Best Bullet Weight
 

I was contacted today about us making a dedicated bullet for the 300 Whisper from one of your members. We make plated bullets, making a sub-sonic rifle bullet a viable product for us. I need to look at our exsisting tooling and see what weight we can make. We currently make a 150gr FP, but was asked for a 200gr+ bullet. Pricing would be somewhere around the $150 per 1,00 range for a 200gr bullet. I need to know what profile and weight would be the best starting point. We swage a lead core and copper plate the core. The bullet is then put back into a die and re-strike it for the final dimension.

I'll play. Since it is for subsonic I'd like a 240 or 250 gr round nose or flat point or even hollow point. At subsonic velocities the shape of the bullet nose is irrelevant but a boat tail base would be nice. If it would expand at 800-1000 fps I'd even give it a try on small deer. A 200 gr is okay but since velocity is not a factor heavier is better in my book because they tend to cycle better in a broader range of weapons. Of course my response is worth little to nothing more than what you gave for it. :wink:

I'm in for a 220, 240 and 250 grn bullets made any way you can to get some
expansion at sub speeds for hunting.
If you decide to start making heavy 30 cal bullets let us know so
we can spread the news and build up the sales for you.
I would be in for 3000 to start with :wink:

+1 to the above.

I use your bullets in my 40 cal pistol and the 150gr FP you mentioned in a 30-30. I have tried the 150gr FP, but the flat area is too large and will not feed in an AR15 platform.

I agree that a heavier bullet in the 220gr-250gr range would be nice. I would like to see something with a fairly high BC. If it would expand at the subsonic velocities that would be even better.

I already like your bullets, so if I could get them for the Whisper I would definitely be ordering more.

I'd vote for 250 grains (+/- 10 grains) that will either start tumbling within an inch or so of hitting something heavier than air OR has a large hollow point. The need to cycle in a AR-15 makes it more of a design challenge!:grin:

Jay,

Thanks for taking time to talk with me about this project. I am impressed that you came here to solicit input! The goal I had in mind was getting a bullet that would expand reliably at subsonic velocities. Nose profile should be no more blunt (for lack of a better word) than the 220 gr round nose bullets from Sierra or Hornady. Both of these bullets have fed well in my whisper AR's and bolt actions. As I mentioned in my e-mail, a small hollowpoint might aid in expansion (but I'll certainly defer to the experts as far as design goes). 220 - 240 grain weight would be ideal. Depending on length, they might even stabilize in some 10-twist barrels. If you folks can come up with a bullet that will expand well and hold together in a 875 to 1040 fps window, you WILL sell a boatload of them! Thanks again for your interest!

Ed

I'm in for some 220's. How thick is the copper plate?

How bout something like this in the 220-250gr range. Flat base, truncated ogive, wide meplat, HP .308-.309

Your .429 240

http://i201.photobucket.com/albums/a...-240-hp_tn.jpg

Jay

Looking forward to your comments on what is practical from a manufacturing point of view. I think, to summarize comments so far, we want everything:

a. a very heavy bullet (220 to 250 grains)

b. with a hollow point that expands at low velocity

c. that feeds in a semi auto

For me, the reason I like the Whisper concept, is that tumbling factor. Noting that a 1/8 twist barrel in theory causes the 240 grain Sierra MKs to tumble after hitting something, would a rear heavy subsonic bullet at 250 grains do the same thing? And would a long, small diameter hollow point assist in making that projectile unstable at subsonic velocities?

Due to the drag being on the rear of subsonic projectiles - BT or RBT would be far supperior to flat base ( long distance ). 220, 240 BT with HP that will expand - mark me down for 2,000.....200 gr .357 if you are looking for some more to make. We do appreciate you looking into this.....

This is the reason I contacted Berry's to start with. I just killed a doe last Friday with a 240 SMK. Slight quartering-to shot. 30 cal entrance hole and 30 cal exit hole. No tumbling at all even after hitting the spine and deflecting down and out through the ribs on the other side. IMHO, an expanding bullet would be much more of a game stopper than continuing to HOPE for the bullet to tumble.

Thanks for the Input
 

Thanks for all the input, I have been talking to our engineers about what we can make with exsisting tooling. We will have to make some of the tooling so I am going to have to post a thread when I have a better answer. We will be limited to between 200-220gr due to the OAL of our current dies and setup for the presses. I am convinced the expansion on our bullets will be perfect for the Whisper. Once again thanks for the response.

Jay Phillips
Berry's MFG:smile:

Jay - good news.

Scoop - how long did it take to find the doe after you shot it?

Gelatin Test
 

Since I don't have access to a 300 Whisper, how about if I supply 100 of our 150gr bullets and a tube of ballistic gelatin to one of your members who would be willing to load and test for all of us to see. I will leave it up to this forum to pick a member to run the test and provide us with loading data and images of the gelatin results. I have a Bullet Test Tube sitting behind my desk and I would like to see what our 150gr FP does pushed through a Whisper.

I would like to see something in the 240-250 grain range with a decent BC and an expanding hollow point design. Ability to feed in an AR weapons system would be nice as well.

I can help
 

I would also be interested in a lot of these bullets. We are tooling and developing loads at Center Street Brass/Crossfire Ammuntion in Provo UT to load subsonics commercially for the 300 Whisper. We already do a lot of business through Berry and are down there weekly to pick up bullets. I would be willing to help with anything that is needed and we are VERY excited about the possiblity of 220 grainers that expand at sub-sonic levels. We would be in for at least 3000 to start and untold many more.

Fortunately the shot was high and hit the spine. She dropped where I shot her. Good thing too, as there was very minimal bleeding through the exit hole and none at all from the entrance (I had to probe around with my fingers and pull hair back just to find the hole). Following that blood trail would have been a real "on-hands-and-knees" experience. No doubt a hole through the heart or lung will kill a deer, but finding enough blood to follow will require a larger exit hole IMHO. YMMV.

I'm willing to do the testing. I aready have plenty of your 150 gr Flat point bullets (I load them in .308 Subsonic for use in 12-twist barrels). I'll just need a general protocol and the gelatin. What say the group?

I would also be interested in something between 240-250 gr. 220 would be nice but I'd really like something at 250 with some degree of expansion.

Thanks for voluntering to do the testing...really interested to see how this comes out...

As a note, I have some of these bullets that I load in a 30-30. I tried loading some dummy loads in my whisper thinking that they would be an inexpensive plinking bullet. In my AR they would not feed from the magazine. They would jam on the magazine or the feed ramps. The front meplat was a little too wide to work. Hopefully if you design a round for the Whisper specifically it would have a little more of a point to it.

Well Put. +1

Bullet Profile
 

I have a die that I might be able to RE-Strike the flat points in to make a spire point out of them. I'm going to try to hand strike them and see what I come up with. That should take care of the feeding problems in the AR platform.

That would be nice. I would definitely like to try those out. I use 150gr bullets as a plinking load. It would still be nice to have a heavier bullet though. One of the main reasons I use the 150gr bullets in the Whisper is they are a whole lot cheaper than most of the 200+ bullets that are out there.

If you could come out with a 220gr+ bullet in the $150/1000 range like you mentioned, could see that easily becoming a do all bullet for some shooters, like me. There wouldn't be a need to buy cheaper FMJs for practice and expensive 220gr bullets for huntining if you provided an inexpensive heavy bullet that performs well on game at subsonic velocities. I know that may be a lot to ask, but I think you guys have a good chance of doing it.

