300 Aac Blackout (300blk)

[BWE Firearms]

Has anyone seen this yet. From some posts buy the administrator on Silencetalk I get the impression it is a 300 Whisper.

[dflicker]

That's what it seems like. I'd like to see the reamer print.

http://300aacblackout.com/

BTW, I'm glad someone else finally caught on to using 7.62x35 :grin:

http://www.quarterbore.net/forums/showthread.php?t=1108

[rsilvers]

PT&G is selling official 300 BLK reamers and headspace gauges. Forster Products is making official 300 BLK dies.

[robrob]

Looks like a really original idea they came up with. Not.

[robpiat]

Looks like a really original idea they came up with. Not.

Merchandising!!!!

http://www.delawareonline.com/blogs/spaceballs.jpg

[TCCrewchief76]

...and may the Schwartz be with youuuuuuuuueeeeeeeeuuuuuuuuuueeeeeeeeeeeuuuuuuuuuu .....

[sha-ul]

it sure looks like a 300W, but without comparing mechanical drawings, it is hard to tell

[Scalce]

Good for them for bringing it to market.

Nobody else submitted the caliber to SAAMI.

I view this as a good thing.

[rsilvers]

If you load your own ammo, pay special attention to all of the normal safety practices. Recommended powder for most supersonic loads is Hodgdon H110.

For subsonic, there are special requirements and nearly all published loads are non-optimal for the 300 BLK upper. Many existing loads were developed for Thompson Center® single-shot pistols, or for ARs by people not aware of the magazine limitations. These loads pay no attention to automatic rifle function and should not be used. Look for a load which results in a cyclic rate of 700 rpm or more. AA1680 is recommended because its bulk density matches the case capacity and it will generate enough gas pressure to cycle the weapon.


Suggested subsonic load:

• R-P 300 AAC BLACKOUT brass
• Remington 7.5 primers
• 11.2 grains of AA 1680 powder
• Case length is 1.368 +0.000 -0.020
• Sierra 220 MK loaded to 2.089 OAL (this length is optimal for reliable feeding from USGI magazines)
• Chamber pressure 21,100 psi.

[alorton]

With a case length of 1.348" to 1.368" it sounds exactly like a 300 Whisper / 300-221 / 300 Fireball with a trim to length of 1.355". I'm assuming since they recommend AA1680 as the subsonic powder that the system uses a carbine length gas tube instead the pistol length. That is unfortunate as the pistol length has proven to be more versatile when switching back and forth between subsonic and supersonic.

As for the magazine problems caused by the bullet diameter that isn't anything new with AR shooters. I've found that a Pmag with the side rib removed is the best solution as opposed to loading ammo to a specific length. This also works well with my 7.62x40 which can't rely on overall length as the case is too long to allow such short loading.

Overall, I don't see anything new here. That said, I think it will be good for the cartridge family to have a SAAMI approved chamber and solid factory backing. I'm still waiting to see if the ammo is interchangable between the Blackout and the Whisper. From what I have read I suspect it may be.

[Colorado Osprey]

it sure looks like a 300W, but without comparing mechanical drawings, it is hard to tell

Not without signing a non disclosure:

Copied from oa2.org
http://www.oa2.org/forums/viewtopic.php?t=11304&highlight=

"I received an email from a principal at AAC just the other day "announcing" this "new" cartridge. In his initial email he went out of his way to tout the platitudes of this "new" round, and really make it look like something new and better than what we had ever seen before. The main crux of his email was this:

He knows that Olympic manufactures 300 Fireball barrels and that we have had great success over the years with them. This "new" cartridge of which this gentlemen represented himself to be the "project lead" in its development, was so close to what we make that he said, "Your chamber is probably already within the spec", but that he recommended we go to HIS reamers, and "recommend you change the name on your barrels to 300 AAC BLACKOUT. People will be asking you for it soon enough." I informed him that they already do ask for it, and that Oly calls it the 300 Fireball, and that we have been manufacturing it for almost 30 years.

After several email exchanges, he wanted me to sign a Non-Disclosure Agreement just to see a print of the cartridge. I was a bit thrown off by this, not wanting to get involved with or support an organization, project or individual that wants to push a new branding as an exclusive or otherwise fantastically new development, when it is little more than a rebranding that others have used and made famous over the last 30 years. Remember: JD Jones and all his wondrous rampages about anyone who made a 330/221 Fireball after he branded the name "300 Whisper"? Anyway, the whole NDA thing caused me to make some calls. After 17 years at one company and nearly 25 in the industry, I am not without contacts and resources of my own. In about 30 minutes I confirmed that the cartridge, although submitted IS NOT SAAMI approved as of yet. this was given to me as the reason for the NDA request. Hmmm... But I also received confirmation from a couple of inside industry sources that the chambering is almost identical to what Oly and others have been using for the 300 Fireball/Whisper® all along.

Specifically, I was told, "the headspace is exactly the same as 221 Fireball, the chamber is exactly the same as the 221 Fireball except the neck is .337 tapering to .335. The max case length is 1.368", chamber is 1.378 to where the case mouth would be. Throat is .309 for about .18 then it's a 1.5 degree into the bore."

Anyway the good news is they are advertising a partnership with Remington. Near as I can tell the partnership really seems more like a seller/client relationship with AAC being the buyer of ammo from Remington. In one of his letters he states that there are 5 Million rounds on order. Looking forward to testing some.

