Howcome .25 left out? ( The 25/308 or 25 Souper )

[K9 Handler]

I have a 25 WSSM Browning. Nice round, but kind of overkill in my NE hardwoods where ranges are short. Too much power (if there is such a thing!)

I'm a long-time .308 shooter (one of Uncle Sam's boys) and I've recently started shooting a 7mm-08, but that begs the question: How come a .25 caliber bullet in a .308 case never took off commercially?

I mean, you have a 7mm and a .243 in the .308 case, and of course the 25 in the 30-06 case, by why not ever the .25 in the short-action brass?

Any guesses out there?

[Quarterbore]

I have looked at the 257 Souper (I think that is the correct spelling?) quite a bit and my personal oppinion is that because the 257/308 would all right between the 250 Savage and teh 257 Roberts in performance there just was never a big marketing reason to do it.

I like the wildcat as like you said it is a true short action cartridge and with the heavier brass 308 casings we could load to a little more pressure then what the 300 Savage or 7x57 Mauser cases can handle so a hot loaded 257/308 might be pretty darned close to 257 Roberts perfomance even comparing to the 257 Roberts +p loads!

Where I would love to see this cartridge would be in a rifle like the Remington Model 7 youth gun. A 257/308 in that small rifle would be great for smaller hunters and with the 257 bullets it would make a great varmint/deer rifle so that a smaller hunter could get out and do some varmint hunting in the summer with the same rifle they would use in the fall.

My oldest is 8 now and she can hunt in four more years. I have been using a 243 for deer myself the past few years but I am also a pretty decent shot. I need to get out and do more varmint hunting the next couple summers shooting my little 55-gr Nosler BTs and shoot out the barrel... this way I can rebarel in 257/308 and set it up for my daughter when she is old enough to hunt with me!

[Greywuuf]

I nearly Begged people for info on the 25 souper, as I wanted to put that barrel on my FAL. I never got a single response. it's like no one has ever shot one. I ended up putting a 358 win barrel on the FAL, but I have enough of them around I might still try the 25 some time soon. I shoot a 257 mag in a contender and make a few swaged bullets in .257, so I figure I should have one in a rifle as well.

[Carpe Diem]

The .250 AI is a ballistic twin to the .25 Souper, for all practical purposes at least. While it is a fine cartridge, it didn't set the world on fire as a wildcat like the .243-08 did. The factories look at shooting trends and will adopt popular wildcats (.22-250, .225, .243, .244, .25-06, .260, 7-08, .338-06....). If the .25 WSSM is too much cartridge, why not load it down?

I assume that Greywuuf shoots a .256 Magnum in his Contender, rather than a .257 Weatherby..... :rolleyes:

[Quarterbore]

Well, I have a 243 that I am using for deer and varmints... not that I get to shoot as many chucks in the summer anymore... but when I burn out that barrel shooting my little 55-gr Nosler BTs at 4000-fps I may well do a 257/308 wildcat next. Hell, I might just do real wild and do a 257 Souper improved :D

Problem is my little 243 still shoots great and with three small kids and a busy work life it may take me years to burn out that barrel that everybody told me I would fry shooting these little atom bombs out of my 243!

[Carpe Diem]

My M77VT in .243 likes the little 55 BTips too, the best of any bullet I've tried - a very picky rifle. 4050 fps is not max but is highly accurate and shoots flatter than any .224-caliber varmint hunting load. My throat is showing signs of wear but the rifle still shoots well. I'll probably sell the rifle before I get around to re-barreling it. The stock is the best thing about this rifle IMO - my M700s are less finicky.

Let's see:
2 ea - .25-20 BN
1 ea - .25-35
1 ea - .25 Bullberry
1 ea - .250/3000
1 ea - .25-06
2 ea - .257 Weatherby

Yep, that's a good start on quarterbore cartridges. :nanabang:

[Quarterbore]

Yea, back in the old days I used to laugh at the varmint shooters with their 22/250 or even 243 as I was shooting the 25-06 but when Nosler came out with that little 55-gr bullet for the 243 it make the 243 into the ultimate long range varming round....

