help me build the ultimate silenced hunter
 

Hi guys. I'm looking to build a silenced subsonic deer hunting rifle. Ranges will be from 10 yards up to 200 yards (extreme). I'd like to keep this rifle as short as possible, so I'll need either an integral suppressor, bullpup stock, or a SBR. I'd like to skip the SBR if possible, and if I convert my AR the bullpup is out.... I already have a Oly Arms AR 15 that I can modify.

Necessities:

1. Must have sufficient power to take out deer sized animals @ 200 yards and closer

2. I want the flattest trajectory possible out to 200 yards. I'd rather not think of rise and fall of the bullet when shooting.................just point and click/pffft

3. I want a bullet that will expand on impact and produce a nice wound channel and a quick kill at subsonic velocities.

4. I want this rifle to be as silent as possible so what do you recommend as far as silencers go? Weight is of little concern.

5. Reliability is of great importance as is accuracy. 3" groups at 200yrds is acceptable. 1.5" @ 100yrds. Tighter is always better.

6. Of coarse I want to keep my spending as low as possible.

I've been looking at the AR 300 whisper and the Ruger 44mag carbine, but I have been unsuccessful in finding accurate trajectory charts for different loads and calibers.

With the 300 whisper I can use my AR as a build platform. Model 1 has 300 whisper barrels at a decent price and I can use the upper receiver and handguards from my AR as well as other parts.............I have no use for a .223. I would need to have some machine work done to it to make it exactly what I want, but that shouldn't be a big problem with all the machinists around here :grin:


So................what do you guys recommend and why?

Thanks for taking the time to read this. Thanks even more for answering my questions. :grin:

swampf0x

If you want to go cheap and EZ I would:
1 Go with a 44 mag or 45 Colt. Cheap bullets that will expand.
2 Not going to happen. Your best bet is to get a Pride fowler 3x9 .22 scope. It has drop compensation out to 200 yds. It is your best and cheapest bet.
3 refer to (1)
4 A subsonic 44 mag will work in a good 45 acp Suppressor. If you plan on shooting hot loads get a custom can. Elite Iron will make you one for a reasonable price.
5&6 H&R rifle. Cheap and they shoot good.


If you do an AR the price will go up quite a bit. 458 SOCOM is my choice. I use a custom bullet for hunting and a cheap bullet for play. ($2 a piece for hunting $0.50 for play) You will also need a gas cutoff to get it as quiet as possible. The Whisper works good when you pick your shots. It will not act like a normal deer rifle. Most of the deer I have shot jump a little, go about 20 yds, stop, and look around. Then they just fall over. The larger guns knock the crap out of them.


As bullet diameter goes up so does sound, but I must admit the .44s I've heard are quiet.

Thank you for your quick responce and the recomendation. I may however need someone to help me through this process. OK, Most of my shots will be under 100yrds. IF......IF I was to see a big granddaddy monster buck out to 200yrds..................I would have to try it :D

Soooooo, I should be asking................

1. ***what subsonic caliber will give me the flattest trajectory out to 100yrds? Better yet, does anyone have trajectory charts for any/all subsonic loads?

2. what caliber is best on deer inside of 100yrds.? I rarely have shots outside that. I would really like to see some mushrooming when the bullet hits meat (44mag), but it's OK if it doesn't, as long as a good clean well placed shot will put the animal down quickly(300 whisper?), mushrooming is not a necessity.

From my research thus far the 300 whisper seems to be THE best choice for hunting. I'm just looking for other/better solutions.

thanks,
swampf0x

thanks,
swampf0x

Thats a tall order...

Heavy subsonic bullets drop like a brick past 100 yards. I shoot 220s out to 400 or so yards with a 200 yard zero.

Being subsonic, most bullets tend to not expand very well as they are designed to expand at much higher velocities.

Trajectory of the bullet has little to do with bullet weight or diameter. It's has everything to do with ballistic coefficient and velocity. Here is a 20gr vs a 900gr bullet with a .500 BC. Higher BCs will help at long range, but out to 200 yds you will not notice much. As far as 300 Whisper. If you can honestly let a good deer walk rather than take a questionable shot, get one. You need to have a good broadside shot every time. There are expandable bullets. Well one commercially available bullet. The .44,.45,.458,.510 will save you when the shot is a little off the mark. There are a wider variety of expandable bullets for them and to be honest larger caliber stuff does not need to expand. .45 Colt with hard cast will kill any deer. The 300 Whisper in an AR will allow a fast follow up shot. The problem is, no one knows your hunting style more than you. I have 300 Whisper and a 458 SOCOM and love them both. Both have killed deer. Both are ARs. The 300 is like shooting them with a knife blade. The 458 is a lot like a 40mm grenade. As far as trajectory tables go, let me know what bullet you would like to shoot and I will post the chart. There will not be much difference. If you get some standard velocity .22 lr stuff and shoot it out to 200 yds you will get a good idea of what you are getting into.

Name: Test
Ballistic Coeff: 0.500
Bullet Weight: 20
Velocity: 1050
Target Distance: 100
Scope Height: 1.500
Temperature: 70
Altitude: 500

Ballistic Data
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Range Elevation Velocity Energy
0 yds -1.50 in 1050 fps 49 fpe
25 yds 1.94 in 1038 fps 48 fpe
50 yds 3.37 in 1027 fps 47 fpe
75 yds 2.73 in 1016 fps 46 fpe
100 yds 0.00 in 1006 fps 45 fpe
125 yds -4.89 in 996 fps 44 fpe
150 yds -11.88 in 986 fps 43 fpe
175 yds -21.14 in 977 fps 42 fpe
200 yds -32.71 in 969 fps 42 fpe
225 yds -46.62 in 960 fps 41 fpe
250 yds -62.92 in 952 fps 40 fpe
275 yds -81.63 in 944 fps 40 fpe
300 yds -102.78 in 936 fps 39 fpe
325 yds -126.38 in 928 fps 38 fpe
350 yds -152.45 in 921 fps 38 fpe
375 yds -181.01 in 914 fps 37 fpe
400 yds -212.08 in 907 fps 36 fpe
425 yds -246.24 in 900 fps 36 fpe
450 yds -282.40 in 893 fps 35 fpe
475 yds -321.38 in 886 fps 35 fpe
500 yds -363.20 in 880 fps 34 fpe
525 yds -407.89 in 874 fps 34 fpe
550 yds -455.48 in 867 fps 33 fpe
575 yds -506.01 in 861 fps 33 fpe
600 yds -559.49 in 855 fps 32 fpe


Name: tast
Ballistic Coeff: 0.500
Bullet Weight: 900
Velocity: 1050
Target Distance: 100
Scope Height: 1.500
Temperature: 70
Altitude: 500

Ballistic Data
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Range Elevation Velocity Energy
0 yds -1.50 in 1050 fps 2203 fpe
25 yds 1.94 in 1038 fps 2154 fpe
50 yds 3.37 in 1027 fps 2107 fpe
75 yds 2.73 in 1016 fps 2063 fpe
100 yds 0.00 in 1006 fps 2022 fpe
125 yds -4.89 in 996 fps 1982 fpe
150 yds -11.88 in 986 fps 1945 fpe
175 yds -21.14 in 977 fps 1909 fpe
200 yds -32.71 in 969 fps 1874 fpe
225 yds -46.62 in 960 fps 1842 fpe
250 yds -62.92 in 952 fps 1810 fpe
275 yds -81.63 in 944 fps 1780 fpe
300 yds -102.78 in 936 fps 1750 fpe
325 yds -126.38 in 928 fps 1722 fpe
350 yds -152.45 in 921 fps 1695 fpe
375 yds -181.01 in 914 fps 1668 fpe
400 yds -212.08 in 907 fps 1642 fpe
425 yds -246.24 in 900 fps 1618 fpe
450 yds -282.40 in 893 fps 1593 fpe
475 yds -321.38 in 886 fps 1570 fpe
500 yds -363.20 in 880 fps 1547 fpe
525 yds -407.89 in 874 fps 1525 fpe
550 yds -455.48 in 867 fps 1503 fpe
575 yds -506.01 in 861 fps 1482 fpe
600 yds -559.49 in 855 fps 1461 fpe

I just received an email from SSK. They told me that they are working on a 300 whisper bullet that WILL expand at subsonic velocities, and they are almost finished. I don't know anything else about that bullet but more than likely............that's what I want to shoot.

I still haven't given up on the 44mag or any of the other large calibers. I just think the 300 will shoot straighter, farther.

swampf0x

Berrys mfg is also looking at making a bullet for the Whisper. They use a softer lead in their bullets and could possibly come out with an expanding bullet. A rep from Berrys started a thread here, feel free to tell them how much you would like to see them add a new bullet to their line up.

If you like the 300 get it, but it will not shoot "straighter" then any other subsonic stuff.



Name: 240/ 300
Ballistic Coeff: 0.700
Bullet Weight: 240
Velocity: 1050
Target Distance: 100
Scope Height: 1.500
Temperature: 70
Altitude: 500

Ballistic Data
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Range Elevation Velocity Energy
0 yds -1.50 in 1050 fps 587 fpe
25 yds 1.91 in 1041 fps 578 fpe
50 yds 3.32 in 1033 fps 569 fpe
75 yds 2.69 in 1025 fps 560 fpe
100 yds 0.00 in 1018 fps 552 fpe
125 yds -4.79 in 1010 fps 544 fpe
150 yds -11.69 in 1003 fps 536 fpe
175 yds -20.79 in 996 fps 529 fpe
200 yds -31.93 in 989 fps 521 fpe
225 yds -45.33 in 983 fps 514 fpe
250 yds -61.01 in 976 fps 508 fpe

Name: 530/458
Ballistic Coeff: 0.400
Bullet Weight: 530
Velocity: 1050
Target Distance: 100
Scope Height: 1.500
Temperature: 70
Altitude: 500

Ballistic Data
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Range Elevation Velocity Energy
0 yds -1.50 in 1050 fps 1297 fpe
25 yds 1.97 in 1035 fps 1261 fpe
50 yds 3.41 in 1022 fps 1228 fpe
75 yds 2.78 in 1008 fps 1197 fpe
100 yds 0.00 in 996 fps 1167 fpe
125 yds -4.90 in 984 fps 1140 fpe
150 yds -12.08 in 973 fps 1114 fpe
175 yds -21.59 in 962 fps 1089 fpe
200 yds -33.47 in 952 fps 1066 fpe
225 yds -47.77 in 942 fps 1044 fpe
250 yds -64.50 in 932 fps 1022 fpe


About 1.5 @ 200 yds.

Alleycat,
What ballistic software are you running?
Thanks

Pointblank, PCB, and http://test.iostreamwebdesign.com/BOTW/. All free :smile:

I know the 243WSSM is not Sub-sonic....not even close, but with a supressor it is pretty quiet.
Check out this video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vE5LlYqgcys

The doe gets a little spooked when her buddy goes down, but no very....
When the 1st shot misses her head she didn't even move!

Could you do a trajectory chart of the 458 @ 3000' above sea level,@ 50 degrees, and the scope mounted 2" above center
with a zero @ 75 yards (or what ever range would best suite it)

You are referring to the 458 socom right? And the bullet doesn't drop signifacuntly more than the lighter rounds? The large caliber 458 seems to have more knockdown power without sacrificing velocity. Can I use my AR as a platform?

http://i830.photobucket.com/albums/z...0-13-09004.jpg


It works in this AR...



Name: 458 Socom 530 Outlaw
Ballistic Coeff: 0.400
Bullet Weight: 530
Velocity: 1050
Target Distance: 75
Scope Height: 2.000
Temperature: 50
Altitude: 3000