While I anticipate fully that the marketing will continue with the re-branding of the 300 Fireball as the 300 AAC Blackout as the next greatest cartridge to hit the AR, we all know it is not. Something that a theology professor taught me about scripture and doctrine sort of applies here: If it is new, it is not a revelation. If it is a revelation, it is not new". Same principal pretty much applies to the AR after 50 years of tinkering. Yes, there will be some exceptions, most notably the WSSM conversions, but for the most part that adage holds true.

The best news of this, is if it all goes through as projected, is that the ammo will be commercially loaded and available in case lots, that will totally reinvigorate the cartridge, and in the end, in spite of any negatives in the process, I'm all for it.

It will always be a 300 Fireball to me."

[robpiat]

Not without signing a non disclosure:

Copied from oa2.org
http://www.oa2.org/forums/viewtopic.php?t=11304&highlight=

After 17 years at one company and nearly 25 in the industry, I am not without contacts and resources of my own. In about 30 minutes I confirmed that the cartridge, although submitted IS NOT SAAMI approved as of yet. this was given to me as the reason for the NDA request. Hmmm... But I also received confirmation from a couple of inside industry sources that the chambering is almost identical to what Oly and others have been using for the 300 Fireball/Whisper® all along.



You'd think he would have put it together that AAC is a subsidiary of Remington.

[sha-ul]

I wonder if his chambers are a no-turn neck

[Expatriot]

• Hornady 110 V-Max, OAL: 2.000
• 110 TSX, 2.015 OAL
• Sierra 155 Palma, 2.150 OAL
• Sierra 220, 2.089 OAL
• Lapua B416 200 grain, 1.960 OAL
• Hornady 150 FMJ-BT 3037, 2.065 OAL
• Nosler Ballistic Tip 125 grain, OAL: 2.085
• Remington AccuTip 125 grain, OAL: 2.085
• Hornady 130 SP #3020, OAL: 2.010
• Sierra H2120 125 ProHunter, OAL: 1.950
• Speer TNT 125 1986, OAL: 2.010

I looked into these OAL's and while I think there is some merit here, this is not without controversy. These OAL's are VERY short for most bullets. While this may help them feed through an AR15 magazine more reliably they leave quite a large jump to the lands.

In my 300-221 chamber most bullets would be left with a .130" to .220" jump to the lands. That is an awfully long way for a bullet to travel before encountering rifling which is likely to impact on accuracy.

Also keep in mind that seating bullets this deep is going to change the pressure and velocity in your current load.

I will leave final decision on this till I have a chance to actually try it.

It will always be a 300 Fireball to me.

+1

PS how does everyone on this board like knowing that the certain person who "developed" the "new" round spent time trolling this board for info like case lengths, bullet choices, powder selection and loads? Then low and behold commercial ammo of nearly the same type shows up and someone else is making money from your ideas and work. :twoguns:

[Hoser]

I think this is a good thing for the industry.

If JDJ had not played I have a secret for so long, the Whisper would have been standardized long ago.

The more people using the 300 Blackout / 300 Whisper the better.

Who knows, we might see some factory R-700s coming out. And a registered SBR out of the factory isnt a bad thing. No need to engrave it.

I am looking forward to seeing it out there.

[robpiat]

I think this is a good thing for the industry.

If JDJ had not played I have a secret for so long, the Whisper would have been standardized long ago.

The more people using the 300 Blackout / 300 Whisper the better.

Who knows, we might see some factory R-700s coming out. And a registered SBR out of the factory isnt a bad thing. No need to engrave it.

I am looking forward to seeing it out there.


+1 . At some point He decided that he would rather have 100% of a small niche than 10-15% of a big pie. My guess is that JDJ had been approached a few times by manufacturers and was too high on licensing cost.

[BWE Firearms]

I posted this question on AAC Silencertalk.com to out what they did and was told the 9" barrel uses the pistol position and everything else uses the carbine position with non adjustable gas blocks. I'm sorry but you cant use the full potensial of the 300 Whisper\Fireball\Backout\whatever you want to call it today without an adjustable gas block and a pistol poision. I'm glad they are doing this so the Whisper and suppressors will finally be in the mainstream, but to say it's something compleatly different when its the some thing pisses me off.

[Alleycat]

There are a few issues with this development. The first thing deals with the Whispers semi wildcat states. For years the 300 Whisper has been our baby. Every one that owns one takes pride in running a cartridge that the average to the semi advanced shooter does not understand. The 300 BLK will put the Whisper in the hands of the masses. It's good for the cartridge and good for the uninformed shooters out there. It begs for a suppressor and every one that gets a 300 BLK will probably learn that suppressors are legal, which will increase sales. That's good for all of us. ACC did the same thing as all the other manufacturers out there with a Whisper clone. 300 Fireball, 300-221, 300 whatever. ACC just pushed the envelope farther and ruffled a few feathers along the way. The last thing is the banning of Devil Doc on ST. There are a lot of people pissed off about someone getting banned for telling rsilvers that he should not use an unproven gun as his carry gun. I am one of those people. It's his house and he makes the rules. I think some are using this as an excuse to bash AAC and rsilvers. I think a simple thanks for the help and info would go a long way.

[320pf]

I have also researched this round and had a chance to get the skinny on the chamber specs... It is basically the 300-221 Fireball and will most likely shoot in a 300-221 Fireball chamber. BUT, not all 300-221 Fireball chambers are the same. If your chamber will not shoot the Blackout you probably will be able to touch it up with a Blackout reamer and be good to go.

As some of you may well know, I have put a few 300-221 Fireball rounds downrange (~10000) and even built a few (about eight or so). I think that going with a carbine length gas system in the 16-inch barrel pretty much optimizes the 16-inch barrel for super sonic loads. That is not to say that it will not shoot subsonic loads but it will not be as flexible with bullet weights and powder types in the subsonic mode as a gun set up with a pistol length position.


Non the less, I hope that this cartridge is successful.

320pf


I looked into these OAL's and while I think there is some merit here, this is not without controversy. These OAL's are VERY short for most bullets. While this may help them feed through an AR15 magazine more reliably they leave quite a large jump to the lands.

In my 300-221 chamber most bullets would be left with a .130" to .220" jump to the lands. That is an awfully long way for a bullet to travel before encountering rifling which is likely to impact on accuracy.

Also keep in mind that seating bullets this deep is going to change the pressure and velocity in your current load.

I will leave final decision on this till I have a chance to actually try it.



+1

PS how does everyone on this board like knowing that the certain person who "developed" the "new" round spent time trolling this board for info like case lengths, bullet choices, powder selection and loads? Then low and behold commercial ammo of nearly the same type shows up and someone else is making money from your ideas and work. :twoguns:

[jasonusvi]

... I think that going with a carbine length gas system in the 16-inch barrel pretty much optimizes the 16-inch barrel for super sonic loads...

320pf

Makes some sense as the person getting the 9" is NFA aware and will more likely be shooting subsonic with a can. The less informed masses buying the 16" are more likely to be buying this as a supersonic hunting option.

I am new to this cartridge but given its powder efficiency do you get meaningful velocity gain out of longer barrels?

[rsilvers]

I wonder if his chambers are a no-turn neck

The max the brass can be for 300 AAC BLACKOUT is 0.334 on the neck.

[rsilvers]

but to say it's something compleatly different when its the some thing pisses me off.

Obviously I did not say it was completely different - I even told him that he may not have to change his chamber. He heard what he wanted to hear.

[rsilvers]

I commissioned gel testing of most of the recommended bullets on this site, and will release the complete report here for everyone to see and learn from.

[BWE Firearms]

rsilvers,

My comment was not directed at you. It was directed at the corporate PR people who always say whatever the product is they are pushing that it is brand new never been done before, greatest thing since sliced bread. You did say the chamber may not have to be changed but you did not simply say you took the 300 Whisper and standardized or massaged it. I imagine you didn't because the powers that be would have a fit if you came out and said it's a 300 Whisper.

Our THUMPER line of cartridges is new to us and I don't remember seeing them before I came up with them, but I have read Cartridges of the World about a zillion times and the 338-223 Straight is in there. As much as my partner hates it I would never say that I designed it or even came up with the idea of it. I trying to learn all I can about subsonic rifle cartridges I find myself going back to the black powder and early smokeless powder cartridges for some great information. Like many things we are just coming full circle and relearning what people used to know.

[sha-ul]

PS how does everyone on this board like knowing that the certain person who "developed" the "new" round spent time trolling this board for info like case lengths, bullet choices, powder selection and loads? Then low and behold commercial ammo of nearly the same type shows up and someone else is making money from your ideas and work. :twoguns:

think of it this way, you had a hand in developing a new mass released cartridge:wink:

[rsilvers]

We wanted to create a uniform standard and then let anyone use it royalty free. If we called it 300 Remington Fireball, many would think we would be saying it is compatible with all of the 300 Fireball wildcat reamers - and we are not sure it is. Most people already know this is a good thing for major companies to make more products, and those who don't will come around once they see the ammo prices. We have a lot of ammo being made before the end of the year - way more than 6.8 SPC ammo - probably more than all 6.8 ammo combined from all companies that make it.

[sha-ul]

We wanted to create a uniform standard and then let anyone use it royalty free. If we called it 300 Remington Fireball, many would think we would be saying it is compatible with all of the 300 Fireball wildcat reamers - and we are not sure it is. Most people already know this is a good thing for major companies to make more products, and those who don't will come around once they see the ammo prices. We have a lot of ammo being made before the end of the year - way more than 6.8 SPC ammo - probably more than all 6.8 ammo combined from all companies that make it.

so, you are saying it should be compatible with many chambers, or could be with 15 minutes& a touch up reamer
edit to add, It sounds like you have some ammo makers lined up, will they be re-purposing once fired brass, or making new? will it bear the 300blk head stamp?

[sharky47]

My business partner bought one out of the first batch, going to get my hands on it soon.

And yeah, going to be testing it to see if it will work with ammunition loaded off my .300W dies......

[L1A1Rocker]

It sounds like you have some ammo makers lined up, will they be re-purposing once fired brass, or making new? will it bear the 300blk head stamp?

IIRC so far only Remington is lined up to make ammo. Although, any ammo maker can without paying any royalty fee. The 300 AAC BLACKOUT or 300 BLK names can be used by anyone that is meeting SAAMI specs. I believe I read that the Remington brass is head stamped 300 BLK and brass will be available some time in 2012. Till then reloaders will need to make it from .223.

