Help me decide, or decide for me!

[ilike2hunt2]

I'm a noob (first day here), and I have only one question. But before I get to it I will tell ya'll this. I have been all over the internet for 2 days and have looked at the Whisper info and Blackout info. I'm converting an AR over to one of these rounds but I can't decide which one to get.

QUESTION: Do I get a Whiper or Black out????:mad:

[sha-ul]

I would say go ahead for the blk, that way you can use factory loaded ammo, but can still handload if you wish

[ds762]

the same reamer I got from PTG that said 300-221 now says 300 AAC Blackout (with the original 300/221 markings defaced).

Its the same reamer so which one do you want your gunsmith to call it??

[rsilvers]

the same reamer I got from PTG that said 300-221 now says 300 AAC Blackout (with the original 300/221 markings defaced).

Its the same reamer so which one do you want your gunsmith to call it??

The chambers are not the same, it is like comparing 5.56mm to 223. They probably re-ground it. Nothing wrong with that.

[HUNTER2]

Blackout - the best of both worlds. At least it is standarized. I have 2 300-221 and both have different throats, 1.4 and 1.3. A pain!!

[rsilvers]

Picking 300 Fireball or 300-221 now that 300 AAC BLACKOUT has been SAAMI approved would be like picking 22 Varminter (that is what 22-250 was called before it was standardized).

[J-A-R]

Picking 300 Fireball or 300-221 now that 300 AAC BLACKOUT has been SAAMI approved would be like picking 22 Varminter (that is what 22-250 was called before it was standardized).

Has it finally been approved, last I knew it was submitted and still pending adoption.

Thanks
Joe

[rsilvers]

Yes, it has been approved since January 17th.

[ohnomrbillk]

The chambers are not the same, it is like comparing 5.56mm to 223. They probably re-ground it. Nothing wrong with that.

I called Dave Kiff to ask on the reamer print my two 300 whispers are built on. He said the print number is the same for mine as the blackout. I guess I picked the right one......so I guess the difference is the Blackout starts with the letter "B" :smile:

I appreciate there were numerous chamber variations in the wildcat days. It is cool for all the new comers to get a standardized chamber with the Blackout.......but it is still 300 Whisper. Mr. Silvers likely has smoke rolling out of his ears on that one. Not arguing he deserves credit for submitting the cartridge through SAAMI. Not arguing that the recent burst of interest will help a great deal of us in new products being available.

Since the Whisper was never a SAAMI spec cartridge, I fail to see how one can apply the 556 vs 223 argument. The whisper was whatever the end user made it. The difference between my chamber and a blackout chamber is less than what difference you will find in individual gunsmith's preferences in verification of head space.

JD had thinner necks due to his use of the 221 case necked up. He decided to be grumpy and keep it exclusive. The rest of the world went with 300/221. One can argue the difference of the chamber's between the two, but it still is within most manufacturer's range of tolerance.

I own a S&W revolver in 45 Colt, a Ruger single action in 45 Colt, and a Marlin lever action in the "same" chambering. Throat sizes are different, and if one wants accuracy out of each with cast bullets, you size to a different diameter. The Smith and Marlin have loose enough chambers that I keep the brass separate. Should I start calling them 451 Ruger. 452 Marlin, and 453 S&W?

My Ruger MkII won't feed CCI subsonic to save its life. My BRNO Mod 4 eats them great. I guess one isn't a 22 LR?

If it were me, I'd use the chamber reamer everyone else is using, and have the barrel marked "300 ilike2hunt2", and you can make it your very own, just like everyone else has. :grin:

[Alleycat]

If AAC tells people that you can shoot the 300 Whisper, 300 Fireball, or 300-221 in a 300 Blackout chamber and someone blows themselves up ACC would be liable. You can't blame them for covering there ass.

[rsilvers]

I appreciate there were numerous chamber variations in the wildcat days. It is cool for all the new comers to get a standardized chamber with the Blackout.......but it is still 300 Whisper.

Not true. The 300 AAC BLACKOUT chamber is designed to allow for higher velocity.

Yes, it will fire, but you cannot shoot full power 300 AAC BLACKOUT ammo in a 300 Whisper(R) chamber without exceeding SAAMI specs on max pressure.

Comparing 300 AAC BLACKOUT to 300 Whisper is like comparing 5.56mm to 223. They are not the same!

[ds762]

The chambers are not the same, it is like comparing 5.56mm to 223. They probably re-ground it. Nothing wrong with that.

Mr. Silvers would you care to divulge how a 300/221 reamer can be re-ground to AAC BLACKOUT specs? This would imply that the blackout is dimensionally smaller than the 300/221 reamer from Dave Kiff. Where is it different?

