Yet Another M1S Upper Report
 

I hate to start another thread, but didn't want to hijack anyone else's either.

I just got a new M1S upper (a week or so ago):

A3 Upper, 16" 1:8 twist with a chrome bolt and carrier (based on people's recommendations that the chrome bolt cycles easier... seems to work). Gas port is at the carbine position.

I cleaned the upper and lubed the bolt well.

Also, I'm using standard GI 20 round mags and a 6 position carbine stock with the stock spring and plunger.

Oh, also the gas port is .125. Strangely enough when I called M1S and asked if their .300 Fireball upper would cycle sub-sonics they said no. Then I asked what size the gas port was and after checking she said .125. I can't image it would be much good to shoot a super-sonic load with that size port and no adjustable gas system, but...

I'm setting this up for strictly sub-sonic 220 SMK loads.

Ran five rounds of H-110 w/9.2gns and the first two shots cycled completely, the remaining three ejected but did not strip the next round. They were all running slow at around 950 fps.

The next five rounds was 13gns of Reloader 7. All cycled properly and the bolt locked back after the last round. Ran about 1200+ fps. A little fast. I had one or two pierced primers, but no other pressure signs.

Last was five rounds with 11.5gns of 1680. Ran about 1050 fps on average and all rounds cycled properly. Also had a couple of pierced primers, but no other pressure signs.

I'm using Winchester small rifle (WSR) primers. I've read that they're a little soft (never had any trouble with my .223 loads though). I'm going to try some CCI-41 milspec primers next time.

Also, COAL was around 2.160

So far I'm very pleased. Today I'm loading up some more and am going to see how the accuracy is. I also picked up some PMags since everyone seems to like them.

If anyone's interested, I can post my spreadsheet with the trim to, COALs, brass and primer types, velocity's, etc.

primers
 

I use CCI-450 primers with no problems ..

Upper
 

If you look at a few of my last posts .. we are doing many of the same things :)

My M1S upper will cycle some sub-sonics.. I found the trick with mine was the powder burn rate. I'm sticking with 1680 or slower ..

My M1S upper is a 1 to 1.5 MOA gun .. I consider it a base on which to build a better whisper .. After I get my suppressor and get it all dialed in I'm going to re-barrel !

Yes, I'm going to stick with AA1680 also. It's given me the most consistent velocities and has always cycled the rifle.

Still experimenting with loads. I tried the H110 with a little hotter load and got around 1150 fps... still wouldn't cycle the rifle reliably so its out as far as my rifle is concerned.

I started out at 50 yards zeroing the rifle in. With the AA1680 loads I put five shots all on top of each other, pretty much the same hole. Moved it out to 100 yards and the group opened up to about 2 inches... but I'm blaming that on myself (it was hot, I was tired, and the target was in a heavily shaded area so I couldn't see it very well). Going to try again in a few days.

KDiver, what barrel are you looking at going to?

How do you guys deal with the amount of drop the Whisper/Fireball has at sub-sonic speeds? With my .223 varmit rifle I can guess the distances close enough to put a round in a 'chuck's head up to 200 yards or so. Looks like with the .300 I'll need a range-finder... it drops 4.5 inches from 100 to 125 yards if you zero at 100.

Bullet drop
 

I mounted a scope with mil dots and lots of travel in the knobs. I was lobbing them out to 300 yards and had over 9 feet of drop :)
But I was able to hit a 12 by 12 plate at the distance..

BTW it's a Falcon Menace 10X

Flewis,

Here is some load data from the Sierra manual for 220 gr MK. These are the starting loads, so you should not be getting any pierced primers. Even with the Winchester primers. (I use Winchester primers and have not pierced any primers. Even with the max loads that I have worked up to.)

I suspect that there is something wrong with the firing pin and/or the bolt/carrier. I would call M1 and ask them to send you another bolt/carrier and firing pin.

