What scope do you use for .300 Whisper?

[Cornholio]

Probably some sort of mil-dot reticle scope? What works best for you? I'm trying to figure out what would be the most effective scope for use on a suppressed 1 in 8" Whisper, which will be used with mostly subsonic but some supersonic loads and at any range from 25yds to 300+.

[Cornholio]

Don't all of you answer at once!!!

[cherokee]

I use a ACOG TA01NSN scope. It works great with the 300 Whisper.

[Cornholio]

Thanks, cherokee. Does it work well for the dramatic bullet drop between supersonic light loads and heavy subsonics?

[jripper]

I use a bushnell holosight II. However, I can not say that it is ideal for changing from super sonic to sub sonics. Check Horus vision. Horus uses a grid system, and give computer software with their scopes that tell you what grid to use, at what distance. My friend has one he uses for his long range rifle, and can compensate from 100 to 500 yards without changing his settings.
They may have something that would work for you.

Joel

[Murmur]

Hi there,
I'm having a custom mildot reticle installed on my 2.5-8x36 leupold & ballistically matched for subsonic 240gr Sierra MK's to give 50yard hold points out to 300 yards. Should make for accurate field shots when combined with my lazer range finder.

[Cornholio]

Murmur, how much is that modification going to cost?

Joel, thanks for the suggestion. I looked through a Horus Vision once, and the reticle was far too busy for me. And far too expensive. But that probably really would work.

[SSN653]

My suggestion is that you get a scope like the Leupold Long Range Tactical with M1 knobs and a mildot reticule.

With the 300 Whisper (subsonic) 220 gr SMK you will need from 36 to 39 MOA depending on atmospherics to accurately engage a 300 yd target.

[Cornholio]

I'm thinking of getting the SWFA Super Sniper in 10x for $299.

[d-mon]

Also, having customs dots being set up on your reticle at different ranges can be good, I am not sure of the reliability of the system when atmospheric conditions changes, specialy at the longuest ranges (past 150yards).

I am playing with a 22lr ( with silencer and sub ammo) up to 200 yards, and I find that an accurate scope with precise and positive 1/4moa knobs + a laser rangefinder are doing very well. But I can have a big difference past 80 yards between a warm summer (25 degres C) and winter (+5 degrees C).

I do not know how the conditions changes can affect a larger whisper projectile but doing some tests before investing in a reticle that could become useless later seems a good idea.

D-mon

[John3]

I just got my Whisper upper with 10" barrel, and have been researching scopes and reticles. The .300 Whisper is difficult because it drops so quickly at sub-sonic velocities. It does have a very linear drop curve, though.

The best theoretical solution I have found for a reticle is the new Leupold SPR (Special Purpose Reticle). This offers Mil-dot marks at 2.5 mil intervals all the way out to 15 mils (vs. 1 mil intervals out to 5 mils in a standard Mil Dot scope). This gives you 215" (18 feet!) of drop path in the reticle.

According to my Oehler Ballistic Explorer program, the 2 1/2 mil marks closely match the 50 yard drop points for Corbon 220gr sub-sonic, all the way out to 400 yards, when sighted in with a 90 yard zero (this puts you 2.5" high at 50 yards, and 1.5" low at 100 yards). You could also zero at 100 yards, but this add a few inches of error at longer ranges.

The only problem with this reticle is that it is available as standard on just 2 Leupold scopes - the Mark 4 1.5-5x20 PR and MR models. Leupold will add it to any Mark 4 or Vari-X III scope for about $200 in their custom shop.

The advantages of this SPR reticle from Leupold are (in theory):

+ 2.5 Mil-dot Aiming marks calibrate to within 2.5" for Corbon 220gr sub-sonic load out to 400 yards

+ Max 2.5" error at every range can probably be corrected to < 1" error by slight power selector adjustment

+ 15 mils of drop marks instead of the standard 5 mils (yields Whisper aiming points out to 400 yards)

+ Has excellent range estimating capabilities on man-sized targets

+ Illuminated Reticle is possible with Custom Shop add of this reticle to illuminated scope

+ Even with the custom shop add, it's an all-Leupold product with single-source lifetime warranty

+ Re-usable/re-sellable for standard rifle calibers (Leupold pitches the SPR reticle for use with .223 and .308)

+ Can recalculate drop tables and use the 2 1/2 mil marks with super-sonic/any .300 Whisper loads

The disadvantages are:

- Expensive, about $200 to add SPR reticle in Leupold custom shop (but competitive with Premier Reticles prices)

- Needs range testing to confirm drop calculations

- Doesn't really work as well as 1 mil dots for standard rifle calibers or super-sonic Whisper loads


I have bought a used Mark 4 1.5-5x20 PR scope on eBay in order to test out the drop points with this reticle, and will post results when available. If this works, my plan is to buy a VX-III 4.5-14x50 Illuminated scope (#54922), send it to the Leupold Custom Shop for installation of the SPR reticle, and re-sell the low-power scope on eBay. I don't think you need the Target Knob version since the reticle should give you all your drops, at least for 220gr sub-sonic. I hate those things, anyway, since I always forget to reset them.

Here's the scope I bought used ($360) for testing:
http://www.leupold.com/products/tactical_products/Mark_4_1_5-5x20mm_PR.htm

And, here's the SPR reticle:
http://www.leupold.com/products/tactical_products/reticles_SPR.htm

One last thought - the .300 Whisper 220gr sub-sonic at 400 yards still has more energy than a 45 acp at point blank range. I like to shoot gongs and varmints at long ranges. Even though 300 yards is usually considered the max, I believe that with a laser range finder, the right scope and a 1MOA rifle, you can make consistent hits in a 8" circle at 400 yards.

I apologize for the extended "Scope Nerd" discussion above, but thought some of you might find this useful.

[Cornholio]

John3,

I found your post EXTREMELY useful. I eagerly await your follow-up.

Before I read your post about the SPR reticle, I was thinking of an IOR scope with the MP-8 reticle.

[Quarterbore]

I agree... great post... please let us know how that works out as I am pretty much a click counter but with this round that can get to be a PITA in a hurry!

[Artful]

If this works it sounds like what I will be needing, when it comes time to sell off your 1.4x5 test scope let us know as I don't want any more power then that in a scope for shooting a shorter range caliber.

[John3]

I am getting 4 MOA groups with my new SSK Whisper upper, and won't be able to confirm the data on the Leupold SPR reticle until I fix my accuracy problem. This may take a few weeks if I have to send the upper back to SSK.

I did take a few off-hand potshots today at my 200 yard steel gong, and hit it every time using the predicted aiming mark (5 mils, bottom of circle in SPR reticle).

[Cornholio]

Any updates, John?

[MMA10mm]

Well, I've always thought of the 300Whisp. as a short- to medium-range caliber. I've never thought of shooting it past 150-200yds. I like to look at it as the best round for the M-4 Carbine (and shorter) versions of the AR-15/M-16 platform for CQB. Something that hits hard, penetrates deep, is suppressible, and actually effective vs. that miserable 5.56mm that has all the power of a 22WMR out of the short-barrelled guns... Therefore, I've been very happy with an Aimpoint Comp II w/ the 12moa triangle. The tip of the triangle will be zeroed for about 85 yards for "precision" work from 50-130 yards or so, and for closer shots, one need only put the triangle on the torso of the bad guy and squeeze the trigger.

However, this thread has got me thinking that it might be interesting to play around with a higher-powered scope, such as the Leupold mentioned above. That would be quite impressive to be able to put suppressed 300 W. shots on a man-sized target at 300+ yards.

[d-mon]

Do you have a need of killing somebody? Because it seems that you do not see any other use of that caliber (hunting, plinking). I find having that mentality a bit silly.

ND

[Artful]

Do you have a need of killing somebody? Because it seems that you do not see any other use of that caliber (hunting, plinking). I find having that mentality a bit silly.

ND

Don't know about him, but since moving to a big city and 9/11 terrorist attack and other news items from around the world I am taking more interest in Human shaped targets than Deer shaped targets.

I just got back from where I used to live where you don't lock doors and can still leave the keys in the car when you go in for lunch - people waving at people every one remembering me...though I forgot many names I was forgiven.... I live in a different world than the one I left. Times are a changing ....

[d-mon]

I can understand your fear. But do you reaslly think that Arizona will be the next target of El quada?

ND

[Cornholio]

We have Palo Verde nuclear power plant and a metric buttload of tonks swimming across the border. Your British way of thinking doesn't apply here...