[alorton]

PS how does everyone on this board like knowing that the certain person who "developed" the "new" round spent time trolling this board for info like case lengths, bullet choices, powder selection and loads? Then low and behold commercial ammo of nearly the same type shows up and someone else is making money from your ideas and work. :twoguns:

Honestly I think it is smart. Find out what works and what people in the know want and then market it. I prefer that to a company that makes what they want and doesn't pay attention to what customers are asking for, which has been the case with large firearms makers in the past. I would expect a company trying something like this to do research first and that would include talking with those that have been there and done that.

[rsilvers]

http://stickman.rainierarms.com/galleries/AAC/868W0449-1024-Stick.jpg

[rsilvers]

Remington ammo uses new 300 AAC BLACKOUT brass. It is not converted from anything. Primers are sealed and crimped. Case mouths are annealed, and the anneal is purposely not polished out for visible verification.

[snipecatcher]

Are there plans of the military using this? Just asking because crimped primers are a b*tch to reload.
-Dan

[rsilvers]

Certain customers want crimped primers so everyone gets them.

[sharky47]

Nothing wrong with that, I'd love to have to tooling to crimp my own primers.

EDIT, I guess I will know soon enough by looking at it - but in the mean time I'll ask anyway.....

Did you change the feed ramp geometry at all to make it more .308 friendly?

[rsilvers]

No, it is a standard feed ramp. We considered making it more like the 450 Bushmaster but decided not to give up one of the lugs.

[kanton]

So bottom line is the 300 AAC BLACKOUT compatible with 300-221 Fireball/300 Whisper chambers?

[sha-ul]

http://stickman.rainierarms.com/galleries/AAC/868W0449-1024-Stick.jpg




NICE!:grin:

[sharky47]

So bottom line is the 300 AAC BLACKOUT compatible with 300-221 Fireball/300 Whisper chambers?

From what I can tell, I think so. I've got one coming in, so I'll let everyone know asap if no one else beats me to it.

I would think that there are plenty of reasons AAC cannot/will not ever come out and say it is, and I don't blame them.

At any rate, they look great and can't wait to try ours out!

[rsilvers]

Ever see a Venn Diagram?

http://www.learnnc.org/reference/Venn+diagram

The example in that link says Dogs, Humans, Lizards. They overlap with each other.

Imagine a Venn Diagram that said 300 Fireball, 300-211, and 300 AAC BLACKOUT. There will be overlap, but we can't claim compatibility with every reamer ever labeled 300 Fireball or 300-221 or 300 Whisper(R) because there was either no standard or it was proprietary and we did not have a drawing.

If a company has made, for example, 300 Fireball uppers which are inside the spec of 300 AAC BLACKOUT, then that is up to them to say it is compatible.

Noveske already did for certain barrels they have made:

http://noveskerifleworks.com/cgi-bin/imcart/display.cgi?item_id=300blk&cat=168&page=1&search=&since=&status=

[Expatriot]

• Hornady 110 V-Max, OAL: 2.000
• 110 TSX, 2.015 OAL
• Sierra 155 Palma, 2.150 OAL
• Sierra 220, 2.089 OAL
• Lapua B416 200 grain, 1.960 OAL
• Hornady 150 FMJ-BT 3037, 2.065 OAL
• Nosler Ballistic Tip 125 grain, OAL: 2.085
• Remington AccuTip 125 grain, OAL: 2.085
• Hornady 130 SP #3020, OAL: 2.010
• Sierra H2120 125 ProHunter, OAL: 1.950
• Speer TNT 125 1986, OAL: 2.010

I got a chance to get out and field test a couple of these OAL's. As stated before, some of them are VERY short. I found that with the longer, heavier bullets, this short OAL doesn't cause any problems and so may be a benefit. In my test the 208gr AMAX fed perfectly.

With the shorter, lighter bullets, this was not true. I tried both Sierra 110gr JHP and Hornady 110gr AMAX and have serious feeding issues with both using the short OAL.

The round would end up stovepiped between the bolt and the barrel extension. I'm not exactly certain how this happens but it seems the very short OAL allows the case rim to clear the mag lips before the nse of the bullet is far enough into the chamber to stabilize it and keep it moving into the chamber. Thus the round can flip vertically under pressure from the bolt and we end up with a jam.

I tried this a bunch of times and had prob 7 or 8 jams in about 20 rounds. As soon as I went back to the longer OAL, those jams disappeared.

FWIW this all occurred with a known good PMag.

[rsilvers]

The 110 Sierra had a large nose cavity so I never tried it. The 110 Vmax is a short bullet.

[320pf]

rsilvers,

Have you found this site?

http://www.reloadersnest.com/frontpage.asp?CaliberID=135

Most of loads listed under:

"Not yet verified user loads"

are one I developed. Others have contributied to this list as well


320pf

[buffetdestroyer]

I am very excited to see that AAC got Remington to team up on the ammo production.

I look forward to seeing this on the shelf of my gun store! :nanabang:
________
Big tits mature (http://www.fucktube.com/categories/278/mature/videos/1)

[TCCrewchief76]

I am very excited to see that AAC got Remington to team up on the ammo production.

I look forward to seeing this on the shelf of my gun store! :nanabang:

and most likely pay to the tune of $25 a box for what you could load for a mere fraction of that...

[rsilvers]

By nature of wildcats, anyone who posts in this forum has already resigned themselves to having to reload - but there are tons of people who will now have access to a 300 Fireball-like cartridge. 85% of shooters don't reload at all. And LE/Military cannot load their own ammo.

[sgms18]

Certain customers want crimped primers so everyone gets them.

Thats BS!!! There is no need for crimped primers, all they will do is add an extra step to the reloading process :twoguns:

[TCCrewchief76]

Thats BS!!! There is no need for crimped primers, all they will do is add an extra step to the reloading process :twoguns:

You mean the "reloading" process :grin:

Kevin

[TCCrewchief76]

By nature of wildcats, anyone who posts in this forum has already resigned themselves to having to reload - but there are tons of people who will now have access to a 300 Fireball-like cartridge. 85% of shooters don't reload at all. And LE/Military cannot load their own ammo.

SWEET! I just need to find where these 85% shoot at, and collect their brass when they leave! :nanabang:

[rsilvers]

I will make sure the staking is not excessive.

[robrob]

Certain customers

I think that's code for guys that are required to use crimped primers and slink around in the dark shooting bad guys with suppressed subsonic projectiles :grin:

[buffetdestroyer]

and most likely pay to the tune of $25 a box for what you could load for a mere fraction of that...

And the Corbon is currently $45/box and almost impossible to find.

I think this does nothing but help us out from a factory available ammo standpoint. Plus with the SAAMI specs being standardized, there will hopefully be more helpful reloading information from the major players. The Sierra Manual gets me in the ballpark, but my 10.5" AR barrel is significantly faster than the Thompson barrel they use... and I'm shooting semi-auto!

I do reload, but the wider acceptance increases the likelihood of new (cheaper) bullets being developed for this cartridge! Right now, if you want expanding subs, you have to pay over a buck each and then reload them yourself. it would be nice to have a factory option in the same price range.

Plus if by some longshot miracle, they get widespread military acceptance of this cartridge, then ammo will become very inexpensive!
________
Xv1600A (http://www.yamaha-tech.com/wiki/Yamaha_XV1600A)

[sha-ul]

By nature of wildcats, anyone who posts in this forum has already resigned themselves to having to reload - but there are tons of people who will now have access to a 300 Fireball-like cartridge. 85% of shooters don't reload at all. And LE/Military cannot load their own ammo.
Mr Silvers, I just ordered& received a barrel chambered for 300-221 from Shilen, any guesses on if this will be compatible with the 300blk ammo?

I was told by Shilen this was to be a no turn chamber

[rsilvers]

We did not try to make it incompatible with any 300-221 reamers but since 300-221 is a wildcat and they are not under an obligation to match any specific specs, I can't say with certainty. PTG archived their 300-221 reamers and only lists 300 AAC BLACKOUT reamers now.

[buffetdestroyer]

Rsilvers, out of curiosity how does your TiRant 9mm can meter on the 300 AAC Blackout with subs?
________
Ecigarettes (http://vaporizer.org/forum/electronic-cigarettes/)

[rsilvers]

I forget exactly, but the 762-SDN-6 was a bunch quieter and also the TiRant got hot very quickly with the 9 inch barrel and full power ammo and I was concerned. It may be much better with a 16 inch barrel and subsonic only and very fast powder, but I don't want to shoot dedicated subsonic. I gave up on the pistol can right away, after shooting it once.

[TheAlmightyBob]

I find it very interesting that this 300blk came out after someone told me I was lying when I said I could do 1/2" or better at 100 yards with subsonic 220gr sierra out of a short barrel Noveske. Anyone care to guess who it was or what board it was on?

[rsilvers]

Just post five 5 shot consecutive groups shot at 100 yards scanned on a flat bed scanner and if I was wrong I will apologize.

[LouBoyd]

Personally I'm much more interested in a 300 subsonic which can consistently shoot 1 MOA groups at 400 yards than a 300 subsonic which can consistently shoot 1/2 MOA at 100 yards. Vertical stringing increases with the square of the time of flight which is always more than the square of the distance. Wind deflection is also more than linear with distance.

What group size is acceptable at the target for the type of shooting and distance you use your 300(subsonic) for? No 300 subsonic I'm aware of is is likely to win benchrest matches.

[rsilvers]

Personally I am interested in not getting bullets stuck in the barrel because someone decided that if they use a 0.3085 freebore they could gain accuracy. I did get a hard to close action and then a stuck bullet on extraction in company's 300 Fireball barrel. I will cast the chamber, and I bet you anything they 'tried to make it accurate' with a tight throat. I am only interested in accuracy claims for non BS chambers. Reliability first.

[grey2112]

Personally I am interested in not getting bullets stuck in the barrel because someone decided that if they use a 0.3085 freebore they could gain accuracy. I did get a hard to close action and then a stuck bullet on extraction in company's 300 Fireball barrel. I will cast the chamber, and I bet you anything they 'tried to make it accurate' with a tight throat. I am only interested in accuracy claims for non BS chambers. Reliability first.

BIG +1 here - I've found that super-duper accuracy is wasted on most, but everyone appreciates reliability :nanabang:

[Spook]

BIG +1 here - I've found that super-duper accuracy is wasted on most, but everyone appreciates reliability :nanabang:

If that were the case they'ed have contests to see how many times in a row you could get your rifle to go "bang" as opposed to how many thousandths of and inch the bullet holes deviate from center to center.
A rifle you that cant hit what you aim it at is useless.

[rsilvers]

They do have contests to see how many times in a row a gun goes bang. It is called reliability testing by every govt agency which buys guns.

Reliability has to come first for self defense, police, and military guns.

Accuracy can come first for target guns.

[alorton]

It is all about application. If you are shooting bench rest competition then yes, accuracy is king. If you are using an SBR as an entry weapon reliability is king. You are both right. A rifle you can't hit with is useless and a rifle that won't fire reliably is useless. How you guage those against each other is all about what the rifle's intended purpose is.

What one man calls accurate another will not. For a Patrol rifle 4 MOA accuracy is more than sufficient to hit what I'm aiming at at any normal engagement distance for Police work. I would hardly call that good accuracy but for that application I would take a 4 MOA reliable rifle over a 1/2 MOA rifle that was finicky and had jamming issues when things weren't "just right". Conversely, if I'm shooting 1000 yard competition then I can live with a gun that has to have everything "just right" to function but shoots 1/2 MOA as a 4 MOA rifle would be useless for that application.

[Spook]

Reliability has to come first for self defense, police, and military guns.

If that were the case they'ed be shooting AK's.

I dont think anybodys thinking that they are going to frighten the enemy to death by missing them with regularity?
You and I both know that when it comes to government issue... its about money. Sometimes its about how much money, but as often as not its about who gets the money.

[alorton]

If that were the case they'ed be shooting AK's.

I dont think anybodys thinking that they are going to frighten the enemy to death by missing them with regularity?
You and I both know that when it comes to government issue... its about money. Sometimes its about how much money, but as often as not its about who gets the money.

While I'll agree that AK's are theoretically more reliable the question is what practical difference does that make? I mentioned earlier that I would take a reliable 4 MOA rifle over the 1/2 MOA finicky rifle. A reliable 4 MOA rifle sounds alot like an AK and if my choice for patrol was a 4 MOA AK or a 1/2 MOA AR that jammed occassionally I would choose the AK. Fortunately those aren't my only choices. If an AR will shoot 500 rounds without issues and an AK will shoot 1500 rounds without issues why would that affect my decision when my standard loadout for Patrol is 130 rounds? I've shot more than 500 rounds through several of my AR's and they get dirty but keep going. In the end I think a properly maintained AR is as reliable as an AK, the AK is just more forgiving of abuse.

There are lots of reasons the AR will always be more popular than the AK for Police work and it isn't about money since the AK would be cheaper. Caliber and ergonomics are a couple examples and accuracy is a factor as well, but not at the expense of reliability.

[rsilvers]

The AK may be 4 MOA capable, but when shooting it for real, with the sights they provide, it is probably 12 MOA.

What I mean about reliability has to come first, it making a 1911 super tight is inappropriate. Making a chamber to minimum dimensions is also inappropriate - for combat weapons.

[Spook]

While I'll agree that AK's are theoretically more reliable the question is what practical difference does that make? I mentioned earlier that I would take a reliable 4 MOA rifle over the 1/2 MOA finicky rifle. A reliable 4 MOA rifle sounds alot like an AK and if my choice for patrol was a 4 MOA AK or a 1/2 MOA AR that jammed occassionally I would choose the AK. Fortunately those aren't my only choices. If an AR will shoot 500 rounds without issues and an AK will shoot 1500 rounds without issues why would that affect my decision when my standard loadout for Patrol is 130 rounds? I've shot more than 500 rounds through several of my AR's and they get dirty but keep going. In the end I think a properly maintained AR is as reliable as an AK, the AK is just more forgiving of abuse.

There are lots of reasons the AR will always be more popular than the AK for Police work and it isn't about money since the AK would be cheaper. Caliber and ergonomics are a couple examples and accuracy is a factor as well, but not at the expense of reliability.

1- All the difference on earth if you're the one with the malfunctioning weapon.... Theoretically? please...

2-Because you wont know when in those 500 rounds it wont go "bang".... by the way...my "loadout" for driving back and forth to work is 500 rounds.(absolute truth) Please carry more than you're carrying. Not only would we all like to see you around for a while, but we may need you to protect someone we love.

Also... 500 rounds? seriously son, 500 rounds aint a popcorn fart. I hope you didnt stop then because your shoulder got sore :smile: Run that total up to 5 or 10 or 15 thousand and get back to me about theoretically.

Lastly...in the end something well maintained will usually run better than something not well maintained, but thanks for the update..... carefull not to bend your buffer tube, you'll only get the round thats in battery .... ever wonder why there are so many widgets and pistons and D-fenders and non rotating trigger pins available for your rifle? My guess is it'll be replaced before they get it right.

[Spook]

The AK may be 4 MOA capable, but when shooting it for real, with the sights they provide, it is probably 12 MOA.

What I mean about reliability has to come first, it making a 1911 super tight is inappropriate. Making a chamber to minimum dimensions is also inappropriate - for combat weapons.