I would be in for some 220 grn for sure. Im using Sierra RN 220 at the moment at $28 a hundred. Im thinking about buying some 175 grn ball ammo from Wideners. This looks like one of the best bullets for the money I have found for plinking. Im still having some cycling issues from my M1S upper and I dont think any thing lighter would work.. However Im waiting on my can to get approval and I think this will fix the problems. It's just right on the edge of working all the time..
But I would be interested in some bullets when you get them cranking. 220 grn - Big HP - still feeds great from a AR 15 - small BT would help for loading - Thin jacket might help expansion - and most of all cheap.. LOL !!
Tall order I know.. Good luck

Awesome. I'd be in for one or two thousand. My Whisper is on a single-shot, so bullet profile isn't as important to me. But since there are a lot of AR15 .300 Whisper owners, feeding in an auto is going to be a determining factor in whether or not the bullets sell well.

I'd like to see them sell so that this becomes a regular or semi-regular production item.

Ooh, very interesting...
I occasionally shoot 200gr cast gas check (Lee mold) from my whisper but never with the can attached. I believe a plated bullet would take away my worries.
A 220-250 (maybe even heavier? I can dream can't I?) with whatever point it would take to keep from deforming in an autoloader (AR15 based) Just make sure it can be used in a standard AR16 magazine when loaded with a subsonic charge. I don't think a boat tail would be needed since at subsonic velocity the difference in drag/ballistic coeffecient would be insignificant.
Maybe a truncated cone? it would give a strong tip and acceptable ballistics. A pointed tip would be great for targets but not as good for hunting. Hollowpoint would be awesome but how would it affect the price and accuracy? Roundnose, well, they are out there and they are used but are only popular because there ain't much to choose from on the cheap end of the bullet scale.

sounds to good to be true but I will be keeping an eye on this thread if it happens to be true I would give them a try, if I like the price I would buy ALOT:smile:

I am with GaryM on the request.

Bullet
 

I'm in for 220 grain and as Gary said the BT is unnecessary at sub-sonic velocities as the BT mostly helps when super sonic bullets are passing through trans sonic..
The bullet would sure beat the heck out of buying SMK's

I shoot plated bullets out of my 9mm and 40 S&W. I shot a bunch of them into a plastic 55 gal drum of water and none of the jackets came off.
I shot lower and lower on the drum and then duct taped the holes and started over.

Boattail Handgun Bullets
By Robert R. Sauter (AKA Bullet Bob...)








I am just throwing out some thoughts on the subject. Really it's pure conjecture and I am really very excited about the Scientific results and conclusions that we have derived.

We just may have revolutionized and changed industry standards since 1905"; "making the flat base bullet obsolete"; or at least questioning it. We (NwCP) are at the forefront of revolutionizing the handgun bullet. "sub-sonic velocities", that's were most handguns are and operate (below the speed of sound). Please note the turbulence from "cursory fluid dynamics analysis" photos and note the lack of turbulence behind the bullet of the RBT as opposed to the drag caused by the flat base bullet.

Science has now proven that the base of the bullet is MORE important than the nose of the bullet at handgun velocities. This is what allows the increased penetration and accuracy.


Now i have "Scientific" proof!!!



Here are the NwCP Boat-tail measured BC's and related data and cursory fluid dynamics analysis photos.


All projectiles measured at a velocity range of 925-800fps. Testing was done through a tandem six screen chronograph (Slide 1) at ranges of 3 to 100 yards. The deceleration data and resulting drag data was checked by placing onion skin paper on the chronograph frames. By comparing bore line with actual bullet drop, the drag function could be checked. The test firearm is a Thompson Contender, in .45 Colt, barrel clamped to a rigid bench. Trigger actuation was remote hydraulic and all loads were with Blue Dot powder, Starline cases and Federal Large Pistol primers. NwCP projectiles were compared to the Hornady 300 grain XTP, Hornady 300 grain SST, and Speer 260 grain JHP. These bullets were selected because they represent some of the best bullets in their class. Some bullets tested were excluded from test results, because of lack of quality or lack of specific gravity..


A second experiment was conducted to determine the depth of penetration in water. This test was conducted by simply firing the various projectiles into an twelve foot water trough (Slide 2) and measuring the distance traveled.


Results:

Temp 48°F

Elevation 2500 ft

Barometric Pressure 30.00





Table 1

Projectile
G1 Ballistic Coefficient (800-900fps)

NWCP .452” 260gr. Rebated Boat Tail
.200±.002 lb/in2 n=5

NWCP .452” 300gr. Rebated Boat Tail
.265±.001 lb/in2 n=5

Speer .452” 260gr. JHP
.173±.001 lb/in2 n=5 (.171 reported by Speer)a

Hornady .452” 300gr. XTP
.194±.002 lb/in2 n=5 (.200 reported by Hornady)a

Hornady .453” 300gr. SST
.248±.004lb/in2 n=5 (.250 reported by Hornady)a


a The ballistic coefficients provided by Speer and Hornady are not necessarily “G1”.

Projectile
Penetration in Water (1000 fps)b

NwCP .452” 260gr. Rebated Boat Tail
78.7±2.4 inches n=8

NwCP .452” 300gr. Rebated Boat Tail
92.1±3.1 inches n=8

Speer .452” 260gr. JHP
50.0±5.3 inches n=15

Hornady .452” 300gr. XTP
70.6±2.4 inches n=8c

Hornady .453” 300gr. SST
79.5±4.3 inches n=8


bThese are normalized impact velocities.

cThe Hornady XTP did expand a small amount at this impact velocity, decreasing its penetration.

Note: NwCP 260 grain vs Hornady SST 300 grain inches of penetration in water.

Note: NwCP 260 grain B.C. vs Hornady 300 grain XTP B.C.



Conclusions:


The lower drag observed with the NwCP RBBT bullets provides for a higher ballistic coefficient and less measured drop as compared to more traditional handgun bullets. In some cases these differences are large (Table 1). The .45 caliber 300 grain NwCP RBBT G1 coefficient is 25+% higher than the .45 caliber Hornady XTP and 6% higher than the Hornady SST. The 260 grain NwCP RBBT G1 coefficient is 13% higher than the Speer 260 grain JHP. In addition, these bullets provide this ballistic advantage without the need for a sharp bullet point, which would limit their use in tubular magazines.


Along the same lines as the air-drag measurements, the water penetration measurements further display the streamline nature of the rebated boat tail design at handgun velocities. The .45 caliber 300 grain NwCP RBBT penetrated an incredible 92 inches of water at an impact velocity of 1000 fps. This is a full 12 inches (13%) further than the pointed Hornady SST at the same impact velocity. It should be noted here that the Hornady XTP did begin expansion at these velocities and this did likely limit its penetration. The 260 grain NwCP RBBT also performed exceptionally well with a penetration of nearly 79 inches; a full 36% further than the Speer 260 grain.


To further explain the mechanics of these observations, we have provided a cursory fluid dynamics analysis of three of the bullet forms at a simulated 1000 fps velocity. Slide 3 shows a comparison streamline plot of the Hornady 300 grain XTP (plot a), Hornady 300 grain SST (plot b), and the NwCP 300 grain RBBT (plot c). Upon visual inspection of the three plots, one can make two important observations. First of all, one can see the reduced turbulence at the base of the NwCP RBBT design compared to the other two bullets. Second, it is apparent that at these velocities, the nose profile makes little difference.


Table 2

Projectile
G1
Calculated Drag

300 grain NwCP RBBT
.265
0

300 grain Hornady SST
.250 (+5%)
+4%

300 grain Hornady XTP
.200 (+25%)
+40%



Calculated drag coefficients, from the fluid dynamics analysis, match with the experimental G1 values (Table 2). The NwCP RBBT design is predicted by the fluid dynamics analysis to have a drag roughly 4% better than the pointed Hornady SST design at these velocities. The experimental value was determined to be 5%. The NwCP RBBT design is predicted to have a 40% advantage over the Hornady XTP of the same weight by the fluid dynamics analysis. The experimental G1 difference was determined to be 25%. This may seem like a discrepancy; however one must remember that the experimental values are G1 ballistic coefficients that do not model the behavior of the XTP design very well. This is an important note, because it further supports the use of fluid dynamics over arbitrary ballistic coefficients.


The moral of this story is: at sub-sonic velocities the handgun bullets' base has a great deal more importance than the nose of the bullet in reference to accuracy, B.C. and penetration, PERIOD!!!!!!


The most important thing to remember about a bullet base or any flat surface is the bigger the base, the bigger the vortex it will create. An example of this is: lay two sheets of plywood on top of each other, then try and pick up the top one with out picking up the bottom. It takes a lot of effort and eventually the bottom one breaks free. Now do the same thing with the plywood sheet turned on its edge; they separate easily. This same theory applies to the base of a bullet. The bigger it is, the more it tries to pull everything with it. The smaller the base is, the better it goes through things. This is why my little football bullet works so well!


© Copyright 2008 Robert R Sauter (NwCP)

All rights reserved,including the right to reproduce this article or any part thereof in any form or by any means,electronic or mechanical,including photo-copying,recording, or by any information storage and retrieval system, without permission in writing from NwCP..


Thanks,



Robert R. Sauter (AKA Bullet Bob...)

406-723-8683 (anytime)




Specialty Projectiles for Small Arms

Custom Produced by:

Northwest Custom Projectile

Robert R. Sauter (AKA BULLET BOB)

P.O. Box 127

Butte,Montana 59703

406-723-8683

http://www.customprojectile.com





Independent testing was done by:

Buchanan Ammunition Company, Inc.

1535B Crockett Ridge

Coeburn, VA 24230

(276)-395-3975 TEL

http://www.buckammo.com



Fluid Dynamics Analysis

DSB Scientific Consulting

616 Finch Ct., Lugoff, SC 29078

(803)-408-2729 TEL

© DSB Scientific Consulting 2008














© Copyright 2008 Robert R Sauter Permission has been granted to GunLoads.com for display of this article.

Copyright © Gunloads.com. DO NOT publish elsewhere without written permission.
Published on: 2008-08-17, last modification in: 2008-08-17 (2061 reads)













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(The above was taken from Gunload website.) Don't quite agree with the post above mine about the base of the bullet not mattering. Whether it be pistol or rifle bullet, the effect of drag at sub speeds are the same. Short distances would probably not have any noticable diferences, but as the ranges are extended? But if you can produce a product that the AR people are happy with, it will be an improvement for everybody. P.S. Have contacted the North Pole, can you have some ready for Christmas?

I'm new to the forum, but I'd be interested too, Santa is bringin me a .300 Whisper for X-mas.

Count me in

Anything new from Berry's are you guys still on here?

Definately! Don't worry about advertising. If you can make a heavy bullet (at least 240gr) that has good uniform dimensions throughout the lot AND do it for the price you are talking about then sales will be HIGH!


I'd like a 240 BTHP or maybe perhaps a Spire point that will perform better on hogs and such.

$150 for a 1000 bullets? Put me down for at least 3k!!!!

On page one it says $150 per 100= $1.50 each

You're right, it does say 100, but they way the comma is in there I think they probably mistyped it. $150/1000 is more along the pricing of the rest of their bullet offerings. I can't imagine them selling this bullet design at $1.50 a round when you look at the rest of their prices.

Any word on this? I think 300 grains of soft lead, about the size of a Crayon, a little bit of a point, most of it undersize, .300", a .308" few driving bands and a little copper plating would make a hell of subsonic bullet. No expansion, just blunt, bend and tumble.

This cant be rocket science.... why is this harder then it sounds?

OK Berry's bullets! We need an update please.......