Clarification on "Inventor" of the 300 "Whisper"

[Rattler347]

Just as a clarification; JD Jones did not "invent" the 300 Whisper as the opening article to this site so boldly states.

The cartridge, under a plethora of other names most commonly called 300 Fireball, had been in use for many years prior to JD Jones capitalizing on the name "Whisper" which is of course is his derivative and 'used in commerce' name (although a search of the TESS Trademark database shows no sign when you search for 300 Whisper. That is not to say something else is not registered, but under those guidelines allowable, "300 Whisper" shows no sign, live or dead) of that chambering, but he was rather late in joining many others already offering such a cambering in a number of firearms including the AR15.

This has once again, come up as a topic of conversation with the latest iteration by Mr. Silvers and Remington as the 300 Blackout, simply another variation on a theme.

Bottom line, it is an excellent little round, and I wish Remington all the luck in further mainstreaming what the shooting world has known and loved for over 20 years.

[Alleycat]

Okey dokey


http://i289.photobucket.com/albums/ll210/difficultjane/evliplotting.jpg

[Titleiiredneck]

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v706/hemi1488/imagesCAXQ0MHP.jpg

[rsilvers]

Agreed it is wrong to use his trademarked name without a license - that is true both morally and legally. It would be like calling generic cotton swabs Q-Tips(R) or random facial tissue Kleenex(R). One should not do it. Beyond that, people just want what is best.

[i8asquirrel]

Well I for one don't care what you want to call it. I have never had a rifle that was less expensive to reload for or more accurate! I love the cartridge and and have it in a semi and a bolt gun,and plan on buildin a AR pistol in the same calliber.

[martineta]

Well said. Oh I love shooting on the cheap also.. Cheapest, fun, and accurate to 150 yds or so. Can not beat a 22 hornet. Not supposed to deer hunt with a hornet but I hear a head shot drops em pretty good.

[Spook]

OK so who actually concepted it if JDJ didnt?
Was the intent to shoot subsonic loads?

[Spook]

Hello Rattler earth calling...

Who invented it if JD didnt? Was the intent to shoot sub loads?

I've got some people looking for the first reamer order and die sets....as far as anyone can remember...SSK industries.


Like to know where your info comes from:confused:....Over

...anybody know this guy?

[eltice]

American Rifleman thinks JD did too. I would hope that they would have done their homework, but I guess they could be wrong???

http://www.americanrifleman.org/ArticlePage.aspx?id=1368&cid=31

[Globemaster]

Hello Rattler earth calling...anybody know this guy?
yes, I do!



here�s a web link to page #7 of an OA2 board discussion - 'Thread Topic' >>> the 300 Blackout (http://www.oa2.org/Forum/viewtopic.php?f=67&t=11304&start=150)



Edited to Add: here's another link >>> The OA2 Official 300 AAC/Blackout/300 FB Build (http://www.oa2.org/Forum/viewtopic.php?f=67&t=12416)

[Titleiiredneck]

Still doesnot answer the question he was asked about in his first post here.

[rsilvers]

What are we asking?

Who was the first person to take 5.56mm brass, cut it down, and open it to 30 cal?

1969 for the Air Force's Colt IMP project - though it was 30mm case length so that with the bullet they wanted it would fit into a 221 Fireball sized gun.

[Titleiiredneck]

What are we asking?

Who was the first person to take 5.56mm brass, cut it down, and open it to 30 cal?

1969 for the Air Force's Colt IMP project - though it was 30mm case length so that with the bullet they wanted it would fit into a 221 Fireball sized gun.

Well as in the 1.355 ish case and using a .308 pill is what we are asking.

[Rattler347]

Hello Rattler earth calling...

Who invented it if JD didnt? Was the intent to shoot sub loads?

I've got some people looking for the first reamer order and die sets....as far as anyone can remember...SSK industries.


Like to know where your info comes from:confused:....Over

...anybody know this guy?

Well, over time sometimes memories sour as media advertising takes over.

If you search the Federal Trade Mark records you'll find that the word "whisper" in relation to JD Jones use of that name as it relates to his various chamberings was first filed on May 13, 1994. This is public information that anyone can get. By that time in 1994, I had been shooting the 300 FB from Olympic Arms for more than 2 years. My oldest catalog in hand from Olympic is from 1991, and it clearly shows options for both the 7.62x39 and the 300 Fireball - which JD Jones calls the "Whisper"�.

In a thread on another forum, I addressed this question thusly:
The 300 FB was initially the first real viable option for a 30 caliber round for the AR15. It was used even before the first 7.62x39 conversion, and I'm certain this is true as Olympic invented the first 7.62x39 conversion for the AR. Everyone wanted the "AK" round for their AR. they wanted the increased energy, and to be able to buy the super inexpensive ammo. With the 300 FB already in popular circulation, the 7.62x39 was still a more popular desired chambering. However, because of the case taper on the 7.62x39, there was no viable or reliable magazine options. Oly tried several magazines, and when Colt� produced theirs, all they offered were 10 round mags that really only worked with 4 or 5 rounds in them anyway. Then, the "Franken-mags" came on the scene (1990-1991 or so). Modified AK47 mags with a brazed on AR15 looking magazine top, and believe it or not, they worked pretty well. Once this happened, the 7.62x39 option REALLY took off virtually flat-lining the 300 FB.

Enter now one JD Jones. After the 7.62x39 magazines became available in quantities that actually worked fairly reliably, the demand for the Fireball collapsed. JD Jone took advantage of this opportunity and came along with the "Whisper�" line convincing the public that this chambering was the best thing since sliced bread and that it would be particularly effective shot sub-sonic. Because there was now another 30 cal option JD made his push into the sub-sonic full-bore. To his credit this really saved the popularity of the 300 FB. BUT, it was almost exclusively about shooting subsonic, suppressed, and full-auto. It was at this point that Oly went to the pistol length gas system (6" gas system), not before, and only to produce a barrel viable for use in the subsonic. Oly also switched to a 1x8 twist at this time as well. That is the general progression of the 300 FB with regards top type of manufacture as related to gas systems.

Check old catalogs and magazine articles are enough
to easily flesh out the fact that the 300FB was out and popular long before JD Jone popularized the name "Whisper�". A cursory research will show this easily.

Hope this helps.

Please understand, I mean no disrespect to Mr. Jones or SSK Industries. However I will say that Mr. Jones has made his reputation "bed" and now he must lay in it. In the firearms circles he is well known for his, shall we say, 'distaste' for those who have dabbled in this chambering - despite the fact that he did not invent that chambering. Want to test the popular theory? Call JD Jones and ask him for some ammo and dies and tell him you got your barrel from Olympic Arms or AAC. 'Nuff said.

I must, and will again here as I have in many other forums, give credit where credit is due. SSK Industries really kept the 300 FB/Whisper� alive! They did a great job at marketing and building a niche market where one had flopped before. Kudos all the way around. But to lay claim to having created the chambering is clearly misleading (depending on the descriptive terms used - words like 'developed' - as what does 'develop' mean...), and to claim it's inception/invention is clearly false.

I hope that helps.

[amafrank]

I'm not one of JD's fans. I tried talking to him reasonably and was called a thief and a number of other things despite the fact that I offered to pay for the info I was looking for.
Having said all that I will admit that JD is probably the one who popularized the subsonic shooting of the round. I know he isn't the inventor though as the round was used for silhouette shooting back in the 60's. A number of shooters were expanding the .221 fireball to .30 cal not long after it came out and the same was done with the .223 both in full length and in various shortened case versions. I tripped over an article from a shooting mag printed in the late 60's which talked about a silhouette shooter using a .221 fireball case necked up to .30 cal firing 220gr bullets in a remington XP-100 he built. I doubt he was loading subsonics but its the same round and shooting heavies.....
In any case it doesn't really matter in the long run. We get to play with a neat round, JD gets his ego stroked, remington gets to hype a "new" round and we get the brass from a factory source.

