Bolt action barrel recommendations

[N310toN170]

So, with the Remington $75 mail in rebate, I picked up an SPS Varmint in .204. The question is now, what barrel to put on it to make the .300/WTF?

The AAC prefit has been out for awhile, any thoughts as to quality and accuracy? Are there advantages or disadvantages of the prefit chamber and having to headspace from the recoil lug?

Or do you just go with a known barrel maker (Shilen, Krieger, Douglas, et al) and use a .300 BLK; .300/WTF reamer?

If a custom barrel is used... Does anyone have experience using the 5R or C type grooves with subsonics? I've used my 5R .308 for a few loads subsonic and was quite impressed but didn't know how that may carry over to .300/.

Your input is greatly appreciated, as always!

[ohnomrbillk]

A local smith who does work for me made a recent model 7 youth 223 into a 300 RSSGI (300 whisper). He used a Shilen number 3 contour. Barrel cut to I believe 17.5" gave a muzzle diameter of I believe 0.780. It shoots. One in 8 twist will be the way to go.

I recommend supporting your local smith if at all possible to build a good relationship and save you shipping charges. If that isn't an option, Spook on this board does great work, and is very knowledgable.

I've ran Shilen, PacNor, and Brux barrels on all of my builds, and have no complaints. I have not used any of the rifling variations you mentioned on the 300 RSSGI. The barrels from AAC are finished in a way that I would stay away from due to concern of heat exposure, not to mention they are made by a mystery maker who spends his off time as a rocket scientist who practices voodoo.....

[BWE Firearms]

I have used Douglas, Shilen, and Lothar Walther with good results.

[ds762]

300 RSSGI ?? Do tell!

[Mike Bell]

300 RSSGI

Oh shit, not another one...:eek:

[ohnomrbillk]

ds762,
You are the originator of the 300 wtf, and I wouldn't dream of stealing your thunder.....that said the SGI of RSSGI is "Steals Great Ideas" if you ask in my shooting group. As to who RS is, I assume it is Russel Stover's, and I can only assume it has to do with spending too much money on chocolate for Valentine's Day. No way it has anything to do with the cartridge you came up with and anyone who is trying to promote it as there own. I have no doubt the name of their wildcat will change again....I suspect next month sometime. When it does, I will be sure to post it for you. :grin:

[TCCrewchief76]

So are we to bash Remington for giving us the 260 Remington? If I remember correctly, it was Rick Jamison who made it popular, but Remington who gave it corporate support. Look what the 260 has done in the tactical/competition arena. One could even argue that it has popularized the 6.5 caliber in a way to say that it is the reason, fundamentally, that the 6.5-284 and 6.5x47 Lapua have come to fruition and become popular.

With the above being said, I own not one Remington product (although I have in the past), and if the anti-gunners could see how we are basically turning on each other OVER A NAME, they would laugh themselves straight to the voting booth to make sure they put just one more nail in the coffin for this freedom that we seem to be all too happy to trivialize by trouncing on the responsible parties that further the cause.

Off my soap box now,

Kevin

[rsilvers]

The AAC barrels are treated much the same as the new Army XM-2010 sniper rifle.

http://www.usatoday.com/news/military/2010-12-09-sniper09_ST_N.htm

I am not sure what heat-exposure concerns you have, but the nitriding-treatment is a benefit. Glock, HK and Swiss Arms does it to their barrels.

There is no saying how the AAC barrels compare to any specific custom barrel without shooting many samples of each and taking measurements to see which is more in spec. That being said, we already did that work. The AAC barrel is made to a very high standard.

[rsilvers]

ohnomrbillk,

If you are serious about being upset that I helped bring this cartridge to SAAMI - what was the alternative? It had to be in SAAMI in order for most larger companies to consider making guns and ammo for it. Would you rather the 300 Fireball concept stayed obscure?

"Well, you could have called it 300 Fireball." No - that name is engraved on too many guns with random chambers... It would not have been very likely to get SAAMI approval for that.

22 Varminter existed before 22-250 - and I am sure at the time a few people said that the SAAMI cartridge should have been called 22 Varminter - but there was likewise a wide variation in the existing chambers. A new name was needed.

Also, SAAMI does not allow cartridges with registered trademark names - this is why 6.5 Grendal was rejected from approval in January.

[ohnomrbillk]

I am not sure what heat-exposure concerns you have, but the nitriding-treatment is a benefit. Glock, HK and Swiss Arms does it to their barrels.

There is no saying how the AAC barrels compare to any specific custom barrel without shooting many samples of each and taking measurements to see which is more in spec. That being said, we already did that work. The AAC barrel is made to a very high standard.

In a study done which you can find here: www.riflebarrels.com/articles/barrel_life1.pdf , the conclusions note that, "there is peeling of the oxide layer by tangential cracks under the surface resulting from shear stress." They note that chrome lined bores do the same thing, but in less time. That does not sound like accuracy to me.

If it made for the most accurate barrel, benchrest shooters would be all over it. For a battle rifle like an AR, it may be ideal.

George at GA Precision has told me most US sniper rifles pass accuracy as long as they can hold MOA accuracy. No doubt many shoot better than that, but they are not required to.

I guess answering the "are they accurate?" question is subjective to what the buyer defines as being accurate. By looking at the suggested premium barrel manufacturers, I'm guessing the expectations are high.

[ohnomrbillk]

ohnomrbillk,

If you are serious about being upset that I helped bring this cartridge to SAAMI - what was the alternative? It had to be in SAAMI in order for most larger companies to consider making guns and ammo for it. Would you rather the 300 Fireball concept stayed obscure?

"Well, you could have called it 300 Fireball." No - that name is engraved on too many guns with random chambers... It would not have been very likely to get SAAMI approval for that.

22 Varminter existed before 22-250 - and I am sure at the time a few people said that the SAAMI cartridge should have been called 22 Varminter - but there was likewise a wide variation in the existing chambers. A new name was needed.

Also, SAAMI does not allow cartridges with registered trademark names - this is why 6.5 Grendal was rejected from approval in January.

I have stated several times that the SAAMI approval process will greatly enhance the availability of products available in this chambering.

The fact that I am citing the movie Animal House in my other responses should make it apparent that the level of seriousness I posses in this matter is typical of all National Lampoon films.

I made the same statement on this forum concerning 22 Varminter into the 22-250. I understand that liability concerns with factory ammo in chambers of unknown spec.

I don't understand what you mean by the Grendal. Is Blackout not a registered trademark of AAC?

[rsilvers]

In a study done which you can find here: www.riflebarrels.com/articles/barrel_life1.pdf , the conclusions note that, "there is peeling of the oxide layer by tangential cracks under the surface resulting from shear stress." They note that chrome lined bores do the same thing, but in less time. That does not sound like accuracy to me.

If it made for the most accurate barrel, benchrest shooters would be all over it. For a battle rifle like an AR, it may be ideal.

George at GA Precision has told me most US sniper rifles pass accuracy as long as they can hold MOA accuracy. No doubt many shoot better than that, but they are not required to.

I guess answering the "are they accurate?" question is subjective to what the buyer defines as being accurate. By looking at the suggested premium barrel manufacturers, I'm guessing the expectations are high.

We don't use plasma nitriding so this paper does not apply to AAC barrels. Remington tested their nitriding process and found that it lasted 60% longer than hard-chrome. As for accuracy, it has no more accuracy potential than a stainless barrel. What I claim for AAC barrels is - the accuracy potential of a stainless barrel, but lifespan potential greater than hard-chrome.

I don't disagree with you that benchrest shooters have a different standard of what is good from other people, and in being clear, the AAC barrels have more of the design philosophy of an AI rifle or sniper rifle than a benchrest rifle. For example, a benchrest rifle will have freebore probably below the legal minimum - perhaps 0.3085 or so. The AAC barrel is going to have freebore around 0.3095. This is done for a few reasons...

1. To keep pressure down.
2. To reduce the chance of a stuck bullet if you extract before firing.
3. To allow for a cartridge to chamber more easily, even if there is bullet runout.

The AAC barrels are made very carefully to the drawing and the chambers are verified with ball gauges and depth micrometers, but the drawing does not go below SAAMI min as many custom guns would do. If you want to win an accuracy contest above all other considerations, you probably do want to violate minimum dimensions.

For example,

SAAMI 0.308 Win freebore is 0.310 minimum.
SAAMI 0.308 bullets are 0.309 maximum.
Custom gunsmiths 0.308 chamber reamers often have 0.3085 freebore.

This is not something an engineer who understands geometric dimensioning and tolerancing would allow. Perhaps every bullet a custom gunsmith saw so far was 0.3083 or smaller and they "never had a problem" with a 0.3085 freebore. Their guns shoot better during a magazine test and the gunwriter also had no problems. This causes the custom gun maker to claim they are better than a $6,000 AI or Remington XM-2010. Fine, until the user in the field extracts an unfired shot and the bullet stays stuck in the chamber, and powder is everywhere - and then the hostage-takers kill the hostage.

That is what I try to do for the barrel - well made and accurate but not at the expense of reliability under extreme conditions.

Also, pressure goes up about 3,000 PSI with small changes:

http://www.border-barrels.com/articles/Pressure_Trials_Consortium.htm

[rsilvers]

I don't understand what you mean by the Grendal. Is Blackout not a registered trademark of AAC?

6.5 Grendal went through the SAAMI process at the same time as 300 AAC BLACKOUT. It was not approved because the company would not allow others to use the name on products royalty-free.

"300 AAC BLACKOUT"
"300 BLK"

Anyone who makes SAAMI spec guns or ammo can use either of those names on their products royalty free.

[ds762]

Also, SAAMI does not allow cartridges with registered trademark names - this is why 6.5 Grendal was rejected from approval in January.

Let me get this straight .. you are saying that SAAMI doesnt allow use of a trademark name. Yet your/AAC trademark of the "blackout" went through because you allow use of the name without royalty?

Maybe I'm reading this wrong but you are appearing to contradict yourself (at least in my eyes).

[rsilvers]

There are only two valid SAAMI names for the cartridge:

"300 AAC BLACKOUT"
"300 BLK"

Neither of these is a registered trademark.

[TCCrewchief76]

As for accuracy, it has no more accuracy potential than a stainless barrel.

I believe this is what has got people up-in-arms. Not that it has no more accuracy potential, but that it will have less. Unfortunately, even match grade barrels, made by the same maker with the same reamer, using the same blank, will shoot differently with different loads. I'm sure there will be AAC barrels that shoot lights out. There might be some that don't shoot to that same standard. Model 1 sales makes 300 Fireball barrels: some shoot great, some not so much. As long as an object is man-made, there will be variations. Let's let Rem/AAC make barrels, and we'll all benefit from it whether or not we buy them for our own builds or not.

[rsilvers]

Whether they shoot the same, better, or less accurately than a stainless barrel will have nothing to do with the nitriding.

[ohnomrbillk]

We don't use plasma nitriding so this paper does not apply to AAC barrels. Remington tested their nitriding process and found that it lasted 60% longer than hard-chrome. As for accuracy, it has no more accuracy potential than a stainless barrel. What I claim for AAC barrels is - the accuracy potential of a stainless barrel, but lifespan potential greater than hard-chrome.

So what nitriding process are you using?

[rsilvers]

Salt bath nitriding.

[TCCrewchief76]

So this means that Hornady is loading a non-SAAMI standard wildcat round in the Grendel offering! If SAAMI rejected it due to its name, this would be the case. Perhaps they should name it after another fictional character, Gimli, from Lord of the Rings. Very small in stature, but carries its weight well despite its size. :grin:

Kevin

[robrob]

So this means that Hornady is loading a non-SAAMI standard wildcat round in the Grendel offering

Yes, with Alexander Arms blessing due to royalties paid.

[sha-ul]

So this means that Hornady is loading a non-SAAMI standard wildcat round in the Grendel offering? If SAAMI rejected it due to its name, this would be the case. Perhaps they should name it after another fictional character, Gimli, from Lord of the Rings. Very small in stature, but carries its weight well despite its size. :grin:

Kevin

Dwarves are very dangerous over short distances


:grin: