My 300/221 acuraccy needs to be better

[RobRat]

I put together two 300/221 rifles (1:8 twist McGowan barrels, chambered by the same 'smith with the same reamer) and got a YHM-762 QD can and mounts for both. The AR was a challenge to get to cycle properly, but since lightening the buffer (rifle buffer/A2 stock), and switching to AA1680 powder, the thing cycles like a sewing machine.

The problem is now accuracy. In the AR, I've basicly duplicated the 300 Blackout load - 220gr SMK, 11.2gr AA1680, 2.089" OAL. I'm using Fed 205's in the Savage, CCI 41's in the AR. Today I tried 11.2, 11.3, and 11.4gr. I shot 10 shots each @ 100, suppressed. The 11.2 gr load was 3" wide, x 4" high, shotgun pattern. The 11.3 load was 2" wide x 5" high mostly in a vertical line, and the 11.4 load was the best at 2" x 2" most everything in a 1-1/2" group, but about 4 of these were going supersonic.

The Savage bolt rifle isn't doing much better with subs, but with 110-125 supers, is MOA @100. (I'm going to do some stock and trigger work on this one yet)

I've read on the 'net, that with subs, you don't want to put the bullet into the lands- -I assume due to pressure.

Is vertical that common with subs?

My next steps:

Neck size only (I know I can do this with the Savage, I'll have to test a few with the AR before loading a bunch), and see if that helps.

Work on the 11.2 load - I'm going to try a couple different seating depths, and see if that does anything. I'm thinking the reduced case volume might help?

Also going to try some magnum primers, to see if I can get better ignition.

Am I going in the right drection? What else can I try?

[N310toN170]

Neck tension/ thickness should be a major consideration.

Try measuring a few for consistency and if at all possible try using .221 brass, or at the very least a batch of brass (.223) of the same manufacturer and lot.

I'm assuming that this brass has already been fire formed and is not a first time run.

[rsilvers]

I recommend 2.120 OAL now.

[LouBoyd]

That much vertical strining is most likely to be from velocity variations, I'd suggest you shoot over a chronograph and record the velocity of each shot and it's point of impact at e target.

Velocity variations can come from several sources, but in all cases a slow bullet (of equal weight) has received less energy as it passes the muzzle.
Reasons bullet can have less energy are:
1. less powder charge - weigh each charge precisely until you find the problem.
2 poor ignition. If time it takes for the powder to burn varies with time the bulet can
recieve a variable amount of energy. Slow powders and low peak pressures usuallly make that worse.
3. engraving force. High engraving force will raise chamber pressure and may actually give higher velocity. It can go either way, but variable engraving force comes from varying seating depth. Engraving foces are very sensitive to seating depth when the bullet is near (toching +/-) the lands. Slow powders can make the time to engrave bullets more variable.
4. blow by. if the bullet is seated away from the lands a significant amount of propellant may go around the bullet due to clearances in the neck and throat and out the bore before the bullet moves enough to seal. That can vary from shot to shot depending on neck tension, neck thickness, and of course seating depth variations. Powder burn rate variations can make shot to shot blow by variabilty worse.

5. some bullets my sit on the lands without providing a good seal. It's similar to 3 but for a different reason As a quick test drop one of the bullets (not cartridges) into the bore from the chamber then blow air into the chamber gently. You can use a piece of rubber tubing which fits the chamber or remove the barrel from the rifle. If the chamber isn't sealed by the bullet just sitting into the lands the throat is mismatched to the bullet your using. This means the bullet has to actually start engraving before the bore seals and more propellent is likley to blow by.
6. variable bore friction. If the barrel is copper or powder fouling the shot to shot friction can vary and produce vertical stringing. For short barrels I'd expect that to be less likely than 1-5.

All of the above are more critical to subsonics than to typical supersonic cartridges.
Bulet drop is always D=1/2 G* t^2 where D is drop in feet, G is the acceleration of gravity
which is 32 feet/(second^2) and t is the time of flight in seconds.

If a chronograph does not show velocity varation possible problems inclued something loose or bullet instability. Pointing error could be anything loose. Action, barrel, scope, scope base, reticle, etc. I bought a 223 AR-15 upper on Gunbroker once which produced 4" stringing at 100 yards!. Turned out the barrel nut was barely finger tight. It couln't have simply come loose with the gas tube in place. It shot fine after the barrel nut was properly torqued.

If your actual muzzle velocities are over 1050 fps the problem could also be related to bullet stability though that usually produces random point of impact variations. I'd suggest keeping your loads at 1000 to 1025 FPS at least until you find the cause of the stringing problem. Nothing magic happens at exactly the speed of sound. The transonic region where bulelts have c reduced stability is 200 ( 1050 to 1250) to 300 (1000 to 1300) fps wide.

Trying to diagnose subsonic loads without a chronograph is just asking for frustration.

[snipecatcher]

To the OP:
Can you put up a picture of some of your targets? I'm interested to see if the bullet holes are round or if they are slightly oblong.
-Dan

[Hoser]

I agree with Lou. Put a bunch of ammo over a chrono.

Sort your brass. Go with one flavor as different interior volumes and neck tensions will cause velocities to be all over.

Also, try some different powders. Start with Vhit N110.

[RobRat]

Thanks for the detailed answers, lots of things to think about!

I have a chrono, but lately my range time has been limited. It seems that every time I pull my chrono out, then 5 other shooters show up (which burns more time explaining that yes, suppressors are in fact legal :rolleyes: and no, I don't work for the government or military as an assasin, followed by - "I got to get me one of those!, How do you get one? $600 for the suppressor + $200 to the BATF, fingerprints to the FBI...oh, ok) if I don't bring it, I have the range to myself for a day. I'll need to take a day and do it.

I made my 300/221 brass out of LC brass, but as I look at them, it's of various years - 03, 06, 07. I'll weigh cases and sort. I've loaded this brass 4x so it's well formed by now. Neck tension seems consitent when seating the bullets, "normal" to othe cals I've loaded as far as I can tell with my hand on the press lever. I also put a light crimp on with a custom Lee Factory Crimp die.

I was testing loads on my 30BR bench gun the same day, and shooting moa and less the whole session with it, so I'm confident it isn't totally me.

Just checked the rings, they're tight. The suppressor mount seems perfectly centered (my 'smith is a very fussy machinist).

Some Questions/comments:

rsilvers: Why increase to 2.120"?

snipecatcher: I just realized that I didn't bring home my last set of targets from the AR session (I left the range thinking "what did I forget?"), but I do have some targets from testing a couple loads from the Savage. I might say there is a hint of "off center" in the holes- -not much, but maybe a little. Hmm. Definetly something to investigate further. I'll see if I can get it on paper out at 200 and see what they look like there. I Just checked the barrel with a rod and bore brush, and the twist is right on 1 in 8".

[jimpa]

I had a nice sub load shooting sub moa at 100 yds,,, pushed the bullet out and just off the lands and it opened up to 3 and 4 inches.
I am thinking that the smaller case volume with the deeper bullets is the reason.

[RobRat]

I had the 'smith take a piece of left over barrel, and had him run the reamer in to 1/2 shoulder, so I would have a comparator of sorts. I had forgotten about this piece until now.

When I drop a 220 SMK into the comparator, it seals very well. Its like a cork, I can't blow anything past it.

The bullet also goes in very deep. Seating depth for "touching the lands" is 2.270". I'm seating to 2.089" = a 0.181" jump to the lands.

Should I try a 2.240 depth = 0.030" jump? This would still barely fit a AR mag, but no problem in the Savage, as its a single shot. The downside is that my case volume would increase- -but I'm willing to try anything at this point.

[jimpa]

My 240 SMK are seated to 2.196". I shoot a bolt gun.

[Trikstr]

Fired 2 fouling shots then a 5 shot group. First 3 shots went into 1/2", next two were 3/4" and 2" higher.
Velocities
1-1033 fps
2-1030
3-1033
4-1043
5-1049
When I got home I weighed cases and found that three weighed less than the other 2. I think it was only by about a half a grain. I'd have to check my notes.
You need to be careful when shortening seating depth. Pressure and velocities rise quite a bit.
So far I've seen the smallest Extreme spreads and Standard deviations with AA 5744. IMR 4227 was pretty good also.

[Trikstr]

Checked notes this AM.
SSK upper 16.25" barrel gas port on Lo press. setting
220 grn Sierra Matchking
10 grn AA 5744 starting load from Western Powders
Rem 7 1/2 primer/ WP used WSR
OAL 2.100"
3- cases weighed 84 grns
2- cases weighed 83.5
I'll have to test further by weighing cases and loading to diff. weights and check vel. & group placement on target.

[LouBoyd]

Brass weight is an indicator of case capacity, but since brass has a specific density of about 8.5 1/2 grain case differece is only equicvalent to 0.06 grains difference in case capacity.

From the above data I'd suggest dropping the loads to get under 1025 fps and weigh each load carefully. When I'm trying for precision loads in small cases I weigh each charged to +/- 0.02 grains on a lab scale. It's a bit tedious but the results are worth it. Consider that subsonics are 1/3 the speed of typical bechnrest bulelts so they have 9 times the drop and vertical stringing for the same percent velocty variation. . Also subsonics have to deal with transonic stability issues. You have to use benchrest techniques loading subsonic ammo if you want to achieve the accuray at 100 yards of typical commerical supersoinic ammo, like a 223.

Bullet and brass weight isn't as criical as charge weight by a factor of at least five, but I sort brass and bullets to 0.1 grain. Better bullet manufacturers and some brass manufacturers have already done that.

Don't think that it's easy to get good accuracy in subsonics just because they're small and slow. It's just the opposite.

[rsilvers]

If you are making bolt gun only ammo or AR ammo where you will just put a few rounds into a mag, sure - seat to 2.26 (for a BLACKOUT chamber only).

[LouBoyd]

If you are making bolt gun only ammo or AR ammo where you will just put a few rounds into a mag, sure - seat to 2.26 (for a BLACKOUT chamber only).

Which specific bullet is your 2.26" recommendation for? Are you assuming 220 Sierra Matchkings? If not, what? Do you have a recommendation for seating the 240 SMKs in a 300 BLK case usd in a Rem SA action with the AAC 700 barrel?

[rsilvers]

I meant for the Sierra 220. The 240 should be the same though.

[L1A1Rocker]

RobRat, did you ever get your accuracy issue worked out?