Ballistic Data
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Range Elevation Velocity Energy
0 yds -2.00 in 1050 fps 1297 fpe
25 yds 0.71 in 1036 fps 1263 fpe
50 yds 1.39 in 1023 fps 1231 fpe
75 yds 0.00 in 1010 fps 1201 fpe
100 yds -3.54 in 999 fps 1173 fpe
125 yds -9.17 in 987 fps 1147 fpe
150 yds -17.05 in 976 fps 1122 fpe
175 yds -27.25 in 966 fps 1098 fpe
200 yds -39.82 in 956 fps 1075 fpe
225 yds -54.77 in 946 fps 1054 fpe
250 yds -72.16 in 937 fps 1033 fpe
275 yds -92.00 in 928 fps 1013 fpe
300 yds -114.31 in 919 fps 994 fpe
325 yds -139.11 in 911 fps 976 fpe
350 yds -166.42 in 902 fps 958 fpe
375 yds -196.69 in 894 fps 941 fpe
400 yds -229.30 in 887 fps 925 fpe
425 yds -264.76 in 879 fps 909 fpe
450 yds -303.10 in 871 fps 894 fpe
475 yds -344.36 in 864 fps 879 fpe
500 yds -388.55 in 857 fps 864 fpe




Name: 458 Socom 530 Outlaw
Ballistic Coeff: 0.400
Bullet Weight: 530
Velocity: 1050
Target Distance: 100
Scope Height: 2.000
Temperature: 50
Altitude: 3000

Ballistic Data
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Range Elevation Velocity Energy
0 yds -2.00 in 1050 fps 1297 fpe
25 yds 1.59 in 1036 fps 1263 fpe
50 yds 3.16 in 1023 fps 1231 fpe
75 yds 2.65 in 1010 fps 1201 fpe
100 yds 0.00 in 999 fps 1173 fpe
125 yds -4.74 in 987 fps 1147 fpe
150 yds -11.74 in 976 fps 1122 fpe
175 yds -21.06 in 966 fps 1098 fpe
200 yds -32.74 in 956 fps 1075 fpe
225 yds -46.81 in 946 fps 1054 fpe
250 yds -63.31 in 937 fps 1033 fpe
275 yds -82.26 in 928 fps 1013 fpe
300 yds -103.69 in 919 fps 994 fpe
325 yds -127.61 in 911 fps 976 fpe
350 yds -154.03 in 902 fps 958 fpe
375 yds -183.41 in 894 fps 941 fpe
400 yds -215.15 in 887 fps 925 fpe
425 yds -249.72 in 879 fps 909 fpe
450 yds -287.18 in 871 fps 894 fpe
475 yds -327.55 in 864 fps 879 fpe
500 yds -370.86 in 857 fps 864 fpe



Name: 458 Socom 530 Outlaw
Ballistic Coeff: 0.400
Bullet Weight: 530
Velocity: 1050
Target Distance: 125
Scope Height: 2.000
Temperature: 50
Altitude: 3000

Ballistic Data
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Range Elevation Velocity Energy
0 yds -2.00 in 1050 fps 1297 fpe
25 yds 2.54 in 1036 fps 1263 fpe
50 yds 5.06 in 1023 fps 1231 fpe
75 yds 5.50 in 1010 fps 1201 fpe
100 yds 3.79 in 999 fps 1173 fpe
125 yds 0.00 in 987 fps 1147 fpe
150 yds -6.05 in 976 fps 1122 fpe
175 yds -14.42 in 966 fps 1098 fpe
200 yds -25.15 in 956 fps 1075 fpe
225 yds -38.28 in 946 fps 1054 fpe
250 yds -53.83 in 937 fps 1033 fpe
275 yds -71.83 in 928 fps 1013 fpe
300 yds -92.31 in 919 fps 994 fpe
325 yds -115.28 in 911 fps 976 fpe
350 yds -140.76 in 902 fps 958 fpe
375 yds -169.19 in 894 fps 941 fpe
400 yds -199.98 in 887 fps 925 fpe
425 yds -233.60 in 879 fps 909 fpe
450 yds -270.11 in 871 fps 894 fpe
475 yds -309.53 in 864 fps 879 fpe
500 yds -351.89 in 857 fps 864 fpe



338 Specter is a good one on an AR platform 2. The supersonic ammo in most of the rounds sound like a .22lr with mini-mags. ARs are a little louder.

OK, I'm totally confused now. Are you basically saying that any diameter bullet, no matter the weight, fired from 1050fps has a very close trajectory out to 200yards?????

Will the 338 fired at sub sonic speeds mushroom any? Will it penetrate a deers shoulder bone?

I didn't realize I had so many choices. I would like to modify my AR. But, not if it's gonna cost significantly more than buying another rifle and suppressor.

I've been looking at some of the Ruger 44mag rifles. A suppressed 96/44 sounds nice and very quiet. If a suppressor were built into the factory barrel (integral) would the twist rate be to slow to shoot good?

thanks,
swampf0x

Within reason - yes. But subsonics have a rainbow like trajectory and you need to do your homework at all the ranges from 50 to 200 to make sure you have the correct zero.

A 338 Matchking will dump a lot of energy on the way through, but subsonic hunting is more like bow hunting with its effect. Many people get a reaction like an arrow - slow bleed out and collapse - unless you go through the head or spine. A 350/300 grain 338 at 1050 will penetrate a deer and hopefully tumble on the way through. Check out the 338 Whisper footage on U Tube on the hogs.

44 mag factory barrels do not do well at subsonic velocities due to their twist rate. But with a faster barrel twist there is a lot of potential - but you do not get the longer range potential available from the heavy rifle bullets like Matchkings.

So, subsonic one shot kill every time with minimal meat damage out to 200? Either head shots with a 300 Whisper or 338 Whisper or go to bigger with the 458 Socom.

EDIT: just picked up this eyewitness story of shooting deer with the SOCOM

Quote

I used the TTSX on my Buck. The load was 31.5gr H110 and oal was 2.255in. I didn't have time to really get the load working or chrony it but it was shooting into 6" at 100 yards. I am using a RRA upper/RRA carbine lower and a Nikon Prostaff 2x-7x scope with the RRA high mount. I saw the deer coming thru the woods and stood up in my tree stand. I took him @ about 80 yards right behind the left shoulder. The ball angled thru him and out in front of the right rear leg. He jumped his rear end into the air and took off. He made it thru an old river bed about 70 yards from where I hit him. I don't understand how he ran off as when we field dressed him his whole insides looked like scrambled eggs from the heart down. The entrance hole was big enough to get "four" fingers into and the exit was about "three fingers".
We blood tracked him from about five yards from where I hit him right up to where we found him. The blood trail was getting bigger the closer we got to him. We could not recover the ball as it went clean thru. I really like this ball for all the damage it caused. I killed my first Deer when I was 12 years and am now 66 and have hunted all over the US. I like this weapon and load best of any I have used. I might also add he was a "BIG BOY" we couldn't get him up on the four wheeler and had to rig a pully/strap/winch to lift him off of the ground to get him on the rack. I got 68 lbs of Jerky and three rolls of summer sausage from him and his est. field dressed wt. was 240 lbs.

Unquote

FWIW

Only two factors determine a bullets external ballistics. BC and velocity. Two bullets that have the same shape and ratio of length to width will have the same BC regardless of their relative weights. At 200 yds or less a bullets BC will not come into play as much. The high BC bullets will shed velocity slower than low BC bullets. At 500 or 600 yds this will make a big difference, but you are not interested in shooting steel at 500 yds. You have to understand that the 300 Whisper was designed to shoot bad guys out to 300 meters. Deer will react different. Match Kings will let you down. The theory of MKs is that they will turn (tumble) in the deer and cut a wound that looks like a knife went through it. Mks don't always do this. My experience is a 50/50 chance. When they work it is spectacular, but you will loose deer. The larger caliber bullets do more damage and do not rely on the bullet turning. I will include a pic of a 300 Whisper kill and a 458 SOCOM. Both are expanding. I suggest you get a ballistic program and play with it some. Get onto youtube and listen to Whispers and .44s SOCOM and whatever. In the end I am some guy you never met, but I have been there and done that.


http://lmgtfy.com/?q=youtube+suppressed+rifle

This is a thread on the .44 mag. Will a 240 .44 bullet kill a deer? Nope you have to use a 300 gr :smile:
http://www.silencertalk.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=41897


http://i830.photobucket.com/albums/z...utlaw00291.jpg



http://i830.photobucket.com/albums/z...th_Deer016.jpg

Ok, as far as calibers go trajectory differences doesn't matter for my use so why not throw the heaviest bullet. So the 458 SOCOM looks to be my #1 choice. Your's looks great. I'm wanting something like that. Is the lower a normal 5.56 size? What would it cost me to set my AR up like that? How loud is it suppressed? I tried to look it up on the net but couldn't find much about it.

swampf0x

http://www.teppojutsu.com/458.htm

http://458socomforums.com/

just to get you started.

It is a standard AR 15 lower. Mine is a TI. RRA has complete guns as well. If you want a SBR you will need to Form 1 the lower and have it engraved. Orion Arms is the best place to go and get it done. $70

http://orion-arms.com/

There are some guys on this forum that may put an upper together for you.
Teppo Jutsu makes a great gun. It will take a while, but he is a hell of a guy and does top notch work. I am still awaiting my suppressor, but here is a vid of a form 1 suppressor jmorris did. I believe he posts hear.


http://s121.photobucket.com/albums/o...ent=m41kf1.flv

nice lungs i think i need them on a coffee mug.

I assume the above video is of a .458 SOCOM? If so, the noise level is probably acceptable, although some of the videos of the integral .44 mag are even quieter.

swampf0x

The automatic gain on the microphone distorts and amplifies silencers.

A 44 mag may sound quieter but will it give you the 200 yards range you are looking for?

I see no reason that it wouldn't give me 200yrds. If the trajectory chart says that "practically" any bullet launched at 1050fps has very close the same trajectory out to at least 200yrds....................I see no reason the 44mag (special) wouldn't do it.

Sure would be nice to have a suppressed SBR'd Bullpup in .458 SOCOM :D

swampf0x

When looking at videos remember the only way to compare two guns is to video them at the same time with the same recorder. It is still not the best judge of a setup, but will give you an idea. The second thing is that ARs are louder than bolt guns especially from the port side. You need a three position gas block or a gas cut off to compare a bolt gun to an AR. In the video he was comparing a suppressor he made in 458 to a factory suppressor in 223 with a 55 gr bullet. The first gun in reality sounds like a unsuppressed 22 LR HV. The 458 would not have a sonic crack. I know its hard to figure out what is best suited for you. That why most of us have multiple NFA toys. Most get a .22 LR and a 30 cal. After that things get weird. Do you know if there are any shooting ranges in you area that allows NFA? If so, see if you can listen first hand.

The SOCOM is using an approx 500 grain projectile over the 240 grain 44 Mag in a factory carbine for the similar velocity. The 300 grain loads are supersonic in the SOCOM.

The 458 Socom is not as quiet as the 44mag even with the best subsonic load and both in a single shot gun.

I like my Socom but my 44mag with 300 grn pills are my choice
for a real quiet hog and deer killer up to 200 yrds.

factory barrel or after-market with a faster twist for the 44 mag?

I'm using a 1:11 twist Douglas barrel so 240+ grn bullets fly
accurate in my 44mag.
http://i197.photobucket.com/albums/a...integral2w.jpg
.
My AR 458
http://i197.photobucket.com/albums/a...458Socom3w.jpg
http://i197.photobucket.com/albums/a...458Socom8w.jpg

Maybe I could get a Ruger 44mag carbine, have a custom aluminum bull pup stock made (I know of a guy) Put a faster twist barrel on it, SBR it if needed, and a 45 acp suppressor. How does that sound for a short easy to handle deer rifle out to a Maximum of 200yrds?

Most of my hunting will be from a small blind, so compactness is important to me. I hunt on my familys farm and there is a property boundry dispute between us and them. The land has been surveyed several times and they all match within a couple of inches. Our fence is inside that surveyed line by a few inches. I'm legal but there's always someone trying to start trouble. Anyways, I'd rather keep things quiet to avoid confrentations with the neighbors. I also need to drop the deer where he stands. God forbid if my deer ran across the fence. Then there would be lots of trouble started..................so, does a Ruger 44mag sound good to everyone? Does my plan sound solid? Or do I need the extra weight the 458 SOCOM offers? Which would be cheaper to build, buy the Ruger and start from scratch or modify my AR upper?

thanks,
swampf0x

You will get no argument from me about the .44 mag. It is vary capable. If you go that route, a .45 acp host would soon follow.:smile: Rebarreling your upper would be cheaper than setting up a new gun, but I would not let that stop me. Don't skimp on the suppressor. Get the best you can afford. You will be glad you did. Just don't shoot full power loads through that acp can and you will be good to go.

OK we got 2 thumbs up for the 44mag but it will cost more than modifying my AR upper to fire .458 SOCOM.

Well...............I wanted to mod my AR anyways, plus it will be cheaper and more powerful than the 44mag. The 44mag could be considerably shorter without SBRing it though and probably half the size of an AR if I did go the SBR route...........................decisions, decisions.

Who should I go with to re-build my upper into a 458 SOCOM and how much is it gonna cost me? Please include the best choice in a suppressor in the cost, if you don't mind.

I truely appreciate you guys helping me out.

swampf0x

http://www.srtarms.com/7744.htm

For the 44 mag this would be a good option. The 77/44 is on the net for about $550 + SRT integral $785 + optional fast twist barrel $345 = $1680. This will do every thing you want to do plus it will probably handle the hottest loads you can find. This is the gun you are seeing on youtube.
I like it.


You could use a factory 77/44 or Encore with 240s possibly 300s and an a 45 acp suppressor. The gun would be $550 to $600. Suppressors would run from $450 to $1150. You would be limited to subsonic ammo

http://teppojutsu.com/welcome.htm

Send him an e-mail. He can tell you exactly what a barrel and bolt for your AR will cost. Swapping an AR barrel is fairly easy. Your local gunsmith should do it for a minimal cost. Rikky Lee is putting one together he may have a source on barrels as well. I say no more than $350 for the barrel. The suppressors can run from $700 to $1400. Elite Iron quoted me a price of $750. You can use the 458 suppressor on multiple host rifles .45 acp 44 mag or what ever.


This does not include you tax stamps. The SRT would be a one stamp gun. I know you want a SBR AR. You can form 1 on you AR in say a 10.5 223. Then just have your gunsmith hack the barrel off. $200 for the tax and $70 for the gun smith to cut and recrown. If you want some other caliber in the future just get an upper and slap it on.

OK....................what about the .45acp, it's subsonic, mushrooms, AR kits are available, they use heavy bullets??????? Screw on cans that I have watched videos of are very quiet. I could SBR it

Or perhaps the 45 Win Mag? I found a few articles on the net where MI Carbines were used as a host for different caliber barrels. 9mm, and 45 win mag seem to be the most common. The 45 Win Mag is pretty much just a longer 45acp case. The M1 Carbine could also be broke down enough to put it in a bullpup stock.

Back to the Ruger 44mag carbine........................It has been replaced by the 99/44 Deerfield. Apparently they are designed off of the Mini 14. Could one of these be suppressed and still operate in semi mode? I know Bullpup stocks (very cheap ones) are made for the Mini 14, so I would think that one could be made for the 99/44. They are close in price to the 77/44mag and I'd prefer a semi auto if it will function.

Neither of the businesses you posted links to are accepting orders right now.

thanks,
swampf0x

http://www.mgimilitary.com/store/ind...products_id=39

http://www.pac-nor.com/ They make 458 barrels.

http://www.rockriverarms.com/index.c...ategory_id=253


You may be hard pressed to get the 45 acp up to 1050. If you are set on a AR SBR do the 458 SOCOM. Regardless of what you do, it will take time. Don't rush into it. There are 458 uppers for sell on http://458socomforums.com/index.php all the time. Call the companies ask them what their times are running. You could be one of the first to do a 450 Bushmaster. At some point you're just going to have to do some leg work and pull the trigger on this project.

I'm not set on doing an AR just yet. I want a very quiet, compact, semi auto deer dropper. Base rifle could be anything from an SBR AR to an M1 carbine rechambered to something bigger, but not so big that the receiver can't handle the stress.

I assume most bullets of the same weight will require close to the same powder charge to launch either bullet at 1050fps. So in theory...............44mag, 44 special, 45 win mag, 450 Bushmaster, 458SOCOM ect will all have pretty much the same pressure, velocity, trajectory, and terminal ballistics.............granted, heavier is better.

ps
thanks for the links.

swampf0x

Semi auto and quiet dont work well together compared to a single shot or bolt action quiet.
I have Ar's in 22 lr, 300 Whisper, 9mm, 45acp, 458soc and
even with the best cans out there they dont come close to as quiet
as a closed brech gun.
With my AR 458 i can kill a animal but the others will hear it at 200 yrds easy,
With the 44 mag sigle shot/bolt action they dont hear it at 100 yrds
and I can get another accurate shot on a second and sometimes a third animal before they figure out whats going on.
My single shot TC 510 whisper is much quieter than the AR 458
with sub ammo.
You need to decide how quiet you realy want then decide
semi or single shot as you are the only one here that knows how quiet you need to get the job done.

I watched several videos of suppressed firearms on the net. The semi auto .45acp sounds very quiet to me as do the single shot 44mags. I was hoping to get close the same suppression as what I've watched.
I figured that in a bullpup stock, hunting from a blind (solid structure) most of the action noise would be absorbed by the blind. The muzzle would be the only thing sticking out the window. Is this assumption incorrect?

I want minimal noise in a semi auto. I realize it won't be as quiet as a single shot, but I hope to get close. There isn't a lot of room in these hunting blinds. Full sized rifles are hard to maneuver without making a racket. That's why I want a bullpup so bad. With a bullpup I can have a rifle as short as 25-26" and not have to pay for SBR tax. A full sized 77/44 rifle with an integral is still gonna be longer than that. Add $200 to the price tag, SBR it and it's still longer or at least very close to it.

So, if at all possible..................I want a SA bullpup rifle with an integral suppressor. I want to cause as much damage as possible in this configuration and be decently accurate.

The Ruger 99/44 should be a good start. I know it will need re-barreled and a custom stock will have to be designed and built, plus the integral suppressor. The M1 carbine (with the same modifications) could also be chambered to 45 Win Mag and used, and probably the Ruger 44Mag Carbine as well. I suppose an AK47 could also be used. I saw an AK bullpup somewhere before...............Vector Arms maybe??????????? I'm sure there are others, if you know of a better configuration or better host please inform me.

swampf0x

An AK is the loudest option you have mentioned so far. It is a piston gun and vents gas from the tube.

Any thing with a barrel shorter than 16" or an overall length less than 26" will require a tax stamp.


I hate bullpup guns, but to each their own.


My AR is 23" with the suppressor it will be about 34" long. You will not get much shorter than that with an AR.


The shortest gun you will be get will be an Encore type gun. Short barrel it and get the appropriate suppressor. You can even get a folding stock for it. It would be a two stamp gun, but the options are limitless when it comes to caliber.


The larger the bore diameter the louder it will be. The 44 defy this some with the huge internal volume of the integrals they use. Longer barrels are typically quieter than the same gun with a shorter barrel.

What's most important? (Length, single shot, bolt, semi auto, suppression) Pick one and go from there.


For the price of that semi auto + a barrel job you could get an Encore with a .44 mag, 45acp, and a 45-70 barrel. Well at least two barrels. Buy a suppressor suitable for the 45-70 and you could use it on all three.

From my reading of where this thread is going the Contender is the obvious solution. The other option is something along the lines of a de Lisle carbine but money comes into it.

We live in a world of compromise; using silencers forces us to compromise more. For mine, first shot accuracy with good terminal performance ranks best followed closely by not disturbing the neighbors (the main reason for needing a silencer?).

SwampFox
The video's dont realy show you how a gun with a can realy sounds.
as I have a AR 45acp integral too and in a video its sounds close to
the same as my 44mag integral but in person the 44mag wins for quiet.
My next barrel for a TC will be a 45/70 so I can shoot heavy lead subsonic like the AR 458 socom but quieter.
.
This AR 45acp spanks the AR 458 socom in quiet and would probably do what
you need but they are not cheap to build at all.
http://i197.photobucket.com/albums/a...l2websized.jpg