Any interest in cast bullets?
 

I have been thinking about designing a cast bullet for the subsonic .308 cartridges. It would be at least 220 grains with possibly a large hollow point. If I can get molds and or bullets made would anyone be interested and what would you like? I like to shoot (a lot) and the only way I can afford it is shoot cast bullets. I am also too much of a tightwad to pay for plated or jacketed bullets unless I have no other choice. I can make my 9mm cast bullet loads for the same price as just the plated bullets and cheaper then jacketed bullets. I also build take apart suppressors so there is no problem with buildup.

I am going to make a mold for myself I am just trying to find out if there is enough interest to have a run of molds made or make bullets ready to go.

I run a lot of cast/gas check through my 338's and like 'em.

If you can come up with a 220 gas check I'd try some... actually if you can come up with some 330gr, sized .376/gas checked and lubed I'd try some of those too.:smile: then we'll talk about some heavy .458.

Cast bullets are an underrated resource, particularly for subsonic hunting.

Cast bullets are a natural for subsonic. Between the fact that lead is slicker then copper and the bullet lube they are much less likely to stick in the bore. Unless you forget to put powder in the case.:smile:

I make and use cast bullets in .308, .366, .375, .416, .458 and .475" for rifle calibers.

Have had great success with accuracy in large chamberings. Have only begun to try cast bullets in the .300/.221. Obviously should not be used with a suppressor.

The problem is that there are few firearms other than those specifically made for shooting subsonics which will do a good job.

The problems are:
1. Too much case capacity to give good velocity uniformity.
2. Too long of twist rates to stabilze long heavy bullets.
3. Too short of magazine or barrel throat to allow long bullets.
4. may clog gas ports when shooting unjacketed lead.

Most bolt action rifles suffer from 1 and 3.
Most semi auto rifles suffer form 1, 3, and 4
Most pistols suffer from 2, and 3

Heavy cast lead works fine in a 300 whiper bolt action just fine. You can shoot cast lead in a 308 too but it won't give great performance because of the excess case capacity. Several methods have been discussed on this site about ways to reduce case capacity.

Where I see the advantage of cast lead is shooting heavy bullets in large bore rifles with long barrels. Cast lead doesn't need hollow points. It expands well with just a round nose Also heavy large bore bullets have decent BCs just because of their mass to sectional area despite the fact they aren't very aerodynamic. I shoot lubricated 525 grain Postell style cast bullets seated deeply in my 45-70 Browning BCPR with fast bulky powder which give both subsonic bullet and propellent velocity at the muzzle. It's quiet enough that hearing protection isn't needed with muzzle pressure well under 1000 psi.

Obviously? Does it cause damage, more effort to clean, or what?

Depending on the mixture used in this mold >>>>HERE<<<< here drops between 210 and 235 grains with the gas-check.

What is the cost shipped per hundred(in your head)? I'm already purchasing these per hundred at $24.50 with an additional $5.10 shipping, and I can get four packages of one hundred at the same shipping rate(flat rate postage).


I really like shooting cast projectiles, as you said...the cost is right for those that like to shoot quite a lot and live on a budget!


Scott

I am currently paying $58/1000 for 145 GR 9mm and $78/1000 for 230gr 45 acp. They are currently charging $36.75/500 or $71.50/1000 for 165 gr RNFP 30 cal cast bullets. I would hope they would be about the same price.

If you are going to shoot cast bullets out of a suppressor you really want a disassembles suppressor for cleaning. It is not the lead it's the bullet lube and burnt powder that fills them up. All the suppressors I make are disassembles for cleaning.

This is what I use in my Whisper/Fireball:

http://www.midwayusa.com/viewProduct...tNumber=119903

I'll offer these to anyone here @ $25 shipped per 100; I use only Lar's Carnuba Red lube (multi-world record holding lube). I'll not increase the shipping up to what the PO ships for up to 70 lbs. (IIRC). It takes me a while to get these made, as it's a time-consuming process, so I'm not really making much per hour. I like using these bullets over most, as they have a decent meplat which has a more devastating effect on game.

Kevin

I hit this thread after some google-ing
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/show...420#post732420

I have started several threads on cast in a 300W. I shoot the Lee 200gr in my AR and my savage. Because of the lower friction, I cannot generate enough pressure to cycle my AR with a carbine gas port subsonically. I would love a 250ish grain plain base, no gas check needed for 1000fps. No hollowpoint needed. It should be a super long bore rider so it gets close to mag length to improve feeding in semi autos. :twoguns:

I have gotten 210 gr leads with 10.5 gr of 1680 in my 16M1S upper to work.
Love lead and a lot cheaper to shoot.

Has anyone seen or tried this Hock 225 grain mold.

http://www.midwayusa.com/viewProduct...tNumber=746427

Hoch bullets are some of the most accurate made. According to DUKE V. He uses them in all of his long range matches. Nose pour. Check out Cast Boolits.com. They have all kinds of info and group buys going all the time, as the above post indicated. They presently have one going by NOE ENT. for a copy of the Lyman 312284 215gr. with or without hp and gc. with multiple cavityies available, page 2 of Group Buys under Blammer small group buy. It is not scheduled to start production until Jan so there is plenty of time to get in.

That looks nice but I am thinking some tailored directly to the Whisper is an autoloader for me. I want it heavier to help get it subsonic, I want a crimp groove, I want it plain base, I want it close to mag length, I want the bore rider diameter right at 0.3005" or even 0.3000" so there aren't issues with it hanging up going in. I know that a tighter nose fit equates to accuracy, but I am looking for blaster boolits. I want to shoot my whisper fast and cheap without gas checks.
I might even want a bevel base to aid in progressive reloading. I am going to get a mold designed once I get my chambers cast or reamed to 300BLK. I'll post it here and cast boolits. I am leaning towards getting it made at Accuratemolds.com

Please keep us posted on your work and what you ultimately have designed. Between the guys here and on castboolits, I'm sure there would be a bunch of us interested in something like that.

Crawdaddy

Even if it has gas check, one is not needed or will it hurt without if run sub.. Let us know how it goes. I have bolts and single shots but still use gc's due to a suppressor. Don't shoot that many at a time and keep inside of suppressor coated. Hope you find a good one...

Its not such much the cost of the gas checks, its the lubing process I'd like to keep cleaner and easier.

That is the one thing about cast that I really dislike doing. Have not been casting that long, but you have to do the bad with the good.

Lee Alox is your friend
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xG2MF...eature=related

Would this work for the whisper leads also?
Pending tumbling post loading to remove excess.

I've tried it and I'm not happy with it all over the whole boolit. I guess im too anal and want my ammo clean. I'm happy with thenice product that lube sizing gives.

You can tumble the excess or wipe the bullets with some mineral spirits after loading.

I use the LLA on pistol bullets. There is a ton of good information here:

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=67654

As Madscientist said, you can wipe off any excess with mineral spirits, including the lube on the front of the bullet if you desire. It comes right off.

If you use the Johnson's paste wax and LLA mix or one of the other ways to make the LLA dry completely, it's really not that messy.

Crawdaddy

I would be interested in one of those molds. Saw the guy that i bought my suppressor from today and he was talking about the 300acc and said to keep eyes peeled this coming year for bullets that expand at subsonic veloictys

I use the lee 200gr gas checked at 1025fps with 10.1gr aa1680 with a carbine position gas port drilled at .125. functions good and is relatively accurate.

Glad to see you guys using cast. I had posted about this a couple/3 yrs ago and got flamed about how "you cant use cast it will ruin your gun or can" bla bla bla, so I did it anyway and still do use cast I use a LBT mold that throws 200gr w/ LBT blue lube and have used some of his methods from his cast bullet performance books works very well and the last yr I have been using the hoch mold that throws 225gr 1 1/4" bullet closer to the sierra 220 dimension and I to have found the cast will run up to at times 250-300fps faster so you have to adjust your charge accordingly. again its nice to see some caster proving it can be done, keep up the good work guys its a fun wildcat to play/tinker with, I love my whisper and may oneday graduate up to the 458 socom once I get out of these obamanomics economy

How do you like the Hoch 225 gr mold?

I've been running RCBS 30-180's through my M1S carbine. I've heard all that yak about "fouling up the barrel, fouling the gas system...." I deliberately shot mine over 300 times just to see if it would ever foul up and stop cycling, it never did - so I finally cleaned it! I figgure that if it does ever foul, I'll just take it apart and scrub it out, or replace the gas tube, nothing to it.

I was loading 13.6 grains of Reloader 7 for about 1200fps. Not subsonic, but a nice load that cycles the bolt well since my carbine is not set up for subsonic loads.

I would like to find out more on the bullet mold that was originally mentioned in this post. The RCBS's come up a little short in the magazine, and tend to jamb in the chamber if seated out too far.

Lee 200gr cast results
 

I did a function and penetration test with the Lee 200 gr gas checked bullet yesterday. Alloy was water dropped wheel weights, with 10.5 gr 1680.

Rounds were supersonic and point of impact was the same as my 220 HRN sub load at 100 yards. No problems cycling whatsoever across the 10 rounds fired.

Informal "penetration" test done with 3/8 OSB in front of a 2 gallon water jug and 2 2x6s leaned against the water jug at 50 yards. 220 SMKs and 220 HRNs both drilled caliber size holes through both 2x6s and didn't even knock them over.

The Lee bullet struck the first 2x with a slight wobble and exited COMPLETELY SIDEWAYS and embedded itself rear-end first in the second 2x. That's a 90 degree revolution in about the length of the bullet!!! Seems to me that this one would be set to "puree" in a test media of the swine variety.

Also, I'm now a firm believer in the water drop method of heat treating wheel weights. The bullet was essentially undamaged, with only rifling marks and possibly a (very) slight bend in the shank. The gas check was still attached, and all of the lube was used up.

Will try a softer alloy (ACWW, WW/PB mix, etc.) next to see if I can get some deformation in addition to the tumbling.

It doesn't get any cheaper to load the whisper than this.

Anyone else have any results to share?

Crawdaddy

Crawdaddy, thanks for the info.

I did some quick calculations last night and found that theoretically the heaviest bullet we can use in a 1-8" twist .308 barrel is 265 grains. Would there be enough interest in a 250-265 grain cast bullet to justify having molds made and making bullets. I would have both bullets and molds available for sale if there was enough interest.

That would be awsome, it would work in my 6.5 Twist for sure. Am Interested

BWE,

I'd be interested in a mold like that. I've been looking around, but haven't come across anything quite that heavy.

Do you have a design in mind? There are quite a few whisper shooters (and a ton of casting nuts) on the Castboolits forum. If you decide to go forward with it, I'm sure you'll find quite a few who are interested there. There are several custom mold makers there as well if you don't already have someone in mind.

Please keep me posted - I like the idea more and more.

Crawdaddy

By "theoretically the heaviest we can use" do you mean it will stabilize if shot in the 1000-1025 fps range or if it's shot in the 2000+ fps range? Air density, muzzle velocity, bullet shape and bullet mass all matter in determining bullet stability for a given twist rate.

I do all of my shooting at an elevation of over a mile and expect I could shoot bullets even heavier. I can shoot 240 SMKs subsonic with no problem and they're longer than an equal weight cast lead bullet would be. While heavier bullets carry more energy at the same velocity, I doubt a 265 grain cast bullet will deliver as much downrange energy (200+ yards) as a 240 grain jacketed boatttail, or have as flat of trajectory as it will shed energy faster. In my opinion cast lead's main advantage is shooting in long barrel rifles where bore friction becomes a major problem with subsonic jacketed bullets.

Yes, I'd be interested in buying a 265 grain mold if it has a reasonably low drag (semi-spitzer, Postell,?) nose design and uses gas checks. I'd like to experiment with it at the mile elevation where I shoot in 8" and 10", and maybe 12" twist barrels.