Not true. The 300 AAC BLACKOUT chamber is designed to allow for higher velocity.

Yes, it will fire, but you cannot shoot full power 300 AAC BLACKOUT ammo in a 300 Whisper(R) chamber without exceeding SAAMI specs on max pressure.

Comparing 300 AAC BLACKOUT to 300 Whisper is like comparing 5.56mm to 223. They are not the same!

please comment on the rest of ohnomrbillk's statements as I would like to hear your response on those matters too.

[ohnomrbillk]

If AAC tells people that you can shoot the 300 Whisper, 300 Fireball, or 300-221 in a 300 Blackout chamber and someone blows themselves up ACC would be liable. You can't blame them for covering there ass.

I understand the necessity of covering your rear end for liability. Saying that they do not guarantee compatibility would be rather noble.

For those who were not familiar with what has been done with the Whisper for a long time, it would seem AAC is trying to take credit for inventing this round as though it was their own novel idea. I don't agree with that morally.

Taking credit for standardizing a wildcat is one thing. That is something I have not seen from AAC. Give credit where credit is due.

I sincerely applaud AAC for pushing this to mainstream. We will all benefit from it. I just don't agree with the politics.

Please cite anything that shows me different on what AAC has claimed in their public press releases.

[Alleycat]

Remington did not invent the 6.5-08
Norma did not invent the 6.5x285 and neither did Winchester.
Remington did not invent the 22-250
Winchester did not invent the 243
Newton invented a lot of Savages cartridges, but he was under contract. So it's not the 250/3000 Newton.
You get the point. AAC is marketing the hell out of the 300 Blackout. So did everyone else that standardized a wildcat. I have a 300 Whisper and a 300 Blackout. The only difference I can find is that the Blackout has a shorter throat. It makes sense. AAC went for reliability first. My Whisper never fails so who knows. They're not marketing the Blackout to us anyway. We know what it is. The general public has no idea what the hell it is. Think 7mm Rem Mag. The marketing for it killed the 6.5 Win Mag. You can fault AAC for some of the things they have done in the past, but this isn't one of those times. We could rail on Winchester and Norma for both coming out with the 6.5-284 or we could just shoot. If you're going to be pissed at AAC for the Blackout you have to be pissed at all the big name gun companies.

[ds762]

I understand the necessity of covering your rear end for liability. Saying that they do not guarantee compatibility would be rather noble.

For those who were not familiar with what has been done with the Whisper for a long time, it would seem AAC is trying to take credit for inventing this round as though it was their own novel idea. I don't agree with that morally.

Taking credit for standardizing a wildcat is one thing. That is something I have not seen from AAC. Give credit where credit is due.

I sincerely applaud AAC for pushing this to mainstream. We will all benefit from it. I just don't agree with the politics.

Please cite anything that shows me different on what AAC has claimed in their public press releases.


+1 .. I couldn't have said it better

[ohnomrbillk]

They're not marketing the Blackout to us anyway. We know what it is. The general public has no idea what the hell it is. Think 7mm Rem Mag. The marketing for it killed the 6.5 Win Mag.

I think what bother's me is that their marketing will likely kill everything that says 300 whisper, 300 fireball, 300-221, etc, and there is some distinct compatibility with all of those cartridges and the Blackout.

7mm Rem Mag did kill the 6.5 Win Mag, but it would be quite challenging to shoot one in the other chamber.

I'm guessing that if you asked Remington where the 22-250 came from, they would tell you wildcatters were necking 250 Savage down to 22 caliber and called it 22 Varminter, and it was so successful that they adopted it as there own.

I appreciate that my example is of a different industry, but please try to think of this perspective. I am a student, and participate in medical research. We are required to publish. There is absolutely no doubt that everyone I work with stands on the shoulders of the physicians who came before us. Very minute differences in things we find today, or even a different perspective of looking at something is most of what we do. I see no problem with that. When we publish, we have to cite the people who came before us, and acknowledge that it was not our own. Failure to do so means I lose my license. Intellectual property is a big deal in my day to day, and if I did what AAC did, my ass would get sat out on the curb.

In no way am I saying that AAC is the first to do something like this, but it still doesn't make it right.

"We could ...., or we could just shoot" was Alleycat's suggestion. With that in mind, I apologize to the original poster for this rant. I suggest you have your smith do what is most compatible with what is going to be available (which will be 300 Blackout), and enjoy some good shooting.

[rsilvers]

Mr. Silvers would you care to divulge how a 300/221 reamer can be re-ground to AAC BLACKOUT specs? This would imply that the blackout is dimensionally smaller than the 300/221 reamer from Dave Kiff. Where is it different?

They just grind the entire chamber shape a little further rearward on the tool. The 300/221 vs 300 AAC BLACKOUT chambers are different in every single area. Not one area is identical (though most areas might be nearly identical). Most of the difference is in the throat.

[Alleycat]

Fair enough.:smile:

[rsilvers]

Intellectual property is a big deal in my day to day, and if I did what AAC did, my ass would get sat out on the curb.

You seem to be saying that AAC did not acknowledge that the 300 Fireball, 300-221, or 300 Whisper(R) came first. We did. It is in the PowerPoint that AAC released to the press and I presented at a conference.

[rsilvers]

Please cite anything that shows me different on what AAC has claimed in their public press releases.

From AAC Media Kit:

Proven Track Record
Pioneering work by JD Jones with the 300 Whisper®, and others with 300 Fireball and 300-221, have proven the concept.

Perhaps the press should mention it more.

[rsilvers]

Since the Whisper was never a SAAMI spec cartridge, I fail to see how one can apply the 556 vs 223 argument. The whisper was whatever the end user made it. The difference between my chamber and a blackout chamber is less than what difference you will find in individual gunsmith's preferences in verification of head space.

Headspace is allowed about a 0.006 range, while the throat in 300 AAC BLACKOUT is about 0.050 longer than in 300 Whisper(R) (about the same difference in the 6.8 SPC-II vs the 6.8 SPC throat).

300 Whisper(R) is proprietary but JDJ still has a fixed set of drawings for it. The 300 AAC BLACKOUT has a longer throat than 300 Whisper, just as 5.56mm does compared to 223.

I own a S&W revolver in 45 Colt, a Ruger single action in 45 Colt, and a Marlin lever action in the "same" chambering. Throat sizes are different, and if one wants accuracy out of each with cast bullets, you size to a different diameter. The Smith and Marlin have loose enough chambers that I keep the brass separate. Should I start calling them 451 Ruger. 452 Marlin, and 453 S&W?

All of the chambers you just mentioned meet 45 Colt SAAMI specs as an allowable variation. The 300 Whisper(R) does not meet SAAMI specs for the 300 AAC BLACKOUT because the chamber is outside of the range allowed by the SAAMI drawing. Likewise, 223 does not meet the dimensional specs for 5.56mm.

My Ruger MkII won't feed CCI subsonic to save its life. My BRNO Mod 4 eats them great. I guess one isn't a 22 LR?

That would depend on if they are within the specs for 22lr.

[HUNTER2]

Thank you rsilvers for being professional about this.

[ohnomrbillk]

Quote:
Originally Posted by ohnomrbillk View Post
Please cite anything that shows me different on what AAC has claimed in their public press releases.
From AAC Media Kit:

Quote:
Proven Track Record
Pioneering work by JD Jones with the 300 Whisper®, and others with 300 Fireball and 300-221, have proven the concept.
Perhaps the press should mention it more.

I stand corrected, rsilvers. Thank you for the citation. I had not seen the pdf of the media kit.

[Titleiiredneck]

Quote:
Originally Posted by ohnomrbillk View Post
Please cite anything that shows me different on what AAC has claimed in their public press releases.
From AAC Media Kit:

Quote:
Proven Track Record
Pioneering work by JD Jones with the 300 Whisper®, and others with 300 Fireball and 300-221, have proven the concept.
Perhaps the press should mention it more.

I stand corrected, rsilvers. Thank you for the citation. I had not seen the pdf of the media kit.

I would assume mostly/only the media has seen the kit as its a "media kit".:wink:

Personally you can fire 300 whisper/wtf ever in the 300 BO , and so since I do not buy factory ammo I am fine with this since I will still buy hoser's brass, and get my actions barreled by spook, and dont buy AAC or Remington as I dont care for them for personal reasons.

Furthermore, in all my 300/wtf ever rifles the chambers are within spec of the 300 BO so I guess thats a good thing. After thinking of this for a while I have come to the conclusion that whatever rem/aac says about pioneering this cartrige basically doesnot matter because everyone knows that they only backed this cartridge because, 1) they are remington and have deep pockets 2) to make money 3) to try to get mil/le to buy into it 4) most the leg work was already done by people who try to make a living doing this.

I amnot trying to put remington/aac/cerberus capital management, l.p. down just simply stating the facts as I see them. I just hope the small operation smiths still produce rifles in 300/wtf ever

[rsilvers]

I am not trying to put remington/aac/cerberus capital management, l.p. down just simply stating the facts as I see them. I just hope the small operation smiths still produce rifles in 300/wtf ever

They are, look:

http://www.mcgowenbarrel.com/catalog4.htm

[Titleiiredneck]

They are, look:

http://www.mcgowenbarrel.com/catalog4.htm

I said SMALL shops, and was referring more to the fact of the gun world simmilar to this, Joe buys a by remington called the aac in 308 because it's pre threaded for a suppressor instead of having one done custom because he bought it for $650.00 from a local retailer. In THIS world, why would someone spend 200-300 extra for a custom rifle in 300/wtf ever when he can buy one for $650 from a local dealer. See my point is that it will eventually cut out the local smiths who build these rifles for people who want them and will cost them "the smiths" in the long run.

If you dont belive me that your precious little blackout will sell for $650ish eventually then here is remington/aac in 308 that just sold for $600 and I expect the BO will be in the same price range unless rem keeps the volume low to raise the price.
http://www.gunsamerica.com/945290064/Guns/Rifles/Remington-Rifles-Modern/Model-700/Tactical/REMINGTON_700SPS_TACTICAL_AAC_SD_SUPRESSOR_READY_3 08CAL_NE.htm

[rsilvers]

McGowen is more than a few people?

But yes, the days of having to pay $1200 for a bolt action 300 Fireball are soon over. There will be Remington Model-7s and maybe CZ rifles for much less. People who want custom rifles can of course still commission them, but it won't be the only option.

[Mike Bell]

I like the idea of an off the shelf bolt gun in 300BLK as long as its the same price as the other basic rifles on the shelf like any 308,243, '06 and 270...:nanabang:

[Spook]

I like the idea of an off the shelf bolt gun in 300BLK as long as its the same price as the other basic rifles on the shelf like any 308,243, '06 and 270...:nanabang:

Mike keep in mind the sub industry out there making all the " blue light special's " shoot better than they did when they left the factory.

I'm not sure why... but the phrase " you get what you pay for" ... comes to mind.

[TCCrewchief76]

Mike keep in mind the sub industry out there making all the " blue light special's " shoot better than they did when they left the factory.

I'm not sure why... but the phrase " you get what you pay for" ... comes to mind.

Yep, and until Remington starts putting PacNor and Shilen barrels on their rifles, they'll sell for the $600 range (or more), and won't be as consistent as when going the custom match-grade barreled route. I now own two PacNor barrels, and while I haven't shot one of them yet (waiting for my State to get it's act together), the one I have shot barely makes groups over 1/2" with 10 shot groups with ANY load I've put through it so far...

Kevin

BTW, I'll make a shameless plug here for Spook, as his workmanship is OUTSTANDING!

[rsilvers]

AAC Model-7 300 AAC BLACKOUT rifles are being made and they are using premium barrels contracted to our engineering drawings.

[i8asquirrel]

I'ts good to see a calliber we enjoy become standard, and as much as the next guy I like affordable guns . But there is no substitue for a custom rifle.
I have an excellent gunsmith locally and try to support them with my $. :smile:

[TCCrewchief76]

AAC Model-7 300 AAC BLACKOUT rifles are being made and they are using premium barrels contracted to our engineering drawings.

Do your engineering drawings include specs for hand-lapped, stainless steel, air-gauged blanks? :grin:
If Remington can make that happen at a decent price point, they should get into the aftermarket barrel game and compete with the likes of Lilja, Shilen, PacNor, Bergara, Brux, Kreiger, Schneider, Hart, etc.

OK, let me have it (flame suit on),

:grin: Kevin :grin:

[rsilvers]

Our barrels are not made by Remington.

And I did not pick stainless steel because carbon steel with nitriding is more corrosion resistant and durable. And hand-lapping must be used if that is what it takes to get our surface finish spec, but it is a surface finish spec that is called out. We callout measurements, not processes. For example, bore-straightness and bore cross-sectional area are called-out, but not air-gauging as that is just a way to measure a bore. The chamber dimensions are called out in great detail.

On the other hand, you have a custom gunsmith make a barrel and you have no guarantee that the bore cross-sectional area is correct or bore straightness is within some limit.

Think of this as NASA rocket science. Eliminate the voodoo and do it with proper drawings and skilled machinists who can follow drawings.

[Spook]

On the other hand, you have a custom gunsmith make a barrel and you have no guarantee that the bore cross-sectional area is correct or bore straightness is within some limit.

Think of this as NASA rocket science. Eliminate the voodoo and do it with proper drawings and skilled machinists who can follow drawings.


Earth to Robert... come in Robert what planet do they believe this shit on? Over

[ds762]

Our barrels are not made by Remington.

And I did not pick stainless steel because carbon steel with nitriding is more corrosion resistant and durable. And hand-lapping must be used if that is what it takes to get our surface finish spec, but it is a surface finish spec that is called out. We callout measurements, not processes. For example, bore-straightness and bore cross-sectional area are called-out, but not air-gauging as that is just a way to measure a bore. The chamber dimensions are called out in great detail.

On the other hand, you have a custom gunsmith make a barrel and you have no guarantee that the bore cross-sectional area is correct or bore straightness is within some limit.

Think of this as NASA rocket science. Eliminate the voodoo and do it with proper drawings and skilled machinists who can follow drawings.

Since there is only a few actual BARREL MFGR's out there, who does make your barrels (both your blanks and who machines them)? This is a serious question by the way.

So you have spec'ed out a barrel .. ok .. now how do you verify your subcontractor's work? What checks are in place to keep QC up?

This aint rocket science. There are plenty of skilled machinists out there who have been successful in the custom gunsmithing world that don't work for AAC.

Sounds like you are saying that you are removing the "voodoo" but it appears that all you are doing is re-directing it!

[Hoser]

On the other hand, you have a custom gunsmith make a barrel and you have no guarantee that the bore cross-sectional area is correct or bore straightness is within some limit.

Yeah, but...

Barrel makers make barrels. Krieger, Lilja, Bartlien, ect.

Gunsmiths build guns.

[HUNTER2]

OK...So you are saying they are making uniform quality barrels. Are all of the 300 barrels nitrided?

[rsilvers]

Gunsmiths buy blanks from barrel makers and chamber them.

Yes, all of the barrels are nitrided.

[ds762]

so are you telling us .. that AAC has entered the world of barrel manufacturing? or are you just subcontracting out gunsmithing work?

[ohnomrbillk]

Think of this as NASA rocket science. Eliminate the voodoo and do it with proper drawings and skilled machinists who can follow drawings.

One of my careers before medicine was pyrotechnics. My specialty is rockets. Feel free to correct me, but I believe that makes me the resident rocket expert. I've also done a medical rotation in space medicine with NASA. Neither of which makes me an astronaut, and in neither experience did I see anyone making rifle barrels.

Voodoo is a branch of Christianity. Water into wine is considered. Walking on water is considered. Barrels by Remington or their subcontractors playing with the big boys seem outside of religious miracles. So does "creating" a 308 caliber rifle intended to feed through a AR15 based on the 221 fireball case and thinking it isn't 300 Whisper or a blatent copy with differences just big enough to create a patent...and from what I hear, cause feeding problems.

I'm starting a tally on best comments in response to Robert feeding us a line of shit. Spook is currently in the lead with 10 points...

[Alleycat]

Didn't you guys know all the current bench rest competitions are won with factory rifles these days. :rolleyes:

[Titleiiredneck]

Our barrels are not made by Remington.

And I did not pick stainless steel because carbon steel with nitriding is more corrosion resistant and durable. And hand-lapping must be used if that is what it takes to get our surface finish spec, but it is a surface finish spec that is called out. We callout measurements, not processes. For example, bore-straightness and bore cross-sectional area are called-out, but not air-gauging as that is just a way to measure a bore. The chamber dimensions are called out in great detail.

On the other hand, you have a custom gunsmith make a barrel and you have no guarantee that the bore cross-sectional area is correct or bore straightness is within some limit.

Think of this as NASA rocket science. Eliminate the voodoo and do it with proper drawings and skilled machinists who can follow drawings.


So Robert, you are saying that taking a piece of steel and nitrate coating it to over 1000 degrees f with either salt,plasma or gas makes a piece of steel more durable than a piece of stainless that has not been? You do know that this is a form of case hardening and when doing so you will have to cut the bore beforehand also causing the bore to be partially case hardened afterward and therefore possibly stress cracked and brittle? Personally I would rather have a stainless barrel ceramic coated "pretty much as durable when done correctly" and treated to 220 +/- degrees.

I would rather have a custom gunsmith chamber a rifle than some guy at remington that is overworked and pissed because of business issues, when my smith recives a pmo for a few hundred it usually makes him more than happy and that usually causing most machinists to take their time and do things correctly, just sayin!


Actually NASA usually contracts most of their work out, including the rocket engines so there really is not any NASA rocket sicence in building a rocket, just sayin!

[Titleiiredneck]

so are you telling us .. that AAC has entered the world of barrel manufacturing? or are you just subcontracting out gunsmithing work?

aac is owned by remington now.

[ds762]

AAC owned by Remington or not .. Mr. Robert Silvers has expressed that Remington is not making the barrels .. so ..... ;)

[HUNTER2]

Brother has this one gotten on a different track. And the original question was?????:confused: New thread started//.,';lk