AA#9--9.4 1000 fps
2300--10.0 1000 fps
VN110--9.4 1000 fps
H110--9.9 1000 fps
W296--9.8 1000 fps
VN120--11.5 1000 fps
AA1680--11.7 1000 fps

320pf

P.S. Check out the pride fowler scopes. The 22LR has nearly identical ballistic trajectories and the 330-221 fireball sub-sonics.

Pride Fowler !
 

Wow I need to check that out I have a Pride Fowler RR scope on my 10/22!

Oh I was going to order a Shilen barrel blank and machine my own.. But that's down the road .. K

This is a bit off topic but people might find this useful.

Here are the ballistics for a Sierra 220 gr MK at 1080 fps compared to a Sierra 40 gr hornet varminter bullet at 1230 fps. I know that the 40 gr varminter bullet has a better B.C. but it still demonstrates the ballistic similarities between sub-sonic 300-221 fireball loads and the 22LR. Out to about 200 yrds., the ballistics are close enough. If you are looking for a scope to use with sub-sonic loads the Pride Fowler might be considered.


Calculated Table Sierra 220 MK at 1080 fps
Range Drop
(yds) (in)
100 -0.0
200 -30.8
300 -96.3
400 -199.0
500 -341.1

Calculated Table Sierra 40 gr at 1230 fps
Range Drop
(yds) (in)
100 -0.0
200 -32.9
300 -110.6
400 -243.9
500 -445.0


http://www.rapidreticle.com/img/22LR3-9.jpg

320pf

Thanks for the info guys. On the pierced primers, I had no problem using the CCI-41s. I will check the firing pin length and compare other specs to the bolt in my .223 AR which I've had no trouble with using the WSR primers.

I did notice that the ballistics are pretty much identical to the CCI Standard Velocity (sub-sonic) .22 LR that I shoot a lot of. Now that I think about it, they should be the same other than a slight adjustment for the difference in drag between the .22 and .308 bullets.

I'm loading up another 50 rounds and going back out in a few days to dial it in at 100 and 200 yards. This time using new .223 brass to form the cases and AA1680 powder.

I have a box of .221 Fireball brass that I've formed a few cases from. Many of them look like the neck isn't exactly centered on the cartridge body, which I've read can be a problem when necking up the .221 brass. I hand picked the best looking ones and have used them in my load/velocity testing. If I use the rest of those .221 cases to make .300 Whisper brass, should I expect to see a degradation in accuracy? Just wondering if I should bother necking the rest of those up...

I too have a mildot scope w/target turrets.
I've found it easiest when I switch to subsonic loads to simply crank in about 13-14" of UP elevation & then hold dead on the target @ 100 yards.
This is NOT the problem.
The problem comes into estimating 140/150/160 yards as the drop gets severe.
A 200 yard range finder would be ideal!
If you know the distance, it's very easy to dial in elevation & wind drift is minimal w/220 & 240g subsonics.
I use H-110 & VV N-110 w/all loads & everything cycles fine w/M1S upper & A2 stock w/A2 spring & CAR buffer.

Don't know if this will help, I use a 4.5x14 Mark 4 .....I do similar as you do except I zero at 100, a crank of 7" puts it pretty close at 140 to 160.....a crank of 14" puts it dead on at 200 with 220gr SMK at 1,050fps....

kurtz

Update
 

Well, I loaded up 50 rounds of the following:

Cases formed from new Winchester .223
trimmed to 1.365
11.6 grains of AA1680
220 grain SMK
COAL at 2.170

All 50 cycled perfectly and the spent brass all looks good.

Shooting from a bench with good sand bags.

However, accuracy sucked at 100 yards. I'll post pics of the targets in a little bit. The groups were large and strung diagonally. I'm using a lower with a match trigger that usually has my .223 varmit upper on it (which I can shoot dime size groups with all day long at 100 yards).

Any ideas on what I should look at for the accuracy problem? I have a cheap scope (NRA Brunton 6-24x50). I'm wondering if it isn't holding zero for some reason.

From the targets, it looks like the 220s are stabilizing (no keyholing). The velocities are all within about 30 fps of each other. How much velocity difference does it take to really start throwing shots? I'd like to get this rifle down to inch or inch and a half groups at 100 yards.

http://rx7.voodoobox.net/images/M1SFireball.jpg

http://rx7.voodoobox.net/images/Target1.jpg

http://rx7.voodoobox.net/images/Target2.jpg

On my AR whispers, supersonic fire-formed brass seems to be more accurate than first formed subsonic brass....you may also try pushing the load a little faster, even if it goes supersonic, just to see if the groups tighten up....my most consistant accurate 220SMK loads are just on the supersonic side, most of the subsonics are right at 1" or a little bigger....my more accurate loads are set right at the lands or slightly engraved....

Thanks, I'll try both if those suggestions.

The barrel twist is 1:8 (confirmed). That should work well with the 220s, right?

1:8 ~ 220SMK....that is correct....

Kurtz,
Going to try some of the 208 AMaxs on Sunday.
I'll give it a +21" of clicks & shoot @ 200yards.
I have no intermediate targets except 25, 50, 100, 200y.

Hope the A Max's work for you. Mine didn't.:mad:

Been thinking... If the accuracy of this M1S upper doesn't improve, I'm either gonna go one of two ways with it. One: rebarrel with (insert reccomended brand) and length. Two: get another tax stamp and cut it back to something like 8 inches or so, redrill the gas port to the pistol location, reinstall my Phantom adapter and YHM can and cover it with a 12" free float tube so the can just sticks out some and have a smith build me up a bolt action whisper on a Rem700 action.

Really leaning toward option 2. This one is pissing me off so far.

Anyone know of a place selling .300 Fireball barrels now?

Novekse doesn't, AR15Barrels.com seems to be gone, SSK won't sell just the barrel and so on...

Barrels
 

Just get a (insert barrel maker here) and have a good AR-15 smith ream it and thread it... That's what I'm going to do once I get the rest of the bugs out.
I'm not as unhappy as interceptor .. but it could be a LOT better ...

Interceptor,
Did you get free float hand guards from M1S?

However, accuracy sucked at 100 yards
 

Flewis, I would try another scope before writing off the barrel. I have a rem700 .223 20" bull that I was developing some loads for. At 100yds, with 100% match prep brass and 53gr SMK's, I would get 2 in the same hole, then point of impact would shift almost 1.5". Then another 2 shots in the same hole, then different POI. My scope was a BSA (read cheapo) and it was mounted rock solid. Changed scopes, and 5shot/1hole groups @100 yds. From looking at your group, I suspect that your scope mounting or internals(most likely) are moving. YMO. Mike

I second that notion, get a decent scope. I had a bsa scope once on a .223 AR, I could never hit anything, changed scopes and my groups are sub MOA. Each time I took it out it would have a different zero.
The best cheap scope that I've found is a Tasco Target Varmint 2.5-10 mil-dot. I've been using one for 3 years, haven't touched the zero and have put over 1 thousand rounds through the gun. That and I remove it after every time I take it out(I have a 1 piece M1S mount).

Jon

Well, I tried a different scope that I know is good and got the same results.

I also tried some faster loads, but didn't make it very far into the supersonic range. I'm going to try some hotter loads and also try some 208 gn Hornadys.

I think someone, somewhere, posted that their M1S upper came with a loose barrel nut... is there an easy way to check that? There isn't anything obviously loose on the upper.

Nope. On this build I used a Hogue FF tube I had.

Well, tried some super-sonic 220 SMKs and some sub-sonic 208 AMaxes with the same results... the target looks like a shotgun pattern. Just to make sure it wasn't me I ran 5 rounds through my .223 upper and all the shots overlapped.

I'm finished wasting ammo in this thing. I dropped it off at the gunsmiths this afternoon to let him go over it and see if he can find a problem.

I asked this before, but I think it got lost in the thread... anyone know where I can buy a good, match quality .300 Fireball barrel?

I fell in love w/ that scope just reading about it....saw it @ Sniper Central. How do you like it? Do you have the MP-5 reticle or Mil dot?

Sorry to side track. You can PM me so we can stay on track.

I have the M1S upper only w/ out the chromed bolt. Cycles like sand in your shorts. (it's pretty new yet) Will not cycle properly w/ H-110, Reloader #5 or #7. I was going to change up the gas port location and get an adjustable block, play w/ springs and buffers and more polishing of the bolt carrier. I'm going to try the AA powder first I guess. Especially since Bushmaster has a conversion kit for gas piston. (@ about $399.)


Wow sorry guys I replied to a post from the first page...should'a checked the lower right first.


Did you have the bore, grooves and lands checked w/ a scope? You may have had a lemony fresh barrel installed. My M1S upper is pretty consistant down range w/ all loads even being "pre-broken in". I inquired w/ M1S about the key hole forge marks out of curiosity and they told me of many diff forge houses supplying their cast parts. Not sure of the barrel man, but a lot of diff resources sometimes means a broad range in tolerence and fit. What about straightness and the crown? I know most times this goes w/ out mention for most here and I don't mean to insult intel, but you sometimes forget a thing or two.

My barrel was recrowned at the same time as it was threaded for the Phantom adapter for the can, 11 deg.


<---- NOT a sastisfied M1S shopper...

last week this thread piqued my interest....I ordered everything to assemble a Model 1 300 Whisper 16" free float tube upper.....shot it Friday...after trying every make shoot trick I knew, the best I could get after around 200 rounds was about a 4" group at 100yds.....Broke it down today rechambered it in 7.62x40 thinking it might be a chamber issue and shot it today....similar results:mad: ......now that I have a base line I'm going to tear it down again and slug/check the bore and close off the port....shoot it as a single shot and hope start moving forward....

did toggle two different Mark 4 scopes between this upper and a 24" .223 upper, sighting in after moves.....the .223 would print finger nail sized groups at 100yds with either scope....the Model 1 would shoot about 1.5" at 25yds:eek:

I'll post what I find out...

Kurtz

Say it with me now.... "MODEL 1 SUCKS".


Now, does anyone know of a source for GOOD 300 whisper barrels, and I'm guessing not SSK as I don't think they will sell just the barrel.

Laughing my ass off:grin: .....It is what it is, an inexpensive blaster.....my SSK AR will shoot sub-MOA with just about anything you stick in it, but it cost probably four times as much as the Model 1 stuff, but it works...thanks JD....

I haven't checked the Model 1 yet but just from running a jag and brush....it feels tight, tight, tight....or may be over sized and rough as hell....

ETA: I just remembered....I helped a friend from Texas put together a .223 Model 1 gun about a month ago....don't know if they do this to all of them but the chamber and bore was phosphate finished, or something black and rough....the chamber was so rough that it wouldn't cycle smooth with light reloads until we polished it out, but even at that it would shoot better than 4" at 100yds....

Sounds like they are not plugginug the chamber and bore when parkerizing. Shoddy.

The gunsmith I left mine with is a good one. I asked him to go over it in detail to see what the problem was. I'll let everyone know what I find out.

this sucks, I just got a M1S hope it goes better than that, do these barrels have a break-in period? is there anyone getting any good results from their M1S, give me a little hope there has got to be some good results somewhere???

http://www.quarterbore.net/forums/ph...to=384&cat=562 125g Nos BT

http://www.quarterbore.net/forums/ph...to=452&cat=562 220g SMK

Sorry you all are having so much trouble.
Mine shoots great after tweaking loads.
Above is sample & I'm getting 1/2" w/subs.
See my photo album w/data on images.
I almost always fire lap my barrels w/LBT soft lead slugs & his lapping compound.
Did it to my M1S. Doubt that it made a huge difference but I do believe it helps almost every barrel I do it to.

so Pitt how did you go about fire lapping your barrel? was there any other little tricks you may have done? surely these M1S cant all be bad, what are the odds,,,,

I was wondering if the problems were not charge related, half a grain can sometimes throw things way off, had that happen with a LM the charging chain link kept going up/down a link every other pull and was getting crazy results from 2 different guns,very frustrating till I figured out what was happening , fix it and has been smooth sailing every since.

My 1st question is how good is your shooting w/a KNOWN accurate rifle?
How good are your scope/rings & mount/rest & shooting technique?
How's your trigger?
Hand guards free floated?

Start shooting w/the 125g Nos BT's @ supersonic.
These tend to shoot good in everyones guns & this will let you see accuracy potential.
Subsonic is next after your SURE the gun is 100%.
Subsonics can be frustrating & you need a chronograph to confirm your loads & remember they can be/are temperature sensative.

There are a LOT of things that will effect accuracy BEFORE you ever pull the trigger.

This is Wheeler's kit from Midway BUT I like LBT's below.

http://www.midwayusa.com/midwayusa/S...it%20Instr.pdf

http://www.midwayusa.com/eproductpag...612&t=11082005



LBT is at : http://www.lbtmoulds.com/index.shtml

You'll need his LAP kit & 20-40 of HIS .308 SOFT LEAD bullets.

I load about 10-15 of them subsonic which should be easy for our group.
Dip the tip of the loaded cartridge in the lap compound just like dipping an ice cream cone in a pot of hot chocolate syrup.
Carefully load directly into chamber.
Shoot so that you KNOW it has left barrel-fire thru chrono/into pond @ steep angle so no ricochet/into target or dirt berm where you can see impact.
Do about 10 w/compound & then shoot 3-5 w/o just to "wipe" out the barrel.
Then clean the HELL out of it.
Now see how it does.
May need to do again.
He recommends covering the bullets w/compound/rolling between 2 steel plates to totally get it in all of the gas check rings/put this wet bullet in your reloading press over your primed & charged case/seat it/wipe compound off outside of case & Then clean up the dies.
My technique is how he tells you to do .22 soft lead bullets.
I'll probably start a shit storm w/this but I've had very good luck w/his products & my technique.
Try it if you like!
Don't if your not interested.
Works for me & I think my groups show that it did not hurt the barrel.

Pitt, the lapping looks like it may do the trick....I'm game to try it....

I ran a slug down the barrel today and found that the Model 1 bore was pretty tight....the slug checked at .306 and .301 (also confirmed the .301 bore with a reamer pilot)....my tightest .308 that I know that shoots good is a Palma and checks at .3075 and .298....my others go out to as much as .3085...

I remember about 15 years ago that a rifle manufacturer had to make changes to their production line because their barrels were about .002" too tight and causing out of the box accuracy problems....they made a change to free up the bore a little and the accuracy came back around....

Pitt, thanks for the info...

kurtz

I have noticed more than the usual amount of copper jacket material in my bolt when I am cleaning the rifle... makes me think this might be my problem.

This may be a stupid question, but if a bore is too tight, can it be re-rifled for that small amount or is it scrap?

home load
 

the best all around load i have worked up is 8g of 2400 with a 147g win fmj the bullets are about half the price of a match king . id go broke feeding my whispers mk every time i shoot

I single shot fired a few of the Hawk bullets out of my Model 1....the Hawks mic a little under .309.....after firing and running a chamber brush in I pulled out a perfect ring of copper jacket....looked like a little hoop ear ring....

I have never had to lap a barrel before, most of the ones I have cleaned up through normal break in/shooting, but I'm willing to try it as tight as the bore is on this one....should be able to free it up the .0015 or so and smooth out the tool marks....I don't think it would be necessary to re-rifle it for that amount, and I think getting a button to match up with the current cuts might be a little tough....

I probably won't be able to mess with mine for a week or so but I'm going to give the lap a try....