Frank

[Rattler347]

American Rifleman thinks JD did too. I would hope that they would have done their homework, but I guess they could be wrong???

http://www.americanrifleman.org/ArticlePage.aspx?id=1368&cid=31

Of course they do, he is a media darling who frequently contributes to quite a few publications. This is again, not to down=play Mr. Jones. His contributions to the industry have been immense. But his involvement in the development of the 300FB is - overstated.

[Rattler347]

I'm not one of JD's fans. I tried talking to him reasonably and was called a thief and a number of other things despite the fact that I offered to pay for the info I was looking for.
Having said all that I will admit that JD is probably the one who popularized the subsonic shooting of the round. I know he isn't the inventor though as the round was used for silhouette shooting back in the 60's. A number of shooters were expanding the .221 fireball to .30 cal not long after it came out and the same was done with the .223 both in full length and in various shortened case versions. I tripped over an article from a shooting mag printed in the late 60's which talked about a silhouette shooter using a .221 fireball case necked up to .30 cal firing 220gr bullets in a remington XP-100 he built. I doubt he was loading subsonics but its the same round and shooting heavies.....
In any case it doesn't really matter in the long run. We get to play with a neat round, JD gets his ego stroked, remington gets to hype a "new" round and we get the brass from a factory source.

Frank

Good way to put it. Well done.

[Rattler347]

Hello Rattler earth calling...
...
Like to know where your info comes from:confused:....Over

It comes from 17 years in the AR industry, a tour in the US Infantry as an Armorer, and over 25 years in the firearms industry filling ever position from floor sweeping to authoring for periodicals and books.

...anybody know this guy?

Good question from a guy nicknamed "Spook" lol...

Why not just send me a PM and ask next time. Happy to share! :smile:

Tom Spithaler, Sales Director Olympic Arms, Inc. you can email me at tom@olyarms.com for Oly related issues or questions, or through my publishing firm at tom@AR15hunter.com. I currently serve as the firearms Editor for Survival Quarterly, have authored articles in the Blue Book of Gun Values and other publications, and while filling my role as the Sales Director at Oly, do a lot of freelance work through a private firm called Spithaler Media Services that over-sees The Olympic Arms Owners Association (http://www.oa2.org), AR15Hunter (http://www.ar15hunter.com) (just did a really cool interview with Tom Gresham at Gun Talk Radio about that site) and several others in the works.

My intention was not to come here as a shameless self -promoter, but since my credentials have been called into question, there you go.

Glad to answer any questions you might have.

[Spook]

Well, over time sometimes memories sour as media advertising takes over.



Enter now one JD Jones. After the 7.62x39 magazines became available in quantities that actually worked fairly reliably, the demand for the Fireball collapsed. JD Jone took advantage of this opportunity and came along with the "Whisper�" line convincing the public that this chambering was the best thing since sliced bread and that it would be particularly effective shot sub-sonic. Because there was now another 30 cal option JD made his push into the sub-sonic full-bore. To his credit this really saved the popularity of the 300 FB. BUT, it was almost exclusively about shooting subsonic, suppressed, and full-auto. It was at this point that Oly went to the pistol length gas system (6" gas system), not before, and only to produce a barrel viable for use in the subsonic. Oly also switched to a 1x8 twist at this time as well. That is the general progression of the 300 FB with regards top type of manufacture as related to gas systems. [/I][/INDENT]



Hope this helps.

Please understand, I mean no disrespect to Mr. Jones or SSK Industries. However I will say that Mr. Jones has made his reputation "bed" and now he must lay in it. In the firearms circles he is well known for his, shall we say, 'distaste' for those who have dabbled in this chambering - despite the fact that he did not invent that chambering. Want to test the popular theory? Call JD Jones and ask him for some ammo and dies and tell him you got your barrel from Olympic Arms or AAC. 'Nuff said.