Alright here is my wish list as a loader for a cast bullet for any manufactures or enterprising individuals that would sell their wares. I love my whisper and can i just don't have time to cast bullets to put through it.

I think that other whisper, fireball, 300/221, 300 blk etc shooters might also like.
<$15/hundred price point
230-250 grain bullet
gc optional at least one lube band with lube filled.

Here is the biggie that I cant find on the market I WANT A SPRITZER OR SEMI POINTED BULLET!!!!!!!

A buddy gave me about 250 Lyman #311284 bullets that are 210 gr and I have gotten them to run in my M1S upper with AA1680 as subs.

If missouri bullet co or anyone else is listening I think others with a 300 upper and a can they can take apart to clean would love a cheap alternative to blast with, at least I would.

Ok manifesto over.....:cool:

BWE I like the hoch mold(other than the price) pretty much the only draw back is the nose pour eliminated any "tricks" you could do to the nose of the bullet but that is very minor at best still hits like a ton of bricks and when it tumbles after hitting target its still a deadly round and you cant beat the price of casting, if you look for "Hotguns" on/around various forums(I think he has passed thru here also , do a search) he's a machinist that has all kinds of experience with the whisper and has made some molds that was throwing 275gr if I remember correctly not sure what ever happened to that one, but I'm sure it would be a hit if you could find one

I got my theoretical weight by first using the twist calculator at http://kwk.us/twist.html to get a.312 dia lead bullet at 1000 fps out of a 1-8" twist barrel to get a maximum length bullet of 1.37". I then used the mold designer at http://www.mountainmolds.com/ using the defaults as cast .312 dia bullet the weight of 265 grains is 1.368" to 1.381 long. This is just the preliminary weights. I know the weight will change with bullet design but its a starting point.

This will be a strictly subsonic bullet. From what I have learned over the years at subsonic velocities the nose design is not of great concern as it is in supersonic bullets. This is why full wad cutter bullets are used in pistols for extreme accuracy in bullseye revolvers. Unfortunately wad cutters don't feed to well. I want to keep the shape as close to a cylinder as possible to get maximum stability and weight. I have to do some mock ups to see what will feed the best in most rifles and still give me what I want. I am thinking the nose shape like the Lyman #311284 or like the Saeco #311 Truncated Cone. I have to try both shapes to see what works the best. The most important thing with subsonic bullets is the base, since this is were most drag is created in subsonic bullets. It will not have a gas check as at 1000 fps they are not needed. It will at least have a bevel base bullet for ease of loading and a little less drag. I am thinking of trying a rebated boat-tail since this has proved to be the best in jacketed subsonic bullets. The rebated boat-tail also moves the center of gravity forward which is what you want. It will probably be a bore-rider bullet.

I want to keep the price point under $10/100 sized and lubed. I want to keep them as cheap as possible but I also want them to be very accurate as well. This is the first bullet I am designing so if anyone has useful information please share it. It would be nice to get it right the first time.

Cast bullet design
 

Here's something to think about for a spire point design...

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=80372

Group buy going now on a 198 gr spire point gas check mold. I'm tempted, but will stick to my Lee 200gr gc mold for now. As someone mentioned above, I'm not sure we'd see the benefit of the spire point at sub velocities.

Lyman #311334 also looks good if it weighed a bit more.
But the spire point helps in feed and function not sure about subsonic aerodynamics.
That group buy cast boolit design looks good also. I just don't cast, so yea their design looks good also.

The best reason for cast in a 300W is to find a cheap subsonic replacement for the $0.50 bullets we use otherwise.
PLEASE don't make a bevel base. Read up on the difficulty of lubing bevel base boolits. If you want to ease loading, buy a Lyman M die.

Are you thinking about a bore riding design?

300 Whisper Lead Spitzer 275 Grain bullets

I'm not sure if this is similar to what you are talking about? I found it surfing around.