Rare LanCay ?

[Tyjaz Tyjaz]

Hi I just found this knife at home , I bought it long time ago. And now I wonder, if it is just ordinary LanCay, or some kind of special edition. And If it is special, it is worth something ? Sorry for quality of pictures. And it is hard to see but buckle on sheath is dated 1992. Thank you for any help with this lovely piece :]

[pwcosol]

Thanks for your post & pictures of the Lan-Cay M9. It appears you have a standard first pattern M9. The very first bayonets had blades manufactured by General Cutlery. They are identified primarily by the company's name, (now Lan-Cay), being in entirely capital letters (LANCAY), of equal size & font, stamped on the blade's ricasso. The second marking variant is like that pictured on your bayonet, with a larger capital "L" & "C". Lan-Cay eventually received permission to eliminate some of the design features inherent on the original bayonet pattern, and the fuller was one of the first to be deleted. As M9s go, your example is not rare, but IMO more desirable than the majority of later variants . The scabbard should have all four lugs, and likely a original-pattern cutter plate. The 1992 dated FASTEX clip on the suspension would be a correct one for when the bayonet was assembled. If you research some of the many posts provided in this sub-forum, there is plenty of good information available on Lan-Cay's production history.

[Tyjaz Tyjaz]

Thank you for your answers, but now, I am little bit confused from second answer, as I can see on pictures above, If it is 1 from 350 made, it is quite a irregular thing... Just wondering how much is this worth, cause i can see on pictures above inovice from ebay to 905$ :confused: . I am going to read more about this one. Thank you :]

[porterkids]

Thank you for your answers, but now, I am little bit confused from second answer, as I can see on pictures above, If it is 1 from 350 made, it is quite a irregular thing... Just wondering how much is this worth, cause i can see on pictures above inovice from ebay to 905$ :confused: . I am going to read more about this one. Thank you :]

Your bayonet is the standard, first issue LanCay M9. The bayonet shown with the $900+ price is the 1993 model with the shallow fuller. They made approximately 350 of these. This is not the same as the bayonet you have. Sorry.

[Broad_Arrow]

While 350 of the shallow-fullered (1993) LanCay bayos were fabricated, does anyone have a rough idea how many of the standard, first-issue, LanCay fullered bayonets were made? Thousands? Just trying to understand the potential production run for the early fullered LanCays (excluding the earliest GenCut's).

Thanks,

David

[Mister Moon]

From Barry Brown@ Lan-Cay


Mister Moon...

The deep fullers in the early knives were mostly machined. We had problems in getting a good forge and laser cut much of the first production. Of the deep fullers, either laser pr machined, there were probably less than a very few thousand.




Barry Brown

[Broad_Arrow]

Thanks, Mister Moon, for the info. Very much appreciated!

[Tyjaz Tyjaz]

Ehm, is there difference between my bayonet, and yours '1992' on this picture ? I am getting confused , again sorry for bothering you, i just want to know what i have :]

[Tyjaz Tyjaz]

And what is the difference between my lancay and yours marked as year 1992 ?Or it is the same ? Sorry for bothering you again :]

[Mister Moon]

It's the same model.
The model 92, as on the photo, is not rare.

[ColinG]

It's the same model.
The model 92, as on the photo, is not rare.

Mister Moon,

The model 92 with the deep fuller seems to be getting hard to find these days. I don't think one has shown up on ebay in quite awhile although the early LanCay without the fuller seems to show up fairly regular. Maybe not rare, but approaching "uncommon" perhaps?

[Mister Moon]

Personally i saw approximately 3 model 92 / year.
Rare (?) yes or not, the point of view is different for each of us maybe.
For me rare it's as a model CLEAR, 2 or 3 in four years... and, ultra rare as the XM9 for ex.

Probably "rare" in the "futur", we'll see...
BTW, the price for many of old M9' model, seems not to reach(affect) any more a summit financially speaking...

It's probably the good time for buy an old PHROBIS... Or LanCay http://cgi.ebay.com/PI-Lancay-Four-Slot-Straight-Driver-M9-Bayonet-1994-/170585937023?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item27b7b6d47f


(PS : I wish that my rough translation does not raise too much problem to our friend the IndianChief76... that come depths of the earth...:grin: or not ! )

Amen.

[ColinG]

Yes, it is a good time to buy. On the other hand, it is a bad time to sell. I will have a table or two at the next Militaria and Knife show this February here in Michigan and, as usual, I will have five or six M9's for sale. For all my last shows very few people show any interest in M9s, either Phrobis, LanCay or Buck commerical. I am surprised at how many people don't even know what weapon the M9 goes to. (I have taken to displaying one on the end of an M4). This next show I am going to reduce my prices a bit more and see if that helps. Maybe because this is a poor economy state, but most people seem taken back when any knife or bayonet is priced over $100 - so it might not just be the M9.

ColinG

[pwcosol]

I think the M9's day has yet to come (so far as we collectors are concerned). This bayonet seems to be a bit obscure to the average guy. However, with the large number of cheap imitations now on the market; many from foreign shores, familiarity with the principal design will increase. Periodic releases of US Government "DX'd" bayonets have also entered the market. Another factor will be the large number of U.S. servicemen whom will have had first-hand experience with the MPBS M9 because of the protracted war on terror. Some of these warriors will undoubtedly look fondly upon this symbol of their service, and perhaps a few will even gravitate towards becoming collectors themselves. This has certainly been the case with war material from WWII, Korea, & Vietnam. Lastly, when Bill Porter's landmark book on the M9 is finally published, the secret will be out!

[ColinG]

At last weekend's militaria show I had six M9s. A mix of commercial and military. I only sold two at $150 each, but had a lot of lookers and questions. Three people asked, "Where is the stone that goes in the pouch?" Another two or three asked, "What's the difference between a military and a commercial M9." Of course the ever popular, "What gun does this go to?"

I sold one to a man who just wanted one for his bayonet collection and another to an ex-GI who told me that when he was in Iraq, he "used the heck out of his."

So, the bottom line is I thing PWCOSOL is right about new collectors coming into the mix as well as ex-GIs who were issued this bayonet and now want a reminder of their service experience.

CG

[ColinG]

Mister Moon -

Finally a fullered Lancay showed up on ebay. It went faiirly fast for $155 on a "buy it now". I think maybe it could have gone for more if not on "buy it now". The item number was 110656387059. If I did not already have a fullered Lancay I would have bid.

Colin

[Mister Moon]

Mister Moon -

Finally a fullered Lancay showed up on ebay. It went faiirly fast for $155 on a "buy it now". I think maybe it could have gone for more if not on "buy it now". The item number was 110656387059. If I did not already have a fullered Lancay I would have bid.

Colin

Great ColinG...

It's better for you, to not bought this "s**t" bayo.
This is wrong.... no dash blood groove m9's were made.
The scabbard is also too new... it looks like a "scrap barrel blade".
It's completely the style of a "re-canstruction".

[ColinG]

Mister Moon

Now don't hold anything back! Do you like it or not?

CG

[porterkids]

I think what Mr. Moon is trying to say is this bayonet is not an original early LanCay fullered bayonet. There are too many things not right with this piece to be an early one. It is a genuine Lan-Cay bayonet, I'm not disputing that. Just not one of the original early fullered ones.
- Blade should be marked "LanCay" not "Lan-Cay"
- Fastex should be dated 92
- Scabbard body should be early style, not Product Improved

[ColinG]

Oh, I know what Mister Moon is trying to say - it's that he says it with such gusto. Wasn't something mentioned in past threads about these fullered Lancays marked Lan-Cay instead of LanCay. I'll check later today, but something about them being for the commercial market or something like that.

CG

[Carlo]

Wasn't something mentioned in past threads about these fullered Lancays marked Lan-Cay instead of LanCay. I'll check later today, but something about them being for the commercial market or something like that.

CG
Hi Colin,
yes I saw a lot of Lan-Cay M9s which were released for the commercial market and are not original army issued.
Just look, for example, at this auction
http://cgi.ebay.com/Rare-Fuller-Blade-LanCay-M9-Bayonet-Phrobis-Style-1992-/160554452314?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item2561ca855a.
I can't see from the pictures, but the fuller seems even the shallow one.
Of course the marking Lan-Cay is not correct.
Basically all the M9s with bright blade marked as "Lan-Cay", instead of "LanCay", are not USGI.

[ColinG]

Yes Carlo I see that it is for the commercial market. I found a back thread by member PANCANAL dated 5-16-06 which reads: These M9 Lan-Cay U.S.A. Bayonets have blood grooves. The middle one has a deep blood groove the two on the sides have shallow blood grooves. . . .Note that all three have M9 Lan-Cay USA, and flat grind edge instead of a hollow ground cutting edges. If you look at the die markings they are actually different. One has larger letters. . . Only a handfull were assembled with the larger letters. Less than 20 were assembled with the deep blood groove. Approximately 125 were assembled with the smaller letter die strike and the shallow blood groove. . . Pancanal
After reading this I must disagree with fellow collector Mister Moon in that the auctioned M9 is not "shit". Commercial M9's are quite collectable in their own right and if there were only 20 assembled with the deep blood grove, as Pancanal stated, then that M9 that was recently auctioned with the deep blood grove would be highly collectable.
Colin

[porterkids]

I checked back in my notes, took a look at the current auctions being discussed and spoke to the seller. The bayonets with the fuller and Lan-Cay markings are from a small group made up in the 2003-2003 time period. Lan-Cay had a small group of original blade blanks that for one reason or another were not suitable for their military contract. These blades were not disposed of but held back and stored. The blades were pulled out in 2002 and assembled into bayonets. They were stamped with the current-at-the-time blade marking of Lan-Cay and assembled with the current contemporary parts, that being the Product Improved style scabbard with a 02 or 03 dated Fastex.

These are not 1992 first contract bayonets nor is anyone stating that they are. A genuine Lan-Cay manufactured piece from the 2002-2003 time period.

[ColinG]

Thank you for the information on a further history behind these commercial Lan-Cays. I collect military bayonets and fighting knives to a very limited degree and don't or try not to buy civilian/commercial versions; however, the bayonets that Lan-Cay currently supplies to the military have no different markings than what can be bought on the civilian market. If I remember correctly they used to mark their commercial version "UTILITY' rather than standard, current civilian/military markings. If I read this history correctly, only those Lancays marked UTILITY or the grooved 'Lan-Cay"s were expressly marketed for the civilian market prior to some law that now does not require different civilian/military markings. Of course, those tan, blue, red, etc. Lancay colored bayos are expressely for the civilian market whatever the markings on the blade. Currenly on ebay, as Carlo pointed out, there is a shallow grooved 'Lan-Cay' up for sale. Thinking back, I have seen maybe a half dozen of these shallow grooved Lan-Cays, but never a deep grooved Lan-Cay. So perhaps only 20 of these were made up, making them the rarest bayonet made expressly for the civilian market by the Lan-Cay company. Would you agree with that statement?

CG

[Carlo]

These are not 1992 first contract bayonets nor is anyone stating that they are. A genuine Lan-Cay manufactured piece from the 2002-2003 time period.

Bill,
we all know numeronegi as a reputable and seriuos seller (I myself bought few M9s from him).
In the auction I linked above there was probably an error in the description, which I'm sure was made in good faith (and later corrected/relisted).
Problem is that if a buyer reads, in the ebay description, "The scabbard is dated 1992 and is a match for the bayonet" and "This bayonet is an original U.S. Army surplus production item that was never issued", he could think (if not careful about the marking and the missing saw) that the bayonet was from the legitimate "shallow fuller" lot.
Apologize for my english.
Link to the original auction
http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:MPFvicUQfWcJ:cgi.ebay.com/Rare-Fuller-Blade-LanCay-M9-Bayonet-Phrobis-Style-1992-/160554452314%3Fpt%3DLH_DefaultDomain_0%26hash%3Dit em2561ca855a+/search%3Fhl%3Dit%26q%3D%2Bsite:ebay.com%2Blan-cay%2Bfuller&cd=1&hl=it&ct=clnk&gl=it&source=www.google.it

[porterkids]

Carlo,

You are absolutely correct. And when the seller realized that he had mistaken the bayonet for something it wasn't, he immediately ended the auction. numberonegi is a highly reputable seller and a very honest and righteous man. We all make mistakes, how we handle that mistake when it is brought to our attention determines the quality of the person.

[Mister Moon]

NumberONEgi began from his youngest age !
Bravo Howard !


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[SignalSoldier]

Bill Porter is on target. The Lan-Cay fuller blade M-9 on Ebay is an original Lan-Cay production item from 2003. It has a 1992 fuller blade that was part of a batch rejected by Lan-Cay quality control in 1992. The rejected blades were shelved and forgotten at that time. In 2003 the blades were found, brought out of storage, embossed with Lan-Cay and assembled on 2003 dated scabbards (quantity unknown). Lan-Cay owners decided not to sell them as they were oddities. So, at least a dozen of these 2003 M-9's were shelved and forgotten again. In early 2010 I contacted Lan-Cay and inquired about the possibility of these defective knives still being in existance. To my delight a search was conducted and the knives were located. Over a period of about a year I was able to convince Lan-Cay to allow me access to them. Now they are in my possession. Note the smooth area where saw teeth would normally appear. It is my guess that that was the defect that prevented them from sale to the U.S. Army. It was also the reason they were shelved in 2003 rather than being sold commercially. My honorable friends at Lan-Cay had no intentions of passing these knives off as 1992 or defect free knives. In fact, the sale of these knives to me was only done with my promise not to give, sell or trade in any way that would comprimise their intent to deal with total honesty. I will keep one and pass the others along to other collectors. At present I have around 200 M9's and will try not to loose my 2003 fuller blade knife in storage as happened in 1992 and 2003. I have 35 years in uniform and am still counting. Not that I have reach perfection but I press on. Semper Fi

[ColinG]

Hello SignalSoldier,

Could you please clarify or expand on what you are saying. Are you saying that there were only about 12 defective blades turned into 'Lan-Cay' marked bayonets and that they were all without the top serrations? You stated, "Note the smooth area where saw teeth would normally appear. It is my guess that that was the defect that prevented them from sale to the U.S. Army." This is why I am assuming that they were all without the serrations. The deep grooved M9 that recently sold on ebay did have the serrations, so where did that come from? Also, did they all have shallow fullers or was there a mix of deep and shallow grooved fullers? Thanks.

CG

[Mister Moon]

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[Mister Moon]

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[Mister Moon]

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[Mister Moon]

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[SignalSoldier]

Hello CG,
There were only twelve 2003 M9's found in inventory when the search was done for me. I have all twelve.

All 12 are shallow fuller, dated 2003 and have smooth surface where "saw teeth" would normally be.

The deep fuller M9 recently on Ebay was outside my humble network. I do not know where it came from. I am not familiar with the seller handle.


Respectfully,
SignalSoldier

[pwcosol]

From my understanding, throughout LanCay's production history, small numbers of bayonets (or rather unassembled blades) were stored/misplaced/rediscovered in their facility. Most of these likely failed to meet Milspec for one reason or another. Over time, with the Army allowing simplifications in the design and accepting some minor deviations in specs, a small quantity of these blades were assembled into bayonets for the military. Most of the remaining blades were then utilized for commercial production subsequent to LanCay's first public offering of the M9, in the form of the "M9 Utility".

As interest in the M9 grew in the civilian market, and government contracts neared completion, LanCay began to offer bayonets in different finishes, color schemes, and commemorative markings. Some individuals or companies were able to contract for limited runs of bayonets; often utilizing some of the left-over blades. Others acquired components and assembled parts bayonets, which were often sold over the internet. The bottom line is it is possible to find a civilian LanCay bayonet in almost any configuration. As collectors, this offers a myriad of variants to consider. Read the thread on this Forum about the USMC M9-FT. It is a perfect example of what is mentioned here. BTW, some small numbers of "Historical Reproduction" M9-FTs also have blades without sawteeth...

[Carlo]

Hi!
You probably already noticed an interesting auction (quite related to this discussion)
http://cgi.ebay.com/US-MILITARY-M-9-BAYONET-BOWIE-SURVIVAL-COMBAT-KNIFE-/380324145096?pt=Collectible_Knives&hash=item588d15e7c8.
I think this one is really interesting: first style blade with fuller, black finish, Lan-Cay marking.
As a side note: about the 200 of the first style blades that in 1995 were "placed aside in the factory as the blade tips were a fraction of an inch thinner then the specification called for" and ended with a first contract blade with black finish.
As far as I know these rare blades are all marked LanCay.
I have only seen pictures of these M9s without the blood groove.
Do examples with the fuller actually exist?

[Mister Moon]

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[pwcosol]

Well, after mulling it over, I ended up placing a successful bid on this bayonet, and hope to have it shortly. I am not sure just what it is. I made an inquiry to the seller as to where he had acquired this bayonet. His response was: "Item comes directly from a striker brigade member after deployment from Iraq. Alaska has a very large military presence , with several bases stationed throughout the state". What intrigues me is the provenance provided by the seller in having obtained it from a U.S Army soldier whom recently returned from Iraq with the bayonet. Now, that does not provide proof the soldier was issued the bayonet from military stores. However, in all likelihood he would have been issued a M9 so why buy his own (and what a odd one to get as well)? I will post some detailed pics after I receive the piece...

[Carlo]

Well, after mulling it over, I ended up placing a successful bid on this bayonet, and hope to have it shortly. I am not sure just what it is. A very well known bayonet collector has assured me it definitely is not an example of the off mil-spec 200 early first contract LanCay M9s which were later given a waiver from the Army and included in the second contract. On the other hand, I made an inquiry to the seller as to where he had acquired this bayonet. His response was it was: "Item comes directly from a striker brigade member after deployment from Iraq. Alaska has a very large military presence , with several bases stationed throughout the state". Since the Army issues the M9, seems unlikely the serviceman privately purchased this bayonet from a commercial source...
Hello!
Could you post pictures of your bayonet once you'll receive it?
I would suggest to disassemble the bayonet and look if the small portion of the blade covered by the guard/handle was parkerized as well (I probably think so, but there could be a very small chance of the blade being originally bright and later parkerized, like some Phrobis blades we saw on ebay some time ago).
Back to the "off mil-spec 200 early first contract LanCay M9s", were you able to understand if the blade was supposed to have a fuller?
The only examples I saw (with the correct LanCay marking, without the "-") are all missing the fuller.

[Carlo]

Carlo, the "off-spec" 200 bayonets which were included as part of the second contract have wide fullers, step in the blade spine, are concave ground, marked "LanCay", and were black oxide finished. Scabbards would be the P.I. pattern with stone. They were initially rejected because the blade length was slightly out of tolerance. I thought perhaps some of those blades might have been rejected early on, prior to the markings being applied and edge being ground.

Hi Fred, thanks for your answer!
Looking forward to see the pictures of your purchase.
Back to the off-spec topic, take a look at these topics:
The first one (quite old) is from forum user Rexmeyer (look for the pictures on the post #4)
http://www.quarterbore.net/forums/showthread.php?t=1537
The second one is from Mister Moon (just follow the first link in the first topic, the bayonet to look for is on the right on the 4th and 5th pictures)
http://www.quarterbore.net/forums/showthread.php?p=27708#post27708
As you can see, in all the pictures the "off-spec" LanCay (with correct marking, first style blade, black finish) does not have the fuller.
So came my question. :confused:

[pwcosol]

Carlo: I must plead Mea Culpa as I had provided you with erroneous information regarding the "200 off-spec first contract LanCay M9s" incorporated into the second contract. Having only read about them, I was under the impression they were early first contract pieces and bore fullered blades. Thanks to the links you posted, and some additional research, my error became apparent. In several conversations I had about these M9s with fellow collectors, no one ever mentioned them not having a fuller. So, "The 200" are late first contract blades with "LanCay" marking, step in the spine, concave ground blade, black oxide finish, & PI scabbard w/stone. Life was much simpler when only Phrobis/Buck made M9s...

[Carlo]

Hey,
no need for "plead Mea Culpa", this is not a conference on the M9. :grin:
We are all here to share the information available and hopefully learn something.

[pwcosol]

Thanks for your vote of confidence, Carlo. When I think of "first-contract LanCay production", my thoughts are of the early first pattern, standard production M9 with fullers. The Gen Cut blades and shallow fuller variants were so few in number we collectors separate them out from the finalized large fuller, standard production bayonets. But then came the later first contract LanCay M9s, which I believe comprised the majority of bayonets produced under that contract. I guess that is why M. Pattarozzi categorized the military contract M9s in his book American Gladius. It is a good idea, but doubt if it will become the method to reference these M9s any time soon...

[pwcosol]

Got the "oddball" M9 yesterday. Blade has the large fuller, step in blade spine, and edge is angle-ground. There is no marking on the pommel. Scabbard is first PI type with stone. Fastex clip is dated 1/95. The bayonet exhibits minor service use; particularly in the wire-cutter mode, and there was dust & sand down in the scabbard throat. On the left forward end of the blade is an area of what looks like corrosion. After close examination, I believe the left tip of the blade failed to be finish-machined during the grinding/polishing process. There is plenty of meat on the end of the blade tip. A few passes on the grinding/polishing wheel should have cleaned this off like the rest of the blade. The oversight should have been caught during inspection, and prior to having the black-oxide finish applied.

This leads me to a couple of scenarios. The bayonet was a pre-existing, incomplete, early first contract blade. Based on the mated scabbard, it may have been completed sometime in early/mid 1995. Whether discovered to be a reject or not, the bayonet may have slipped into (intentionally or unintentionally) the M9s destined for the Army. It might also have been shelved and later sold commercially. Considering the provenance, I lean towards the first possibility. I was trying to recall the time frame when Lan-Cay actually began to offer the M9 to the civilian market. Initially the M9 "Utility" was the only one. In any event, this M9 ended up serving in Iraq for a year or so, which makes it all the more interesting...

[Carlo]

Nice pictures, thanks!