I must, and will again here as I have in many other forums, give credit where credit is due. SSK Industries really kept the 300 FB/Whisper� alive! They did a great job at marketing and building a niche market where one had flopped before. Kudos all the way around. But to lay claim to having created the chambering is clearly misleading (depending on the descriptive terms used - words like 'developed' - as what does 'develop' mean...), and to claim it's inception/invention is clearly false.

I hope that helps.

So...was it JD that took the round into the subsonic realm? or Oly Arms?

I've also heard the stories about JD being cranky, but I've talked to him a dozen times on the phone from everything to identifying a used SSK 338W barrel to subsonic 308 Win...just like talking to anybody else.
It was JD that sold me a handfull of .510 cases and a set of dies and said "knock yourself out".
Perhaps theres something to be said for the way things are approached.
I've since purchased 2 sets of 338W and a set of 375W just by calling up and ordering. He's always been good to me.

Now I have to put the guys at Oly on my Christmas card list too.

[martineta]

I never had a reason to Butt Heads with JD. I have a bunch of his 10 inch contender barrels that I have resold to my paper and steel ram murdering pals in my shooting club in Paraguay. All my dealings with him have been great. He has stopped his work in his shop several times to come answer questions and give me advise on reloading. I like him a lot. My guess is we can all be pricks when the right button is pushed. Call me a lover of 300 WTF ever.:smile:

[Rattler347]

I never had a reason to Butt Heads with JD. I have a bunch of his 10 inch contender barrels that I have resold to my paper and steel ram murdering pals in my shooting club in Paraguay. All my dealings with him have been great. He has stopped his work in his shop several times to come answer questions and give me advise on reloading. I like him a lot. My guess is we can all be pricks when the right button is pushed. Call me a lover of 300 WTF ever.:smile:

That is generally what I hear as well. As long as you are shooting SSK manufactured stuff, he is easy to deal with. Tell him you are using an Olympic or some other manufactured barrel, and he becomes Mt. Hyde.

Again, this is not an SSK bashing thread, never meant to be. I wish JDJ and SSK all the well wishes in the world. I just want credit to go where it is due, and not applied where it does not belong.

[Rattler347]

So...was it JD that took the round into the subsonic realm? or Oly Arms?

Again, not really, but he popularized it that way. You have to remember, as other people have already pointed out, people were shooting this round in the late 60's and all through the 70's long before it was chambered in the AR. It was a very popular wildcat for nearly 30 years before SSK Trademarked the name Whisper�!

I've also heard the stories about JD being cranky, but I've talked to him a dozen times on the phone from everything to identifying a used SSK 338W barrel to subsonic 308 Win...just like talking to anybody else.
It was JD that sold me a handfull of .510 cases and a set of dies and said "knock yourself out".
Perhaps there's something to be said for the way things are approached.
I've since purchased 2 sets of 338W and a set of 375W just by calling up and ordering. He's always been good to me.

Now I have to put the guys at Oly on my Christmas card list too.
Right, again, as long as you are using his stuff and buying things from Him, all will be well. He makes a GOOD product, so why not!

[Rattler347]

Still doesnot answer the question he was asked about in his first post here.

Have I answered that question yet? Sorry, am not meaning to avoid anything. Let me know if you still have questions. Happy to be of assistance. :cool:

[Titleiiredneck]

The reason your posts were moderated was probally for spam, just answering your posts from oa2.org

Also when you have 1 post and you start spouting off stuff no one takes you seriously "this is the internet ya know". My only take on the 30 fb/whisper/ BO is that its a fun cartridge to take game and shoot for fun and in comps under 600 yds, other than that its just another round. Something else will come out shortly like it always does and take the lead in the subsonic/supersonic world, peferrably in 416 or 458 and functions with supers and subs in a AR-10 platform :)



Again I stand with the first statement made in this thread as said below..


http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v706/hemi1488/imagesCAXQ0MHP.jpg

[Titleiiredneck]

That is generally what I hear as well. As long as you are shooting SSK manufactured stuff, he is easy to deal with. Tell him you are using an Olympic or some other manufactured barrel, and he becomes Mt. Hyde.



