7.62x39 Experiments

[ToxicSports]

Hi all, been awhile since I've posted but I wanted to show everyone some fun rounds I've been playing with. I shoot them out of my 20"bbl Rem 799 with a Remington stated 1-9.5" twist rate.


This thread
http://www.quarterbore.net/forums/showthread.php?t=5470

started these fun loads.
L-86gr SJRN and R-90gr XTP
http://i39.photobucket.com/albums/e198/ToxicSports/762x39%20reloading/PistolBullets2-2.jpg
http://i39.photobucket.com/albums/e198/ToxicSports/762x39%20reloading/Pistolbullets-1.jpg

I have gone down as little as 3gr of Trailboss with a piece of toilet paper filler. I can put up a tutorial of what I did and it really seems to have helped. I used 2ply T-paper, separated the sheets, folded into fourths and cut about 1/8" off the folded edges.

Out of the 10 each, I loaded, all exited the barrel and ended up somewhere out in the Hay field.

Now, I never did get them over a chrony nor did I really test for accuracy. I just wanted to test for reliability...IE- Hope they didn't get stuck. Now that my new house and gun room are starting to come together I will be testing for velocities and expansion.

It will be interesting to compare the cold weather results with next years summer heat results with these rounds.

Now on the other end of the spectrum I've loaded and tested these.

R-225gr Hornady Match L-210gr Berger VLD hunting
http://i39.photobucket.com/albums/e198/ToxicSports/762x39%20reloading/200grsmall.jpg

I tested Accurate 1680 for pressure signs at higher velocities. However, before moving I was testing 18gr for the Berger and 17.5gr with the Hornady. The test bullets were shot into a Hayfield as the others. I'll not only get these over a chrony but I'll also get them on paper to see if they keyhole. I say it's gonna be iffy with the twist rate but still a REALLY fun experiment.



Scott

[Spook]

Nice! Keep us posted ....chrony figures and targets next time?:smile:

[Fritzcat]

I was using my AR 762x39 for sub-sonic hog hunting before I built my 300 and then got into 458 Socom sub-sonic. The 762x39 barrel is 16" with a 1-10 twist and Horn .308-220gr RN with 9 1/2gr Win 296 and went around 1050fps and 2"groups @ 100yds through a YHM 762 SS QD. Also Speer 200gr SP with 9 1/2 Win 296 and went around 1050 and group well. It has been a while back, but I post reports with picks of pig to show damage. The boat tail match bullets will likely not stabalize with your twist, so shoot paper before you put your can on.

[Titleiiredneck]

I was using my AR 762x39 for sub-sonic hog hunting before I built my 300 and then got into 458 Socom sub-sonic. The 762x39 barrel is 16" with a 1-10 twist and Horn .308-220gr RN with 9 1/2gr Win 296 and went around 1050fps and 2"groups @ 100yds through a YHM 762 SS QD. Also Speer 200gr SP with 9 1/2 Win 296 and went around 1050 and group well. It has been a while back, but I post reports with picks of pig to show damage. The boat tail match bullets will likely not stabalize with your twist, so shoot paper before you put your can on.


was going to post basically the same thing, try the speer hotcor line "180~200gr" also. aa#9 should work well as I used this in my old 9" x39 barrel I had, h110 should be good out of your bolt gun too.

[ToxicSports]

Spook, I'll try to get some this week.

Fritzcat, I don't have a suppressor for my 799....just a plain ol' "boring" pipe.

Scott

[ToxicSports]

Titleiiredneck, must have responded while I was typing the other response.

The other 200gr+ bullets I use are the Hornady 220gr RN as mentioned and Lapua's "subsonic" and D166. All three shoot pretty good out of the 799.

I've used H110 in the past due to the high number of suggestions. However, I was getting a fluctuation in velocities with it in my initial tests so I decided to keep that for my 454 loads. I might try it again in the near future to see if I can figure out the problem.

The slowest "heavy" subsonic I have loaded with good results was 6gr of trailboss under the Hornady 220gr RN. It sounded like a Large CCI CB rimfire...a nice POP instead of a POW. It's been awhile since I shot those and I don't want to misquote myself, since I can't find my notes, but I recall they were well under 1000fps and I could see the bullet fly down range and hit the target.

On another note about powders...have any of you tinkered with the Vihtavuori Tin Star powder? I haven't seen any locally yet.

Scott

[ToxicSports]

Well, decided to try to test the handful of remaining test loads on paper and over the chrony.

OK, here's the setup. Range 25yrds, off sandbags, around 44* and all the POA were the center X. Rifle was NOT zeroed for the cartridges.

First up is the 86gr w/ 3gr of Trailboss and filler
http://i39.photobucket.com/albums/e198/ToxicSports/762x39%20reloading/86gr25yrds.jpg

The three velocity readings were:
800.3
773.7
683.8


Next up is the XTP w/ 4gr of Trailboss and filler
http://i39.photobucket.com/albums/e198/ToxicSports/762x39%20reloading/90xtp25yrds.jpg

What's interesting about this is that I had 2 sets of speeds.

The upper two (in one hole I might add) were running at
1041
1057 fps

The lower two were clocked at
878.3
877.4 fps.

I know I'm not a pro at reloading but what do you think could have caused this? I use a powder trickler and a digital scale that reads down to .02gr.

The next was the 210 berger w/ 18gr 1680
http://i39.photobucket.com/albums/e198/ToxicSports/762x39%20reloading/Berger25yrds.jpg

This shows real promise and no seen stability issues at this close distance. Further distance might tell more.

The speeds were
1579
1601 fps....again only had 2 left to play with.

The final were the 225gr match Hornady w/ 17.5gr 1680
http://i39.photobucket.com/albums/e198/ToxicSports/762x39%20reloading/225gr25yrds.jpg

these two ran at
1555
1518fps.

As you can see they didn't go in straight but maybe would have worked in a short range SHTF scenario.

OK gotta go

Scott

[2bad4u2]

^^^ Try the lighter bullet loads using Trail Boss without the toilet paper filler. Could be your issue. I've used TP in Trail Boss lighter .308 Win. loads and accuracy was absolutely horrid. I was seeing up to 24" vertical dispersion at 100 yds. Once I got rid of the filler, the problem resolved itself.

I wouldn't expect miracles using those bullets but they should be decent enough for accuracy between 50-75 yards - 100 may be pushing it. Part of the fun is experimenting to find out, right? :wink:

[ToxicSports]

2bad,

thanks for the heads up. I have 5 w/out filler ready for testing. One quick question....did you tip the muzzle up before each test load or not?


I wouldn't expect miracles using those bullets but they should be decent enough for accuracy between 50-75 yards - 100 may be pushing it. Part of the fun is experimenting to find out, right?

I couldn't have said it any better! It seems that I've went from loading hunting ammo to experimenting more and more and it just gets more fun with each new test load.

As for miracles, it would be a miracle if I could actually get some of my normal hunting loads loaded for coyotes but I'm having way too much fun and too many different loads to test.:grin:

Scott

[2bad4u2]

2bad,

thanks for the heads up. I have 5 w/out filler ready for testing. One quick question....did you tip the muzzle up before each test load or not?



I couldn't have said it any better! It seems that I've went from loading hunting ammo to experimenting more and more and it just gets more fun with each new test load.

As for miracles, it would be a miracle if I could actually get some of my normal hunting loads loaded for coyotes but I'm having way too much fun and too many different loads to test.:grin:

Scott

Hi Scott,

No, I never bothered worth tipping the muzzle up with .300 Blackout. I've tried it with .308 Winchester loads before using Trail Boss, however, if there was any benefit to having done so, it wasn't enough to notice it on paper.

I think the bullet may be just too short for running in a .300 Blackout standard throat. The more I try, I'm lead to believe there may be just too much jump to the rifling. I can easily get 10-shot 2.5 MOA groups @ 100 yds. using Hornady 110 .30 Carbine FMJ bullets in .308 Winchester with 12.5 gr. Trail Boss. The Blackout has been a challenge using these bullets. I had high hopes they'd work as I have several thousand of them and I'd like to use them up. Where the 7.62x39mm is throated for 123gr. FMJ bullets, you may not experience this problem.

The Speer Plinker has a good reputation for plinking accuracy in .308 Win., .30-06, and .30.30 Win. I've yet to read where anyone has tried them in .300 Blackout. I suspect they won't be much better than the .30 Carbine bullets but one will never know until they try. :wink: For 7.62x39mm use they may be useful.

Keep us posted on the progress. If you CAN get it to work, a lot of us would like to know.

[Ned christiansen]

I've used carbine bullets in .300 Whisper with OK results-- both SP's and FMJ's. Just fiddling around though, no real science, and I was running them supersonic through an 8" barrel. Assuming they do the same speed or thereabouts as my other 110 loads, it's like M1 Carbine +P you might say. They have fed fine but again no high volume to really prove it. And other than for close range, I don't see any advantage when comparing to 110's with much better BC's. Bet they do barriers better though.

I've even used these loaded backwards under a 110 Sierra, for a 220 grain subsonic payload. Know what? Not too bad, spread is 1-2" at 28 yards, for whatever good it would do. Don't try this at home.... the case neck is too short to hold them both reliably and I hate to think of how bad things could get if the inner bullet got loose and fell into the case in a sideways-to-bore position.

Not something I'm doing anymore, having lucked out and gotten away with it before I knew better.

[ToxicSports]

Does anyone have Quickload? I was going to get it a few months ago but I decided to get engaged and move to farm country instead.

I'm interested in seeing what QuickLoad offers as suggestions for slower powders and heavier bullets in the 7.62x39 (bolt action) and a 20"bbl.

Bullet weights: 150, 168, 200, 210, 220 and 225 bullets. As for the powders anything slower than 1680.

I'm just turning gears and wanting to see what QL has to say about such a hypothetical venture with the small case capacity.

Thanks in advance!

Scott

[2bad4u2]

Scott,

I'm sure you've likely visited this site before but I'm going to post this link in case you haven't or the benefit of others who haven't. It's a great resource for subsonic 7.62x39mm information. http://members.shaw.ca/cronhelm/762Page.html

He posts on various web boards as Suputin or Suputin221 over on 300blktalk.com . He's a good guy and is very knowledgable and helpful.

[dick]

I am wondering why you are not running a .311 or .312 dia bullet instead of
.308. Do you have a .308 dia barrel.

[ToxicSports]

I am wondering why you are not running a .311 or .312 dia bullet instead of
.308. Do you have a .308 dia barrel.

Dick,

I have a .311 barrel. I'm just playing around with the .308 since they have a vast number of bullet designs. Well, that and I have a crapload of them for my 30-06 to play with.:smile:

BTW, the XTP hp's are .309 dia and I have tested a hand full of .32 acp (.312) bullets in similar tests.

I know they won't be as accurate as .310 bullets but for messing around experimenting, and not getting bored, while I'm off for the winter they are doing a great job.

I normally shoot Hornady 123gr SST (.310) for coyotes and small vermin but I have 20rnds of Barnes 108gr M/LE (.310) bullets loaded now for similar use. They really seem like they would do a good job.

I have also tinkered with Hornady 174gr fmjbt (.3105), Lapua D166 (.310) and Hornady SST 150gr (.311) as well as a few other .308 bullets for fun.

I've talked to a few guys who have .308x39 barrels and they all pretty much told me that one of the main reasons they went with the smaller bore was to dig into the vast selection of .308 bullets. All but one said they had decent results with .308 bullets out of their .310 barrels bolt action rifles but the one who had bad results also admitted that he was shooting an SKS before he had his current rifle built.

Scott

[Titleiiredneck]

Give me a powder type and I can run some #'s on quickload

[ToxicSports]

Titleiiredneck,

Thanks for the help!! Well, to be honest, the only two slow powders I have any knowledge about, and have, are Hodgdon Varget and IMR-4064. I use them for my 30-06 and they are more than likely WAY to slow.

There are a lot of powders on the burn rate charts between my 1680 and 4064 so I was wondering....what if?

I'm guessing that a lot of unburnt powder, not to impressive velocities, etc...

If possible could you run 2 powders?

1) Varget since it is the slowest I have

and

2) Hodgdon Benchmark since it's pretty much in the middle of my 1680 and 4064.

However, if you or any other member who may have a better suggestion than these two powders please feel free to substitute and suggest it.

Thanks again!

Scott

[Titleiiredneck]

I ran some number and it looks like 10x is a tad better, I will post the numbers shortly.

[Titleiiredneck]

I just ran benchmark and varget, all bullets are sierra matchkings and I take NO responsibility if you or someone else, hurts themself in any way or anyone else.:grin:

All these numbers are from quickload using 7.62 x 39 (.308) Russ. and groove caliber of 0.308 and a barrel leangth of 20.0, enjoy!

Hodgdon Benchmark

.308, 150, Sierra HPBT MatchK 2190
25.0 gr
2004 fps
36563 psi

.308, 168, Sierra HPBT MatchK 2200
23.0 gr
1865 fps
36356 psi

.308, 200, Sierra HP MatchK 2230
20.0 gr
1653fps
3620 psi

308, 210, Sierra HP MatchK 9240-2235
18.0 gr
1533 fps
33286 psi

.308, 220, Sierra HP MatchK 2240
17.0 gr
1428 fps
28351 psi


Hodgdon VARGET

.308, 220, Sierra HP MatchK 2240
20.0 gr
1554 fps
3518 psi


308, 210, Sierra HP MatchK 9240-2235
20.5 gr
1623 fps
3552 psi


.308, 200, Sierra HP MatchK 2230
22.0 gr
1690 fps
3859 psi


.308, 168, Sierra HPBT MatchK 2200
24.0 gr
1804 fps
4049 psi


.308, 150, Sierra HPBT MatchK 2190
27.0 gr
2008 fps
4523 psi

[ToxicSports]

Thank you sir! As I suspected the velocities were not too impressive with the low volume of the powder but it was something that made me wonder "what if"?


Thanks again!!

Scott

[ToxicSports]

OK gang,

I just velocity tested a few 210 VLD-H subsonic loads.

9.8gr of aa5744 flew at an average of velocity of 888fps for 5 shots. I'll get them on paper and shoot off sandbags ASAP to check stability and accuracy.

I just wish 5744 wouldn't leave as much unburnt powder as it does.:frown:

Scott

[Titleiiredneck]

Try aa#9 works great for me.

[ToxicSports]

Try aa#9 works great for me.

Thanks for the suggestion. I'll try to pick up a jug when I can.

Here are my 210 Berger VLD-H(unting) loads with 9.8gr of 5744 on paper. I know that you guys prefer testing at longer distances with more cartridges but I only test a few initial cartridges at 25yrds because 1) if the load tumbles at 25yards then it's not going to get any better at longer distances. 2) If it doesn't show any type of accuracy (for my limited ability) then it won't be any better at longer distances either.

I tested two 210 loads. They both were loaded with 9.8gr of 5744 but one group had magnum primers. I just wanted to see if there was any difference with the hotter primers. It seems that the Magnum primers were heading towards a more consistent velocity.

1st group:

Regular primers

Vel:825.6, 884.3, "error"
http://i39.photobucket.com/albums/e198/ToxicSports/762x39%20reloading/regularprimer5744.jpg

2nd group:

Magnum Primers

vel: 889.8, 846.0, 846.5
http://i39.photobucket.com/albums/e198/ToxicSports/762x39%20reloading/magnumprimer5744.jpg


It's pretty obvious that these long bullets are tumbling slightly so I may up the charge a little to see if I can settle it down a bit with a tad more velocity. I honestly don't know if the longer bullet will ever be able to be stable at subsonic velocities with my 1-9.5" twist so this test may be over.

Have any of you 300 shooters tested this combo in your rifles yet? I think your 1-8" twist would be perfect. At least they didn't keyhole...at this distance.:grin:


I also tested five 174gr FMJBT (.3105dia) over 9.8gr of 4759

Vel:890.3, 921.4, 893.4, 893.8, "error"
http://i39.photobucket.com/albums/e198/ToxicSports/762x39%20reloading/174gr4759.jpg

This has some good potential and I will load some up with 5744 as well to test.


Scott

[Titleiiredneck]

Cannot find them locally so I stick with hornady and sierra and sometimes some speer for case forming. Your 1~9.5 twist should be good for up to 210 gr but the oal of the bullet may be playing against you. Have you confirmed the twist using a cleaning rod?

[ToxicSports]

Your 1~9.5 twist should be good for up to 210 gr but the oal of the bullet may be playing against you. Have you confirmed the twist using a cleaning rod?

Yes I have confirmed the twist in such a way. As much as I would have loved to see these work I agree that the OAL of the bullet is just too much for this rifle. Then again, experimenting and finding what and what doesn't work is all the fun.

I'll stick with my Lapua D166 and Hornady 220RN for my 200gr+ x39 bullets for future tests.

The way the Bergers acted remind me of shooting the Aguila SSS out of my CZ rifles...they are fairly accurate and just stable enough to not tumble out to medium (50ish yrds) distances. I doubt I'm going to waste these Bergers at 50yrds, or on Groundhogs, but I would imagine that vermin up to Coyote size would be easily removed from the farm if I needed to use them in a pinch.

Now, on to another experiment....

Scott