300 Aac Blackout (300blk)
 

Has anyone seen this yet. From some posts buy the administrator on Silencetalk I get the impression it is a 300 Whisper.

That's what it seems like. I'd like to see the reamer print.

http://300aacblackout.com/

BTW, I'm glad someone else finally caught on to using 7.62x35 :grin:

http://www.quarterbore.net/forums/showthread.php?t=1108

PT&G is selling official 300 BLK reamers and headspace gauges. Forster Products is making official 300 BLK dies.

Looks like a really original idea they came up with. Not.

Merchandising!!!!

http://www.delawareonline.com/blogs/spaceballs.jpg

...and may the Schwartz be with youuuuuuuuueeeeeeeeuuuuuuuuuueeeeeeeeeeeuuuuuuuuuu .....

it sure looks like a 300W, but without comparing mechanical drawings, it is hard to tell

Good for them for bringing it to market.

Nobody else submitted the caliber to SAAMI.

I view this as a good thing.

If you load your own ammo, pay special attention to all of the normal safety practices. Recommended powder for most supersonic loads is Hodgdon H110.

For subsonic, there are special requirements and nearly all published loads are non-optimal for the 300 BLK upper. Many existing loads were developed for Thompson Center® single-shot pistols, or for ARs by people not aware of the magazine limitations. These loads pay no attention to automatic rifle function and should not be used. Look for a load which results in a cyclic rate of 700 rpm or more. AA1680 is recommended because its bulk density matches the case capacity and it will generate enough gas pressure to cycle the weapon.


Suggested subsonic load:

• R-P 300 AAC BLACKOUT brass
• Remington 7.5 primers
• 11.2 grains of AA 1680 powder
• Case length is 1.368 +0.000 -0.020
• Sierra 220 MK loaded to 2.089 OAL (this length is optimal for reliable feeding from USGI magazines)
• Chamber pressure 21,100 psi.

With a case length of 1.348" to 1.368" it sounds exactly like a 300 Whisper / 300-221 / 300 Fireball with a trim to length of 1.355". I'm assuming since they recommend AA1680 as the subsonic powder that the system uses a carbine length gas tube instead the pistol length. That is unfortunate as the pistol length has proven to be more versatile when switching back and forth between subsonic and supersonic.

As for the magazine problems caused by the bullet diameter that isn't anything new with AR shooters. I've found that a Pmag with the side rib removed is the best solution as opposed to loading ammo to a specific length. This also works well with my 7.62x40 which can't rely on overall length as the case is too long to allow such short loading.

Overall, I don't see anything new here. That said, I think it will be good for the cartridge family to have a SAAMI approved chamber and solid factory backing. I'm still waiting to see if the ammo is interchangable between the Blackout and the Whisper. From what I have read I suspect it may be.

Not without signing a non disclosure:

Copied from oa2.org
http://www.oa2.org/forums/viewtopic....304&highlight=

"I received an email from a principal at AAC just the other day "announcing" this "new" cartridge. In his initial email he went out of his way to tout the platitudes of this "new" round, and really make it look like something new and better than what we had ever seen before. The main crux of his email was this:

He knows that Olympic manufactures 300 Fireball barrels and that we have had great success over the years with them. This "new" cartridge of which this gentlemen represented himself to be the "project lead" in its development, was so close to what we make that he said, "Your chamber is probably already within the spec", but that he recommended we go to HIS reamers, and "recommend you change the name on your barrels to 300 AAC BLACKOUT. People will be asking you for it soon enough." I informed him that they already do ask for it, and that Oly calls it the 300 Fireball, and that we have been manufacturing it for almost 30 years.

After several email exchanges, he wanted me to sign a Non-Disclosure Agreement just to see a print of the cartridge. I was a bit thrown off by this, not wanting to get involved with or support an organization, project or individual that wants to push a new branding as an exclusive or otherwise fantastically new development, when it is little more than a rebranding that others have used and made famous over the last 30 years. Remember: JD Jones and all his wondrous rampages about anyone who made a 330/221 Fireball after he branded the name "300 Whisper"? Anyway, the whole NDA thing caused me to make some calls. After 17 years at one company and nearly 25 in the industry, I am not without contacts and resources of my own. In about 30 minutes I confirmed that the cartridge, although submitted IS NOT SAAMI approved as of yet. this was given to me as the reason for the NDA request. Hmmm... But I also received confirmation from a couple of inside industry sources that the chambering is almost identical to what Oly and others have been using for the 300 Fireball/Whisper® all along.

Specifically, I was told, "the headspace is exactly the same as 221 Fireball, the chamber is exactly the same as the 221 Fireball except the neck is .337 tapering to .335. The max case length is 1.368", chamber is 1.378 to where the case mouth would be. Throat is .309 for about .18 then it's a 1.5 degree into the bore."