I am using a Rem 700 VLS that I converted to a PSS DM clone through the addition of a H-S Precision DM PSS stock and floor plate assembly. I did just a little fitting to the BDL feed lips for the DM mags but I believe my loads were giving me about 4100 FPS out of the 26-inch barrel with a group that is about 0.75 inches at 100-yards. It makes my "little" 243 combined with the insane 8-40x56 scope a quite capable 500-yard varmint rifle.

Hell, it was after I bough this rifle that I finally decided to sell my 25-06 but frankly selling the 25-06 was a huge mistake and one of very few guns I have sold over the years that I regret every time I think about it.

[DuaneinND]

If you go to my web page and look at the data for the 257DGR, you will find that a 308 based 25 is really closer to a 257AI, but is an honest short action cartridge.

www.duansguns.com

[Alan in GA]

http://outcast.homeunix.org/uploads/Rug250AI.jpg
.
another way to look at it: what with all the .308 case cartridges being SO SUCCESSFUL,,another in .25 WOULD have been a good idea! I've long given up on finding one of the 'big' companys offering a .25-08. The biggest reason for this great round is,,the GREAT case. .308 cases are SO COMMON, and any of us 25 caliber riflemen KNOW it's better than the Winchester brass being often available in .250 Savage. The Winchester brass is UNDERSIZE, and I have not taken the time to see if the web/sidewall area is thinner or not[?].
So just build your own and don't wait for a factory round.
By the way,,,when one wheel manufacturer made a mag wheel that SOLD LIKE HOTCAKES,,,they made more similar,,and OTHER manufacturers COPIED the first wheel as close as possible for there own [hopefully]hot selling mag wheel design. Sooooo, when the .243, .260, 7-08, .308, 338 Federal, .358 [ok, a GREAT round,,but hardly succesful!], are all selling like WOWSERS,,wouldn't some manufacturer think the .25 on a .308 case MIGHT SELL on the coattails of these other great rounds?? Come up with whatever attention catching name they want,,just make a 25 bore on the Excellent .308 case!
The 25 Whizbang,,the .257 Rem/Win, The .258 Rem/Win, the .25-08, the,,,WHATEVER. The .25 ain't dead,,and the 25 WSSM has it's own problems [throat errosion, case neck thickness allowing blowby to body area, etc].
ok,,the caffiene is waining down,,,I'll be ok.
First post here on 'QuarterBore'.
Didn't know you guys were here.
Alan in GA.
.
.
making do with:
Ruger 77 Mark II in .250 Ackley Improved
Ruger 77R in .250 Savage [factory]
Ruger 77R in .250 Savage [had to have another when it showed up-actually the two 77Rs are my sons,,,,but I get to keep them in MY safe!]
Ruger 77UL in .250 AI [sold it,shouldn't have!,,,arrrg!]

[Greywuuf]

Alan, you sound very familiar. Have I had conversations with you over on varminthunters ?. PS have you ever actually run a 25-308 ? what kind of performance would you expect ? Not sure what action to put this on. I seem to be short on 700 short actions, and I dont think my FAL would do a varmint round justice accuracy wise. maybe I will get around to doing a switch barrel 700 one of these days.

Dan

[Alan in GA]

No.
I have owned and shot and reloaded for several other 25s:
25-06 [2]
250 Savage [3]
250 Savage Improved [2]
257 Roberts Improved [1]

I am just convinced after working with factory [Winchester] .250 Savage ammo/cases,,that the .308 case is 'better'. I guess having .243, 308, and .358 Winchester rifles, using factory ammo and reloads, using NATO cases for .358 Win cases has made the difference obvious.
Could be it's all in my head.
I always have to assume the factory bean counter's research has told them the offering of a 25-08 would not sell enough to make it profitable.
What about the 258 Federal? Seems Federal is 'for' making a .338 Federal, might as well ad to "their line" of new rounds~!
Alan in GA.

[700X]

Hey guys,
How about a .25/284? I've been kicking around that idea for awhile. Don't worry about feeding problems. My .284 Win is in a Rem 700 switch barrel rig, with the other barrels in .22/250 and 6BR, and functions flawlessly. Seems to me you could have as much fire power as you want in a short action (not a WSSM fan) and quality brass is available now that the 6.5/284 is so popular, although not anywhere near as cheap as .308 brass. What do you think? X

[Quarterbore]

Well, I know of a couple guys shooting the 6/284. One is a varmint rifle and the second is a 1000-yd bench rifle. These are some really fast shooting rifles but they are accurate.

I see no reason that the 257/284 would not just about equal (perhaps exceed) the 25/06 in performance...

[700X]

Based on my research I think it may exceed the '06 case ever so slightly with the lighter bullets, but I've never talked to anyone who's shot one to be sure. My 'smith doesn't have the reamer but I'm considering another 'smith a little closer to home that does have one. That project isn't the highest on my list, but it's on it. More people should consider the .284 and it's offspring. It's an amazing case....looks cool, too!!X

[Big_easy51]

I shoot a 25 Souper. I had it built by Hill Country Rifle in New Braunfels, TX, after reading an article on the cartridge written by Rocky Raab in an old Reloader's Bible. (Google him and you will find the article).
The rifle is built on a hand-honed Rem 700 BDL action (I bought a slightly used youth model .308 and discarded everything except the action). Dan Lilja made a 23", #6 contour fluted barrel...a 3 groove, 1:10 twist stainless. The stock is by McMillian, and the trigger is a Timney set at 2.5 lbs. Optics are a Zeiss 4.5-14 mounted with Conetrol rings and bases. The barrel, action, rings and bases are finished in black teflon.
Uning 75 gr Hornady V-Max bullets, I can get 3 shot groups that look like a slightly enlarged single hole at 200 yards. And with a Sierra 120 gr boat-tail hollow point Game King, accuracy at 400 yards is about 1.3 ".
There is no recoil with the 75 gr rounds, so the impact can be observed through the scope. There is a slight jump with 100-120 gr loads, bu not really any different from a .243.
To sum it up, this is, hands down, the most accurate rifle I have ever owned, and by far the sweetest to shoot. Other than having to search for dies (RCBS makes them but you will wait for them) and finally finding them reasonably priced at CH4D (and in stock to boot), the whole experience has been a real pleasure.

[KBL]

Wow, it's great to find this place!

My favorite deer cartridge is the .250 Savage, and it seems that there are few places to discuss this caliber with much feedback from others. Quarterbore sounds like the right place!

I do handload, and this is where the .250 Savage is transformed from an OK cartridge using anemic factory ammo, into one of the most efficient medium bore cartridges I've found.

I'd be curious to hear from owners of the .25 Souper, as to the kind of ballistics they get with this cartridge using 100 grain bullets. I currently shoot a load in my .250 Savage that pushes a 100 grain bullet @ 3109 fps (chronographed 5 shot average). How much better does the .25 Souper do?

[257Koevoet]

I see a lot of questions on this forum as to why there are not more 308 Win based 257's out there and the consensus seems to be that it would offer basically 257Roberts type performance. It so happens that I have a F Class rifle built around a 308 Win necked down to 257, taper removed from the case and a 35 degree shoulder. I shoot the excellent 115gr Berger VLD's from a 32 inch Krieger and it is truly an excellent round. It consistently shoots 1/4MOA groups at 110yds (100m). I easlly get 3180fps with the 115VLD's and the 110gr Sierras (with which I have admittedly not done any load developments) does an average just shy of 3500fps. At this level there are absolutely no pressure signs. I have 1200 shots through the barrel and it still shoots like new. Even taking the longer barrel into account, the inherent efficiency of the 308Win case seems to come through and this one clearly punches above its weight. I have just last week finished building a hunting rig around the same calibre with a 28inch Border barrel - I will soon be in a position to report on what kind of performance I get from that set-up.

[Alan in GA]

so you have a cylindrical case body? I read an article on zero taper cases somewhere [Rifle magazine?] and it seemed there were 'not' the problems a zero tape case would seem to have. Extraction was fine with his cartridge, too.
Responses like yours makes me think once again about building the 'perfect' 25 caliber round using the great, tough .308 case. My .250 Savage Ackley Improved is as close as I've gotten to the 25-08.

[257Koevoet]

Thanx. Yes, that is correct. I have to date not had any extraction problems - I did notice that after the 8th reload with only neck-sizing inbetween (using wilson hand dies) the bolt started to close a bit more tightly. Measuring the cases showed they were basically just in spec, so I full-lengthed them, immediately restoring hassle-free chambering and extraction. For the record, as I could not obtain Lapua brass at the time, I am using PMC brass, which in theory should be inferior to the Lapua goodies. The only thing that I did notice with the body taper removed, is that feeding from a magazine is a bit more tricky (this is from my hunting rig)- I think I will get it sorted though with a bit of polishing on the underside of the action. In my F-Classer this is no issue, of course, as its a single shot set-up. I don't know if this is the "perfect" 25 solution, but it certaine meets all my requirements. Here in darkest Africa where I live and hunt, its useful having something with enough punch to knock down a big kudu bull (which the 257 has, provided good bullets are used and shot placement is right) and also to hunt Springbuck on the desert plains where shots at 400yds are not uncommon. This round does both admirably - what more can I ask for? By comparison, the various 243 calibres are good for the small plains game, but very marginal for the big African antelope.

[Alan in GA]

when moving from a clip/magazine to chamber. Polishing helped a TON when I built my .458 x 2" American on a Ruger 77 short action. Fed like buttered cases after that. Also polished bolt face and extractor lip.

[257Koevoet]

That is good news. Now if I can just find the time to get polishing! I will report back on how succesfull that turns out to be.

[Worriedman]

I have a .25X.307 (rimmed version of the .308) in an AI configuration. This came from Chase Mountain Custom. The cartridge was called the 250 Brady, there were a few built for the Encore platform back when Mike Bellm had an active forum. I put a Noveski polygonal rifled barrel on a "stub" a donor lug that was drilled out and tapped to accept the new barrel.

I have had really good performance with it. 120 gr. bullets do a job on our TN white tails!

Parent cartidge, fireformed case and .243 for comparison.

http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y108/worriedman/Cases1.jpg

[Rikky Lee]

What velocities and have you tried the 115 Bergers yet?

Most important from an AI mag perspective - what OAL do end up with?

[Worriedman]

100 gr. Barns TSX, COL 2.691" 3420 fps.
120 gr. Sierra Gameking, COL 2.65" 3015 fps.

IMR 4350 for both bullets.

Vel. measured with chronograph 14' from muzzle.

[Rikky Lee]

Similar results for the Roberts AI which continues to please. I think I can get more out of the 115s than I have at the moment as they are very consistent performers on targets.

Still have to try them on game.

[Neal]

Well, I have a 243 that I am using for deer and varmints... not that I get to shoot as many chucks in the summer anymore... but when I burn out that barrel shooting my little 55-gr Nosler BTs at 4000-fps I may well do a 257/308 wildcat next. Hell, I might just do real wild and do a 257 Souper improved :D

Problem is my little 243 still shoots great and with three small kids and a busy work life it may take me years to burn out that barrel that everybody told me I would fry shooting these little atom bombs out of my 243!

I have owned two 25 souper Rifles in my time, still own one, a friend of mine, has improved one as well,.. He states that if he had his time again, he wouldnt improve it, due to pressure problems, stretching brass ect. the Souper is an awesomely accurate cartridge, !00 grainers at 3050 f.p.s grouping at less than half M.O.A is esily achieveable,..My rifle, a rebarreled Weatherby .243,..and a Timney Trigger fitted,..which has a 1Lb 4oz trigger pull,..A.D.I 2209 powder, and sierra gameking projectiles,...Love it to bits,..

[weshowe]

Gents,

My own .250/3000 AI high grade project is two years off...that's when the custom 'smith can start. One thing full custom rifles will teach you is...patience.

In the meantime I'm going to fit a 250/3000 AI tube to a short action and "play".

Primary bullet is going to be JLK's 108 gr VLD in a match grade tube. Anyone have any experience with those?

It seems the quarter-bore clan is a small, but dedicated group. From all I can see the rest of the world is just missing out.

I like the .25/06, but it's just a little bit to much for my use. Besides, I LIKE playing with wildcats...;-)

All the best,

Wes