Actually I talked to him on the phone a few times and asked about reloading 300 whisper 3 or 4 years ago and he was quite nice, I even stated it was a short barrel made by a member on here and he was happy it shot so well with supersonics. Come to think of it he even thanked me for actually listening to him ramble on HA! He was a happy camper about other people "hobbist gunsmiths" making simmilar stuff to keep subsonic shooting so active and alive. Quite frankly he did not seem angry at all about the fact that I couldnt afford to pay so much for a upper "SSK" and had to piece my first 300 together just to be able to afford it, and said call back anytime as it was very nice to talk to someone with the same interests in life and guns. He may have changed since then but I doubt it.

[HUNTER2]

Must of got onto some happy pills. Years back I was interested in getting his 50-70-750 ( another kind of 510 whisper ). Asked to get some reload data first so I could study it. NO WAY! Buy the barrel and it will be with it... OK. Bought the barrel ( shoots real good )and asked for some info on the 300 Whisper. Again - SOL.. A few months ago this forum went down for some reason. I got brave and emailed JD about the site since it was listed on his site. "No idea. Don't care if it stays down. It would make my life a lot simplier if all of those guys died!" Sure, he has changed!!!!~ Smart fellow with a bad attitude. Some of you like him and that is fine. Glad you had good dealings with him. He did a good thing for the industry the way he kept things alive. Long live the 300 WTF whoever came up with it!!!!!!

[daveinsvaz]

I have several 300 BLK/Whisper/30/221 in various forms (AR, Contender, 700 Remington), but recently I have found two unusual variations.
They are AR uppers. Shop made to left hand eject. Professionally made, but not a commercial item. The right hand port has been closed but is visible.
The handguards are heavy steel, not aluminum. They have three markings: "30 FB"; what appears to be initals "M.A.C." and a small symbol of three interlocked circles.
Barrels are very heavy 16" stainless barrels.
They are older. One still has an A1 'carry handle' rear sight. No forward assist. The other has the 'carry handle' machined off and a steel rail put on.
I believe thay originated in either Alaska or Idaho.
I have some pictures if someone could tell me how to upload them and the best format to utilize.

Dave Davidson
Sierra Vista, AZ

[Alleycat]

http://photobucket.com/







I have several 300 BLK/Whisper/30/221 in various forms (AR, Contender, 700 Remington), but recently I have found two unusual variations.
They are AR uppers. Shop made to left hand eject. Professionally made, but not a commercial item. The right hand port has been closed but is visible.
The handguards are heavy steel, not aluminum. They have three markings: "30 FB"; what appears to be initals "M.A.C." and a small symbol of three interlocked circles.
Barrels are very heavy 16" stainless barrels.
They are older. One still has an A1 'carry handle' rear sight. No forward assist. The other has the 'carry handle' machined off and a steel rail put on.
I believe thay originated in either Alaska or Idaho.
I have some pictures if someone could tell me how to upload them and the best format to utilize.

Dave Davidson
Sierra Vista, AZ

[daveinsvaz]

1217

1218

1219

Pictures of 30 FB upper...

Thanks for information.

Dave

[Mike Bell]

MAC might be Military Armament Corp. which was located in Ducktown, TN. I think in the early 80's "Ingram" bought out MAC.


Maybe..............MAC was working on some proto type fireball .300/221 thingys back in the 70's ........maybe thats where the idea came from. And maybe this might be the chicken or the egg.

[rumlover]

Wow, that's information that I might have cared about a decade ago. Thanks for the rewind!

[daveinsvaz]

Thanks to Mike Bell,
Good information. Appriciate the assistance.

[Mike Bell]

I have no idea if its true or not, just what I saw in a gun book. The Ingram comment was just a theory:eek: