Tried Hawk Bullets?

[Bigfoot]

Has anybody tried Hawk Bullets, especially the 200 grain RN with the thin .025 jacket. http://www.hawkbullets.com/Pricelist.htm Supposedly they use very soft pure copper jackets. These bullets don't have a good reputation among hunters because they tend to shed their jackets but I doubt that that would be a problem at these low velocities. If they need even more expansion maybe get one of those hollowpoint cutters and try cutting a HP into them.

[Bigfoot]

While I'm at it here's another custom bullet maker. http://www.wildcatbullets.homestead.com/BulletPrices.html Richard Graves is incredible, his specialty is extremely high BC bullets for long range hunting. He also makes heavy for caliber ULD RBBTHP bullets with the thin J-4 jackets. J-4s are what Berger uses and they are thinner than Sierras jackets. Among the long distance hunting crowd this guy has a great reputation for quality, and also his willingness to make anything you can dream up. I've talked to him myself. I'm thinking he might give you guys a larger HP in order to realibly start expansion at low velocities. His latest project is developing a special rebated boatail punches for his jackets, this will allow him to also bond these RBBT ULDs for hunting at high velocities.

He's actually a Canadian farmer with mad bullet making skills. His internet skills on the other hand suck so cut him a break with his site. :grin:

[Bigfoot]

I emailed Richard and here's how it went.

.................................................. .................................................. ....
Hello Richard

I just typed out a post for the 300 Whisper forum where I reccomended your work. They mostly use 240 SMKs at close to subsonic velocities and depend on them tumbling for effect, sometimes they don't and of course they pencil through. What I think they need is a high BC, heavy for caliber, thin jacket bullet like your 210 or 225 gr RBBT, but possibly with a larger HP like Berger does with thier J-4 varmint bullets. Can you do this, or what else would you recommend? This one isn't for me but I watch just about everybodys rifle forums to see what they are up to.

Bigfoot

.................................................. ..................................................

Hi Darrel,
I would be more than happy to build some bullets with the open meplat for
you,In fact I will try to do them tomorrow.How open of a meplat do you want
?????I have talked with my jacketmaker and he has most of my jackets
drawn,he is still waiting on a trim punch and I will have 30 cals up to 300
grns.

Get back to me asap on the opening size and I will see what I can get done
on a j-4 jacket,I am thinking225 grn????? We will see

Have a good nite
Richard Graves/Wildcat Bullets

.................................................. .................................................

I told you this guy is awsome. He will often make bullets up and give them away free for testing, if they don't perform like the shooter wants he will change the jacket thickness and mail some more out to try again. FOR FREE. :eek:

So, what do you guys need? 300 grain bullets? :grin:

Think about the HP/meplat size and let me know, or email him and talk to him yourself.

[Bigfoot]

Richard emailed me this morning.

.................................................. .......................................

Good morning Darrel,

you buggers have me all horned up to get a whisper now,I have been thing
about this for some time and this is not helping to quench the fire!!!!! LOL
I ran over this am and made cores for a 220 grn rbbt uld,oxidized them and
in a few hours will make a handful of bullets for some talented individual
to shoot.Any ideas on who they should be sent to ??????
thanks for your interest

Richard Graves/Wildcat Bullets.
Is there a 7mm whisper,I have 200 grn rbbt uld bullets in 7mm that would
work well I think!!!!

.................................................. ..................................................

Who wants to test these? I'd suggest emailing Richard and including your mailing address.

[Artful]

Sounds interesting - What we need is to standardize a test medium and do terminal performance testing like this guy...

http://www.theboxotruth.com/

[pmc]

Bigfoot, I am in. I have been e-mailing Richard about this very application.

Pmc

[GunGeek]

I've also been exchanging e-mails with Richard about the possibility of a soft point round nose rebated boat tail (Say that 5 times fast) for 300Whisper.He is sending me some of his megahollowpoint bullets to try out. We are in teh process of discussing the terminal ballistics I am after for coyotes to see if he thinks the RNSPRBBT is the way. He said if there is enough interest in such a bullet design, he would by the die required to make them.
More coming,
John

[Murmur]

It's neat to hear that a bullet manufacturer is listening to needs for the subsonic users. To end up with the desired results what we need is for an methodical, eperienced whisper shooter to test & log results with these bullets.
Does anybody fit this bill do this testing and R&D justice? There's no point in wasting a manufacturers precious time - lets do this right!

[pmc]

I just got through with some e-mails from Richard also and have some of the mega-hollows inbound also. I typically use wet phone books for bullet tests because they are repatable and inexpensive. I'll post results when they come in. I do like the idea of some 240's that expand or possibly some heavy frangibles when he gets them built.

Pmc

[Bulletsmith]

Just wanted to say hi,this is Richard.I am very excited to be invited to play!!
I have had a few thoughts promted by some individuals that show insight into making a bullet that will expand .There are several tricks,jacket serrators,hollow point punches to make a open meplat even more massive,mouth serrators that basically have a x punch that scores the mouth,so it peels back and finally,fragible cores made from lead shot.If we work together I am sure that it will be possible to get exactly what is needed. I think,please correct me if I am sucking slough water,but a round nose is possibly not the best choice for yotes, a high bc bullet with a rebated boattail that will come apart and stay inside.I can buld one for the higher velocity rounds and I think with a little input from you shooters it can be done in this application as well.However I have been wrong before
I look forward to the challenge
good shooting
Bulletsmith

[pmc]

Richard, good to see you post over here. I am liking the idea of a coyote killer. With this round the higher the BC the better as it starts out so slow. I am willing to do the tests on whatever you work up.

Pmc

[Murmur]

Yes it's good to have you on board Richard! All my whisper shooting to date had been with 240gr Matchkings at subsonic speeds so would love to get my hands on some similar weight bullets that EXPAND at that speed. That would simply be the ducks nuts and would get an order of 500 bullets straight away.
Thanks for taking up the challenge PMC - I will eagerly await results of your trials. Its good to see someone with your experience and back to basics testing to try these things out.

[Quarterbore]

Just wanted to say hi,this is Richard.I am very excited to be invited to play!!

<snip>

Bulletsmith

:welcome:

It is great to see you here! Bullets that perform well with the 300 Whisper would also be useful for the single shot pistols like the T/C Contender in 30/30 or even 7.62x39 with a .308 bore...

[Bulletsmith]

could any of you guys give some ideas of velocity expected at extended ranges with this cartridge??? This will help to decide on the meplat opening, the tighter the better as far as bc is concerned,but a tight meplat is not the thing you want for expansion.
What actions are most of you using to build these rifles on,what barrel length??? Sorry forall the questions,but the more and better I know,the better grasp I will get for whats needed.
Thank-you all for the warm welcome
Bulletsmith

[pmc]

Richard here is what I am shooting. Rem 700 with an 18" Barrel. You will find quite a few guys on here with AR-15's in various lengths.

My data for the 240 gr SMK is as follows.
Muzzle Velocity - 1060 fps
100 yard Velocity (calculated) - 1027 fps
200 yard Velocity (calculated) - 998 fps

Pmc

[Murmur]

I'm shooting a Thompson Contender carbine with 18 1/2" 1-8 twist barrel so I can use the heavy 240gr MK at 1050 fps from my barrel. Most whisper users have 1-8 twist barrels to utlilise the heaviest bullets possible for as much energy transfer as possible at subsonic speeds. There are some whisper users with a slower 1-10 twist rate that will only stabilise 220gr Roudnose bullets at subsonic speeds.
BC at these speeds is really erelevent.........what we need is expansion....not the pencil stab wounds that we get with bullets not expanding at subsonic speeds.

[Bulletsmith]

Thanks guys,thats the info I was looking for.Now when you say we need expansion,are you saying you want a nice mushroom,or total blowup into lead dust and jacket fragments,there is a huge differance between the two from my perspective. Now,a real stupid question, is the 200 yd distance about tops or are you looking @300.400 etc where the velocity gets even slower.A bullet that will expand @950 fps may have some isssue's expanding @500 fps. Remember I know nothing of this cartridge and you fine fine folks will have to kinda hold my hand for a bit ,untill I get my legs under me LOL
thanks
Bulletsmith

[pmc]

Personally I am not looking for a 300 or 400 yard shot on game. I limit my shots to 100 yds or less, but part of that is because I live in Middle TN. Lots of woodlots & small fields. I really have to work to get a shot longer than 200 yards.

As far as expansion a nice mushroom would do nicely for deer loads. For coyotes loads I am thinking a frangible bullet would be great.

Pmc

[Murmur]

For me hunting ranges can range from 25yds all the way out to 200yds where I draw the line at using sub loads on game. Once past 100yds bullet drop is a real issue so a range finder is a must!
A bullet that would still give a nice Mushroom at 200yds would be excellent.

I still can't believe no body else is posting here for recommendations to give richard some help on bullet design!!!! Come on someone is here trying to help..
I'm sure plenty of people have read these posts!

[Bulletsmith]

PMC
I shipped the bullets today.I would think about 12 working days BUT sometimes I think canada post uses a horse and a fat clydsdale at that!!!!!! This really doesn't make sense to me,but to deliver to FortShaw Montana usually takes 18 days,I can drive there in 10 hours!!! I can ship to texas faster. Thanks for the info and imput on the bullets,
Bulletsmith

[Bulletsmith]

I think the first step is have patrick shoot these into the same media and test for expansion.If it what is wanted,and I would like as many opinions as possible after he puts pics up,great,then either go with a tapered jacket where the shank section is heavier for a mushroom,or start looking at a hollow punch/ jacket seraterto make it more fragile. I would really like to do it right the first time but I will be the first to admit that I have never had to play with velocities this low,so again,this is a new field and the worst part is I don't have a whisper to do the trials with...... YET!!!!! Are there any opinions on a ssk barrel or bull berry on a encore frame??????
thanks
Bulletsmith

[Bigfoot]

Richard

There is subsonic load data for a .308 on this board.
7.62x39 will work also although the bore is a couple thousands larger.

Oh, and there is a 7mm Whisper also. http://www.300whisper.com/sskwhisper.html

Stay warm up there,
Bigfoot

[pmc]

Bulletsmith, I would look at SSK. JD Jones is the designer of the Whisper and SSK is his company. If anybody knows the round he does.

I will be looking for the bullets. When they get here I'll take measurements, detail my load workup and document the results.

You may want to look over at Silencertests.com also. I was just directed to their site the other day and some of those guys are experimenting with subsonic .308.

Pmc

[GunGeek]

Thanks guys,thats the info I was looking for.Now when you say we need expansion,are you saying you want a nice mushroom,or total blowup into lead dust and jacket fragments,there is a huge differance between the two from my perspective. Now,a real stupid question, is the 200 yd distance about tops or are you looking @300.400 etc where the velocity gets even slower.A bullet that will expand @950 fps may have some isssue's expanding @500 fps. Remember I know nothing of this cartridge and you fine fine folks will have to kinda hold my hand for a bit ,untill I get my legs under me LOL
thanks
Bulletsmith

Bulletsmith, It's great to have someone really looking at our market seriously. I personally am looking for expansion (mushrooming) while maintaining bullet integrity. 100% weight retension to deliver the energy into a coyote/ferrell dog/ferrel hog/bobcat as needed. As for nose design, The only drawback I could think of with a big ol honkin hollowpoint would be many of us shoot these in an AR-15 rebarrelled for 300whisper. The OAL of a loaded round comes very close to the .223 and one way to make brass is to shorten and neck down .223 so it is a natural fit.

The other reason I asked about you coming up with a RNSP instead of HP was that I'd like to see just how heavy a bullet you could come up with. I know I'd like to see something up closer to 300Gr and imagine others may want that as well. Terminal ballistics has everything to do with energy and momentum delivered to teh target so since we have a speed limit of 1050fps, the only way to get more energy is to fling more poo with each shot.

200yds is the farthest I would shoot with the 300whisper. Right now I'm using a .308 but with the influx of uptight urbanites into the country there are more complaints about the noise and shooting so I'm delving into 300whisper to keep the peace, in more ways than one.

Anyway, welcome to the boards and thanks for the attention you're giving our little community. Once you settle on a reliable design, I can see an order for 500 or 1000 from me.
Thanks again,
John

[aaronraad]

If someone has the capacity to start working with Richard just go for it. Nothing worse than waiting for 12 to 24 months for everything to be right and meet mil-spec, we'd all go broke and nothing would be achieved. Get your wet (not frozen you goats) phone books set-up at 100, 50 and 25 yards. Do the comparision against say the standard 220 gn Hornady and 240 Sierra MK. If you can't see the improvement over Richard's deisgn easily in the phone books, scrap it and start again.

Ricahard, from what I understand the Sierra 240 MK does it's work by spinning quickly out of the barrel and then tumbling when hitting the object and therefore creating a cutting wound through the object like a blade. So yes you want something that moves through the air like a tuna in water. You have two options though, follow the Sierra concept of cutting like a knife or collapsing expending all your energy through as large an area as possible. If you could get the jacket of a ULD to collapse in the middle at close range and release shot pellets throughout, thats where I'd be starting. If the jacket didn't collapse fully, or even partially, at the middle to longer ranges you would still get the blade effect.

If and when things look good then take the idea to someone like Blackhills or whoever over there in the US that doesn't mind producing custom bullet loaded ammuntion with the idea. Get them to produce some factory rounds with your cracker bulles. Send some to SKK, get their backing and do an article in a commercial firearms magazine telling everyone how you've revolutionised the sub-sonic cartridge industry with your bullets etc etc etc. Before you know it your bitchin' about how it costs you $700 a tyre for your Diablo and you can't get decent fuel at your local gas station.

At least I entertain myself...where is my Lotto ticket? Just remeber, don't get greedy (okay just a little), don't get jealous (okay just a tad), try and share a little, if someone 'steals' your idea and makes a buck out of it, at least it got further than a net forum.

[Bulletsmith]

well,after a terrible long wait,the splined punches are finally made and shipped. I had no idea they would take this long!!!!!!!!Jacket's have been serreated and bullets will be produced this week. Weight estimations will be right at 225 grns to start with. They will be a rebated boattail 6 ogive with a double hollow point.The "double hollow point" means not only is the meplat opened up but there is a massive hollow point put in the lead core as well.

Who wants to try some?????

thanks for every ones patience,tooling takes time
Bulletsmith

[Dang]

Bulletsmith check your email. I would like to try some of the expanding bullets.

Thanks

DanG

[interceptor]

How about some prices?

[Bulletsmith]

Hi all
I was supposed to add a full length jacket serreator die to the existing tooling,but it seems it has been backordered.This will, according to the manufacture, be another 30 days. How I hate to wait,but I believe things should be done right the first time.The jackets I have now only have the meplat serreated. Prices will vary depending on weight,jacket style etc.A ball park guess will be $50.00/100.This will depend on how well everthing flows thru the dies,the time thing ya know!!!!
Another thought will be aluminum tips,these are being built into 338 bullets in a week or so.In a subsonic,they could very well act as a wedge and induce massive fragmentation in even a uld design.Time will tell. It will increase oal.

[pug]

Bulletsmith sounds like you are moving right along and I would like to put my order in for massive expansion without fragmentation if I could please :). I like the sound of your original design and actually used a countersink bit to put a "double hollowpoint" in subsonic bullets but could never figure out a way to serrate the jacket evenly. Can you vary the length and depth of serration at all or is it preset?

[Bulletsmith]

Hi Pug,
I have to go by the manufacture's description as I have not yet seen a die. The jackets that I have now,are the ogive serration design.
The ogive serration die can be adjusted for both length of cut and depth.The full length serrator can be adjusted for depth but not length.As it's name suggests, she's all the way or nothing.
I believe what is needed for your needs perhaps will be a tapered jacket,with a full length serration.With the heavy shank section,the bullet should expand about 2x diameter untill it hits the heavy part of the jacket, at which point expansion should be over.This is in therory. The real world will be test media and actual testing on flesh and bone.

[lovdasnow]

wow, can't wait to see the results with this test, exciting! good to see you over here richard. I wonder what's in Fort Shaw, besides the one and only mr allen! :welcome:

have heard nothing but good about this guy, and sure am glad you're working on this, thanks!

[pug]

I was thinking back on Artful's post about standardizing test media and since ballistic gel is still high as the devil I thought I would mention the bullet trap I use. About $20 bucks to build and it is replenishable and works fairly well as long as you don't miss to many times :). Make a 3/8" thick plywood platform 2' by 3'. On this mount two 1' by 2' 3/8" wood runners about 5 1/2" apart using steel shelving brackets. Place a leaf trashbag down between the runners and then fold it back down around the outside of the runners. Badsically now you have a wood frame with a thin plastic liner. Insert six paper towel rolls into the frame standing them on end and then fill with water. You will get about 30" of media. You fire length wise at the frame through the liner. It is also a good idea to put poles on all four corners so you can align yourself with the frame. Gives about a 5" by 11" firing window and doesn't leak as bad as you would think. The recovered bullets don't seem to care whether you use Brawny or Bounty. Also the trash bags with the carry straps all the way around the rim work best as they provide reinforement when you add the water.

It was interesting to see a 1600 fps whisper bullet penetrate 26" and expand over 2x at 50 yds yet a 955 fps bullet of the same design completely went through the test box and almost through the 1/2" backstop that I happen to put up. Its expansion was about 1.7x but probably caused most by striking the backstop board.

[THE DOCTOR]

OK so what happened to all the momentum of this thread and testing and results and such. I really like the sound of serrated jackets and massive expansion or fragmentation either one I am not picky.

Anyone test these bullets were the results pro or back to the drawing board?

Thanks

DOC

[m21black]

I'm a whisper shooter who has a couple of thousand 240 SMK's. No there not for sale but reading this thread has me interested in a heavy bullet that will expend as opposed to doing the yawl thing. If you guys figure out something that shoots well and expands count me in... I have a herd of deer to test them on...

[gary0529]

Throw my name in the hat for wanting to try and buy some of the "new" creations.
Either the heavy, i.e. 300 gr. or the serrated tip hollow points in 240 gr sounds peachy and I too have an ever expanding herd of whitetails that needs culling.

I'll keep my eye on this thread.
Thanks,

Gary

[pug]

I know heavy sounds good but in order for a hollow point to work it has to go straight in and my 1:8 at subsonic velocities doesn't like bullets over 200 grains. If you are shooting 100 yards or less this type broad nose hollow point has shown some promise and I have located some similar 180 gr bullets that have a serrated jacket and just need to be hollow pointed. Changing jobs, losing the use of a big lathe and finishing up a lot of little projects has put a lot of the testing on the back burner but I will let you know if anything really useful shows itself.

[cav_scout_tj]

So did we find some interesting bullets or not? Looks like things just petered out. I was getting excited about the Aluminum tips and stuff.

I'd be happy to test here in Central TX where the weather is always good for shootin'. My whisper barrel is on the way, but downloaded 308 win can easily duplicate velocity.

[HUNTER2]

This was added to another subject earlier. Wildcat Bullets has been sold. The new owners contacted me this week and said they would be up and running this summer and hopefully they would have the 300 whisper bullet going by then....We can hope!!!!

[Garrett]

I hadn't seen this thread before, but like others here, I'm very interested. Just last night I was thinking that I'd seen some ads from EBR a while back about their subsonic 7.62x39 ("Jackhammer" I think). And I want to say that they featured a bullet that expanded at subsonic velocities.

I had been wondering if these were still being made, and thinking about pulling some bullets for use in the .300 Whisper.

Of course, they would either be slightly oversized for the bore, or would have to be swedged to .308".

[fpjeepy05]

What happen?
I'm still interested in some 300 grain deer killers. I just wish someone knew if these were going to become available soon because I'm about to build another gun and I would like to order the barrel in a 1:7" twist to make sure I can stabilize those 300grs, but if those are not going to be coming available then I'd rather have the 1:8" to insure the tumbling affect of the 240smk's. What is everyone's opinion?

[robrob]

Has anyone tried opening up the hollow point on the SMK?

[Alleycat]

Has anyone tried opening up the hollow point on the SMK?

http://www.quarterbore.net/forums/showthread.php?t=2238