Anyway the good news is they are advertising a partnership with Remington. Near as I can tell the partnership really seems more like a seller/client relationship with AAC being the buyer of ammo from Remington. In one of his letters he states that there are 5 Million rounds on order. Looking forward to testing some.

While I anticipate fully that the marketing will continue with the re-branding of the 300 Fireball as the 300 AAC Blackout as the next greatest cartridge to hit the AR, we all know it is not. Something that a theology professor taught me about scripture and doctrine sort of applies here: If it is new, it is not a revelation. If it is a revelation, it is not new". Same principal pretty much applies to the AR after 50 years of tinkering. Yes, there will be some exceptions, most notably the WSSM conversions, but for the most part that adage holds true.

The best news of this, is if it all goes through as projected, is that the ammo will be commercially loaded and available in case lots, that will totally reinvigorate the cartridge, and in the end, in spite of any negatives in the process, I'm all for it.

It will always be a 300 Fireball to me."

You'd think he would have put it together that AAC is a subsidiary of Remington.

I wonder if his chambers are a no-turn neck

I looked into these OAL's and while I think there is some merit here, this is not without controversy. These OAL's are VERY short for most bullets. While this may help them feed through an AR15 magazine more reliably they leave quite a large jump to the lands.

In my 300-221 chamber most bullets would be left with a .130" to .220" jump to the lands. That is an awfully long way for a bullet to travel before encountering rifling which is likely to impact on accuracy.

Also keep in mind that seating bullets this deep is going to change the pressure and velocity in your current load.

I will leave final decision on this till I have a chance to actually try it.

+1

PS how does everyone on this board like knowing that the certain person who "developed" the "new" round spent time trolling this board for info like case lengths, bullet choices, powder selection and loads? Then low and behold commercial ammo of nearly the same type shows up and someone else is making money from your ideas and work. :twoguns:

I think this is a good thing for the industry.

If JDJ had not played I have a secret for so long, the Whisper would have been standardized long ago.

The more people using the 300 Blackout / 300 Whisper the better.

Who knows, we might see some factory R-700s coming out. And a registered SBR out of the factory isnt a bad thing. No need to engrave it.

I am looking forward to seeing it out there.

+1 . At some point He decided that he would rather have 100% of a small niche than 10-15% of a big pie. My guess is that JDJ had been approached a few times by manufacturers and was too high on licensing cost.

Gas block position
 

I posted this question on AAC Silencertalk.com to out what they did and was told the 9" barrel uses the pistol position and everything else uses the carbine position with non adjustable gas blocks. I'm sorry but you cant use the full potensial of the 300 Whisper\Fireball\Backout\whatever you want to call it today without an adjustable gas block and a pistol poision. I'm glad they are doing this so the Whisper and suppressors will finally be in the mainstream, but to say it's something compleatly different when its the some thing pisses me off.

There are a few issues with this development. The first thing deals with the Whispers semi wildcat states. For years the 300 Whisper has been our baby. Every one that owns one takes pride in running a cartridge that the average to the semi advanced shooter does not understand. The 300 BLK will put the Whisper in the hands of the masses. It's good for the cartridge and good for the uninformed shooters out there. It begs for a suppressor and every one that gets a 300 BLK will probably learn that suppressors are legal, which will increase sales. That's good for all of us. ACC did the same thing as all the other manufacturers out there with a Whisper clone. 300 Fireball, 300-221, 300 whatever. ACC just pushed the envelope farther and ruffled a few feathers along the way. The last thing is the banning of Devil Doc on ST. There are a lot of people pissed off about someone getting banned for telling rsilvers that he should not use an unproven gun as his carry gun. I am one of those people. It's his house and he makes the rules. I think some are using this as an excuse to bash AAC and rsilvers. I think a simple thanks for the help and info would go a long way.

I have also researched this round and had a chance to get the skinny on the chamber specs... It is basically the 300-221 Fireball and will most likely shoot in a 300-221 Fireball chamber. BUT, not all 300-221 Fireball chambers are the same. If your chamber will not shoot the Blackout you probably will be able to touch it up with a Blackout reamer and be good to go.

As some of you may well know, I have put a few 300-221 Fireball rounds downrange (~10000) and even built a few (about eight or so). I think that going with a carbine length gas system in the 16-inch barrel pretty much optimizes the 16-inch barrel for super sonic loads. That is not to say that it will not shoot subsonic loads but it will not be as flexible with bullet weights and powder types in the subsonic mode as a gun set up with a pistol length position.


Non the less, I hope that this cartridge is successful.

320pf

Makes some sense as the person getting the 9" is NFA aware and will more likely be shooting subsonic with a can. The less informed masses buying the 16" are more likely to be buying this as a supersonic hunting option.

I am new to this cartridge but given its powder efficiency do you get meaningful velocity gain out of longer barrels?

The max the brass can be for 300 AAC BLACKOUT is 0.334 on the neck.

Obviously I did not say it was completely different - I even told him that he may not have to change his chamber. He heard what he wanted to hear.

I commissioned gel testing of most of the recommended bullets on this site, and will release the complete report here for everyone to see and learn from.

rsilvers,

My comment was not directed at you. It was directed at the corporate PR people who always say whatever the product is they are pushing that it is brand new never been done before, greatest thing since sliced bread. You did say the chamber may not have to be changed but you did not simply say you took the 300 Whisper and standardized or massaged it. I imagine you didn't because the powers that be would have a fit if you came out and said it's a 300 Whisper.

Our THUMPER line of cartridges is new to us and I don't remember seeing them before I came up with them, but I have read Cartridges of the World about a zillion times and the 338-223 Straight is in there. As much as my partner hates it I would never say that I designed it or even came up with the idea of it. I trying to learn all I can about subsonic rifle cartridges I find myself going back to the black powder and early smokeless powder cartridges for some great information. Like many things we are just coming full circle and relearning what people used to know.

think of it this way, you had a hand in developing a new mass released cartridge:wink:

We wanted to create a uniform standard and then let anyone use it royalty free. If we called it 300 Remington Fireball, many would think we would be saying it is compatible with all of the 300 Fireball wildcat reamers - and we are not sure it is. Most people already know this is a good thing for major companies to make more products, and those who don't will come around once they see the ammo prices. We have a lot of ammo being made before the end of the year - way more than 6.8 SPC ammo - probably more than all 6.8 ammo combined from all companies that make it.

so, you are saying it should be compatible with many chambers, or could be with 15 minutes& a touch up reamer
edit to add, It sounds like you have some ammo makers lined up, will they be re-purposing once fired brass, or making new? will it bear the 300blk head stamp?

My business partner bought one out of the first batch, going to get my hands on it soon.

And yeah, going to be testing it to see if it will work with ammunition loaded off my .300W dies......

IIRC so far only Remington is lined up to make ammo. Although, any ammo maker can without paying any royalty fee. The 300 AAC BLACKOUT or 300 BLK names can be used by anyone that is meeting SAAMI specs. I believe I read that the Remington brass is head stamped 300 BLK and brass will be available some time in 2012. Till then reloaders will need to make it from .223.

Honestly I think it is smart. Find out what works and what people in the know want and then market it. I prefer that to a company that makes what they want and doesn't pay attention to what customers are asking for, which has been the case with large firearms makers in the past. I would expect a company trying something like this to do research first and that would include talking with those that have been there and done that.

Remington ammo uses new 300 AAC BLACKOUT brass. It is not converted from anything. Primers are sealed and crimped. Case mouths are annealed, and the anneal is purposely not polished out for visible verification.

Are there plans of the military using this? Just asking because crimped primers are a b*tch to reload.
-Dan

Certain customers want crimped primers so everyone gets them.

Nothing wrong with that, I'd love to have to tooling to crimp my own primers.

EDIT, I guess I will know soon enough by looking at it - but in the mean time I'll ask anyway.....

Did you change the feed ramp geometry at all to make it more .308 friendly?

No, it is a standard feed ramp. We considered making it more like the 450 Bushmaster but decided not to give up one of the lugs.

So bottom line is the 300 AAC BLACKOUT compatible with 300-221 Fireball/300 Whisper chambers?

NICE!:grin:

From what I can tell, I think so. I've got one coming in, so I'll let everyone know asap if no one else beats me to it.

I would think that there are plenty of reasons AAC cannot/will not ever come out and say it is, and I don't blame them.

At any rate, they look great and can't wait to try ours out!

Ever see a Venn Diagram?

http://www.learnnc.org/reference/Venn+diagram

The example in that link says Dogs, Humans, Lizards. They overlap with each other.

Imagine a Venn Diagram that said 300 Fireball, 300-211, and 300 AAC BLACKOUT. There will be overlap, but we can't claim compatibility with every reamer ever labeled 300 Fireball or 300-221 or 300 Whisper(R) because there was either no standard or it was proprietary and we did not have a drawing.

If a company has made, for example, 300 Fireball uppers which are inside the spec of 300 AAC BLACKOUT, then that is up to them to say it is compatible.

Noveske already did for certain barrels they have made:

http://noveskerifleworks.com/cgi-bin...since=&status=