So we could probably agree that accuracy is useless without reliability and reliability is useless without accuracy and durability is as important as either? :smile:

[LouBoyd]

So we could probably agree that accuracy is useless without reliability and reliability is useless without accuracy and durability is as important as either? :smile:

Hitting your intended target is what's really important. Reasons you might not achieve your intended goal include:

Firearm limitation:
poor accuracy
reliability (intermittent)
mechanical failure (not field repairable)
insufficient range
insufficient energy
poor sights
poor trigger
accidental discharge

Personal limitations:
flinching (muzzle blast and recoil)
ergonomics (match of firearm to your body)
estimating range and wind
speed (if target shoots back or can flee)
shooter strength vs firearm weight

Access limitations:
firearm and ammo cost
firearm and ammo availability
spousal approval


Government infringement:
regulatory limitations (own but not carry or shoot)
possession ban
purchase ban
import ban

Any one of those (and no doubt a few other things) can be a show stopper.

[TCCrewchief76]

Let's not forget "fog of battle". Nobody's a perfect shot under duress. Ever wonder why it takes so many shots to put down a bad guy? Because not every shot makes it to target. That's just a fact of life. I need to know that my shots are gonna make it on target, and I know that if my weapon stops working, I'm in a shitstorm of trouble until I get it resolved. I think we could really divide the "types" of weapons in this discussion into "offensive" and "defensive" type weapons. I cannot think of a better offensive weapon than a truly quiet one when I want the element of surprise. If I'm engaged, I'm already behind the eight-ball, and I need to have a weapon that isn't gonna leave my ass hanging out to dry. Ideally, accuracy and reliability must go hand-and-hand, and luckily, I can get both.

Kevin

[Alleycat]

All I know is that for more than a thousand dollars, is better be accurate and reliable.:grin:

[i8asquirrel]

I know that there is a copyright issue for different names ( 300 whisper/300/221 7.62 what ever) but can anybody give me the strait answer ? Is 300 blackout compatable with my Redding 300 whisper dies ....I already have a 300 whsiper that I am very pleased with on an AR platform and have a bolt gun in the works My gunsmith is waiting on a reamer from PTW . :sniper:

[robrob]

Nobody can give you a "straight answer" because no one knows.

[Scalce]

All I know is that for more than a thousand dollars, is better be accurate and reliable.:grin:

What he said.

[rsilvers]

The Redding is not 300 Whisper(R) but rather Redding's version of 30-221. There is no standard for 30-221 and so there is no way to know without comparing Redding's drawing to a 300 AAC BLACKOUT drawing. Only Redding can make that determination as only they have the specs for their die.

[i8asquirrel]

How about if somebody from say AAC published thet diminsions of the 300 blackout so we could all find out if we need more dies or to refinish chambers to make things uniform...everyone seems to be using political correct secret squirrel code instead of just saying " yep thats the same or no its totaly new" to my knowledge Hornady and Redding had been making 300 whisper dies and now Forester I think I read are making Blackout dies...........I am just trying to keep thing simple, I would like both my rifles to be the same ( I dont care what I windup calling the cartridge) :grin:

[Spook]

The Redding is not 300 Whisper(R) but rather Redding's version of 30-221. There is no standard for 30-221 and so there is no way to know without comparing Redding's drawing to a 300 AAC BLACKOUT drawing. Only Redding can make that determination as only they have the specs for their die.

There was a 300 Whisper drawing made for CIP a while back that would have standardized every thing,any idea why that one wasnt adopted?
Rumor was that Mr Jones had failed to re-register the "Whisper" trademark and it was open season.

[rsilvers]

Most trademarks are not registered. In fact the TM symbol you see all the time specifically means a non-registered trademark. SAAMI never would have accepted Whisper as the name unless SSK provided a document saying it was free for everyone to use.

Also the name implies quiet, which means suppressed, and I think the future of this concept is primarily full power ammo. Time will tell when we see the split in ammo sales between subsonic and supersonic.

So why not name it 300 Fireball? Two reasons... One is that it implies bright flash of light and loud. The other is that there were too many wildcat chambers kicking around with that name, and using that name might be considered to imply that the ammo was safe to fire in all of them.

So a completely new name was needed.

[rsilvers]

The headspace of CIP 300 Whisper(TM) overlaps with 300 AAC BLACKOUT. The most they ever differ is by about 0.0004 inches.

There is more freebore in 300 AAC BLACKOUT, which was needed to allow for a 220 or 240 MK to be loaded to full magazine length and not jam the rifling. It also allows for higher velocity with any bullet, as you can sometimes use more powder before you hit the max pressure limits. Further, CIP 300 Whisper has a 3500 BAR (51,763 psi) max pressure and 300 AAC BLACKOUT is 55,000 PSI - though CIP does not measure the exact same way so it is hard to know how that translates.

[Mike Bell]

Stupid question...can somebody refreash my memory on "CIP" I cant remember what it is....:confused:

[rsilvers]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Commission_Internationale_Permanente_pour_l'Epreuv e_des_Armes_%C3%A0_Feu_Portatives

[Mike Bell]

Thanks, I should have just looked it up because I was thinking of C.U.P.

[rsilvers]

http://www.silencertalk.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=128&t=64797

[carcass]

I realize this is a somewhat older thread but I thought I'd ask here.


Suggested subsonic load:

• R-P 300 AAC BLACKOUT brass
• Remington 7.5 primers
• 11.2 grains of AA 1680 powder
• Case length is 1.368 +0.000 -0.020
• Sierra 220 MK loaded to 2.089 OAL (this length is optimal for reliable feeding from USGI magazines)
• Chamber pressure 21,100 psi.

What barrel length will result in this being subsonic? I have a 7.5" barrel that I chambered for "300 Fireball" or whatever PTG calls their reamer, and I have good reliability with subsonic operation and F/A cycling in an M4 (carbine stock tube with standard recoil buffer) with 9.2 grains of Lilgun, 1.085 OAL, with a chamber pressure of about 33kpsig.

I don't have any 1680 lying around but would like to try this load, but only if it'll work in my short barrel on F/A. BTW, Quickload calculates my load to result in about 8700 psig bore pressure at the gas port position, which is just enough to allow reliable operation. QL calculates your listed load at 8500 psig, but with lower efficiency of powder burn (80% vs 97%). The additional mass of powder (gas) at that lower pressure may provide enough momentum to operate the action. The weird thing is that you state chamber pressure of your load at 21.1kpsig, but QL calculates it at 39kpsig. Any idea what the discrepancy is? Is QL not good at calculating at these relatively small case volumes?

Thanks for any info, and I hope I haven't missed an answer to this that someone already posted.

[rsilvers]

A1680 will cycle far more easily than Lil-Gun at the same bullet velocity.

QuickLoad with the 300-221 chamber?

300 AAC BLACKOUT has lower pressure than 300-221. The longer throat makes it act as if it had a larger powder capacity.

You need a chronograph and have to set the powder to be in the 950-1020 range with your upper.


Suggested subsonic load:

• R-P 300 AAC BLACKOUT brass
• Remington 7.5 primers
• 11.2 - 11.6 grains of A1680 powder (Adjust powder charge as needed. Factory ammo is 1010 fps for 16" barrel)
• Case length is 1.368 +0.000 -0.020
• Sierra 220 MK loaded to 2.089 OAL (this length is optimal for reliable feeding from USGI magazines)
• Chamber pressure 21,100 psi.

[carcass]

Thanks for the reply!

A1680 will cycle far more easily than Lil-Gun at the same bullet velocity.

is that because of the increased mass of gas?

QuickLoad with the 300-221 chamber?

yes, i don't think they have the blackout chamber in my version of the software

300 AAC BLACKOUT has lower pressure than 300-221. The longer throat makes it act as if it had a larger powder capacity.

I see.

You need a chronograph and have to set the powder to be in the 950-1020 range with your upper.

Yeah, to build this load I started off making sure feeding was reliable by playing with the OAL & dummies. Then I worked on getting the velocity where I wanted it and then tweaked for reliability on F/A.

Suggested subsonic load:

• R-P 300 AAC BLACKOUT brass
• Remington 7.5 primers
• 11.2 - 11.6 grains of A1680 powder (Adjust powder charge as needed. Factory ammo is 1010 fps for 16" barrel)
• Case length is 1.368 +0.000 -0.020
• Sierra 220 MK loaded to 2.089 OAL (this length is optimal for reliable feeding from USGI magazines)
• Chamber pressure 21,100 psi.

Thanks for the info, I'll have to buy a lbm of 1680.

Two other questions:

1. If I were to buy a bunch of Blackout brass, and resize it to the 300-221 spec with my dies, would it be reliable in a PTG 300-221 chamber?

2. If I were to "touch up" my 300-221 chambers with a new Blackout reamer, would that work, or would there be "missing metal" somewhere that the blackout spec requires?

[Retooferab]

11.2 gns was to fast in my 10.5" ar. Mine needed about 10.4 - .6 gns to stay sub-sonic. It is the 300-221 WTFever.

[rsilvers]

11.2 gns was to fast in my 10.5" ar. Mine needed about 10.4 - .6 gns to stay sub-sonic. It is the 300-221 WTFever.

Probably because the 330-221 chamber makes higher pressure.

[rsilvers]

Two other questions:

1. If I were to buy a bunch of Blackout brass, and resize it to the 300-221 spec with my dies, would it be reliable in a PTG 300-221 chamber?

2. If I were to "touch up" my 300-221 chambers with a new Blackout reamer, would that work, or would there be "missing metal" somewhere that the blackout spec requires?

1. I don't see any reason to resize them.

2. It should work.

[Retooferab]

Where is that brass for sale?

[rsilvers]

Some was just shipped to MidwayUSA so it may be on their website soon. AAC also sells it if you call. No longer in stock at the moment.

[rsilvers]

http://img198.imageshack.us/img198/922/300blk150bergergroup.jpg

[kdiver58]

I have three 300 fireball whatever you want to call them. p320 and I have both posted loads over the years. I'm sold on 1680 and have a subsonic load I use in my AR that cycles without me having to change springs or move the gas port. I've run 1000's of them through my Cyclone. I for one am glad that someone is making a standard and putting it out there for people to use. I'm going to change all of my guns to that standard and call it good. I can't wait to try some. As far as the crimped primers I've used lake city 5.56 brass for so many years making my 300w brass I'm used to running brass through my dillon the first time around. It's all good ..

[rsilvers]

http://www.midwayusa.com/Product/899294/sierra-matchking-bullets-300-aac-blackout-308-diameter-125-grain-open-tip-match-otm-box-of-100-bulk-packaged

http://www.midwayusa.com/Product/915404/sierra-matchking-bullets-300-aac-blackout-308-diameter-125-grain-open-tip-match-otm-box-of-500