400 it would move about half way back. Below is what she looks like.

http://birdsword.com/PICS%20FOR%20IM...20Blackout.JPG

Strange. My 10" barrel, despite the other problems has cycled just about everything. I've used 2400 powder, and I've used 110 grain bullets at subsonic velocities, and all cycle. This was with no muzzle device. In fact, it was cycling with a bit too much authority, so I added a heavy buffer. With the heavier buffer, it will still cycle sub loads with VVN110 about 90% of the time with no muzzle device, and 100% with a Noveske Pig.

EDIT: Ask TP555 what he drills his gas ports to. I didn't write it down, but off the top of my head, I think it's something like .169.

Regards,
-Dan

I would call Mike Milli at Dedicated Technologies and ask him what size port he puts on his. I used his uppers on two that I built and they cycle everything that I stick in it. I am using a paladin gas block. I have a standard buffer spring and a Spikes buffer.

Ok I just figured it out. I broke her all down and started really looking at it. Turns out TP's block was not lining up quite right with the gas port. The barrel shoulder to port hole is about .255. The block was about .300. So I took some material off the back of block and now it is lining up over the hole perfect. I a pretty sure that was giving me at least a .075 sized port if not smaller.

I wish I would have figured this out before I picked up all those powders...oh well.

Thanks for all the help and input. I will take her out on Wed and see what she does. I will report back then.

That is is not compatible with standard gas blocks.

Well that's a first for me...I've never heard of a gas port being off that much. I've heard of M1A's being off a little when you shim up the gas system, but never an AR from the get-go. Weird. Kudos to you for figuring it out!

Kevin

It is actually not uncommon though the error is usually less than 0.015. Many makers do not know where the gas port hole is supposed to be. Some of them just measure an existing barrel the best they can, and go with that. The problem is worse for gas-blocks, with I would say most makers putting the hole in the wrong location - confused by copying the M16 front sight gas block, which expects the forearm-holding metal end to be there as a shim between the gas block and the barrel. But with rails, that does not apply. This is an example of something I have commented on before, about how few gunsmiths make proper use of drawings and why I like products that are designed by Engineers and made by actual machinists (who are best to *not* be gunsmiths).

My measurements are probably not spot on. I did not have the right calipers to measure inside the block so I guesstimated it.

I have confidence in both machinists that did my work.

So I have been looking at Barrel Specs this morning. Correct me if I am wrong. The gas port should be .295 back from the shoulder and the block should be the same? So it looks like the barrel got the port position drilled too short. I am going to let the guy that my barrel know and see what he thinks.

They may have done a perfect job if their work matches the drawing. It could just be the drawing which is incorrect. Or there may be no drawing.

http://usera.ImageCave.com/Spook/bea...dead-horse.gif

Dude,Please,Pretty Please if that will help... if not for the sake of your own sanity, do it for the rest of us.

"the truth"
 

"Oftentimes, to win us to our harm,
The instruments of darkness tell us truths;
Win us with honest trifles, to betray us
In deepest consequence."
William Shakespeare, Macbeth

"A man once defined hell as a place where there is no reason. And you just dragged me into hell."
-Michael Savage

we can't handle the truth about how you stole someone else's cartridge and then call it your own???

and a HUGE +1 to that!

seriously Silvers .. give it a f*cking rest .. we are tired of listening to your AAC propagandist bullsh*t.

It is just stuff that I have learned over the years that would have helped me if I knew before.

This is not about AAC - it is the same difference between an AI rifle and a 'custom sniper rifle.'

Robert,

I do not like to get involved in things like this but enough is enough. I will agree with you that there is a good number of so called gunsmiths that don't have a clue but there is also the same number of engineers that couldn't figure their way out of a wet paper bag. I am the first to admit that I am not an engineer but if I as a gunsmith am as stupid as you think gunsmiths are why do I have a large number of engineers in the firearms industry, aerospace industry among others that call me for help with various projects and they have helped me with projects I have had questions on. I have been surprised on numerous occasions that firearms engineers have not known certain dimensions or information that is common knowledge to most good gunsmiths. I have also seen engineers design things that cant be made how they have designed them.

Plain and simple gunsmiths are gunsmiths not engineers and engineers are engineers not gunsmiths. We both work differently because what we do is different. An engineers designs a firearms from a piece of paper and a gunsmith fixes that firearm when something is wrong with it.

From your statement you want gunsmiths to not only be master gunsmiths but master machinists and engineers. They may all overlap each other but they are all different trades with different ways of approaching the same problem. I don't know of anyone who is a master of all trades. I would love to be a master of all three but I am not. I am a Master Gunsmith and I am trying to become a master machinist and engineer but it will be a long time before I will be satisfied with what I know.

The question I have is if gunsmiths are so stupid why did you come to us for information on the Whisper so you could design the Blackout? When you make statements like you have it makes you look like a arrogant ass and I don't think that is your intension.

I have a few of them AI rifle things. I just got done getting a new zero on my AX in 243. I sold the cute little 20 inch factory tube.

Without a doubt I dont consider them a custom rifle. Just an off the rack rifle with a custom barrel. Well, not 100% true. My AI in 338 still has the factory barrel.

The gunsmith I use is a master machinest. Thats why his work is so good. I also like the fact that he is a competive shooter so he Knows what real accurate rifle should be able to do.....

I don't expect gunsmiths to be machinists or engineers, or machinists or engineers to be gunsmiths. Quite the opposite. They are each good at what they do and specifically they are not interchangeable.

So if you want to fix a gun, then use a gunsmith. If you want a part made to a drawing, then use a machinist.

Where we seem to disagree is when one picks one over the other. You would probably say that if you want a barrel threaded, to use a gunsmith. I would want it done to a drawing, so I would use a machinist.

You are a gunsmith and a machinist, so you quality for both.

Robert,

Since you are so damned concerned about "spec" .. care to comment on the issue with a gentlemen's Remington/AAC SD whatever rifle listed here :

http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=6&f=20&t=337480

Sounds to me like Remington f*cked up the threads here and told the guy to pound sand.

I'm waiting for your reply.