[d-mon]

Even worse, I am french!!! :D

[d-mon]

And we have nuclear power plants over there as well, and many, many more North African, and Arabic than you could imagine (most of them are very nice as well), and that makes the task of finding terrorist even harder.

ND

[Cornholio]

That sucks. I'd hang myself if I had to live amongst that many camel jockies.

[d-mon]

Well, you should travel a bit in North africa and egypt, And you would discover some very nice people,fantastic food and different culture.

ND

[MGP]

I am going to buy a VX-I 4-12x40 from premier retical and have them install the RC-600 check it out

http://www.premierreticles.com/index.php?uid=5465&page=1869&main=1

[Cheeks]

I plan on using the Leupold 3.5x10x40 LR M3. I filed the stop off the knob and use a 30 moa badger base. This should give me about 60-70 moa adjustment from zero. The 1moa clicks are the ticket I think.

[MMA10mm]

Do you have a need of killing somebody? Because it seems that you do not see any other use of that caliber (hunting, plinking). I find having that mentality a bit silly.

ND
Some people do have a need, sometimes an urgent need, to kill others. Sorry if that mentality is a "bit silly."

The Whisper, for me, is the ultimate combat carbine round, so yes, I guess you could say I have a bent towards viewing the Whisper as a round whose main purpose is killing another person. Generally, we call them: "the enemy".

The 6.8x43 SPC is my favorite general-purpose assault rifle round, meaning, it is a good round for killing people, too.

Truth be known, the radio is generally the biggest/best killer, as artillery and/or air support is a much better method than small arms. Also, an M2 .50-cal or Mk-19 40mm are still preferable over small arms, but, if small arms are what is needed for the job or at hand, then I like the two calibers above.

Since my home is in a place where I can own more than one gun, I do tend to have weapons that specialize for certain tasks.

For plinking, I generally use a 22 lr.

For hunting, I like the 444 Marlin for short-medium range, and a 7mm Dakota for long-range tasks.

However, that doesn't mean that the 300 and 6.8 couldn't be used for hunting/plinking, and the 444, the 7mm, and certainly the 22, could be used for killing people... I just have my "silly" preferences as outlined above.

[Code Red]

I use a Shepherd 6x18 V2 on my suppresed .308 sniper rifle. It has a dual reticle rang finding and bullet drop compensating system that works for both super and subsonic loads. It is set up for the supersonic loads but with a day on the range you can sight in your rifle with the sub ammo and only have to adjust for windage. Keep a log book of what range circle to use for your hold over and you can quickly switch between sub and supersonic ammo with no loss of zero. I have placed many shots at 1000+ meters with M118LR ammo and many shots with 170gr sub ammo at 400+ meters useing this scope. I plan on useing a Shepherd 3x10 P2 on my 300 whisper. You can get this scope that is calibrated for the 7.62X39 wich has identicle ballistics to the 300 whisper for supersonic loads. Check them out at www.shepherdscopes.com

[Wrangler]

Code Red, why do I get the feeling you are a really mean mother who knows his craft?

[Code Red]

A combonation of Army and Navy Special Forces taught me all that I know and I am willing to learn all that I can and share all that I know. I am new to quarterbore and figured I would say HI.

[Wrangler]

So, you are familiar with the military version of the Remington 700 sniper rifle in 308 I assume.

[Code Red]

Yes, the M24 and the M40. I prefer the M24, I like the feel of the stock, it is more comfortable to use.

[Wrangler]

I always wondered why they would change a good thing but I guess it is just a matter of personal choice.

[keith__davis]

I started with a leupold scope 3.5x10x40 mil-dot first focal plane M3 knobs, MOA clicks not .25 MOA clicks because of the big drop of the 300 whisper, worked up my loads one 150gr supersonic (2200 FPS) and a 240gr subsonic (1050 FPS). I worked up all my data via my RCBS and Seirra programs. Than had Premier Reticle cut me a cam Knob for the scope with the supersonic data on the bottom have and subsonic data on the upper have. The two data is off set to line them up. So i can have a gun zeroed and cam for supersonic than add silencer and jump up to the subsonic data and turm cam to range and now zeroed for subsonic, than take silencer go back to supersonic ammo and turn range on lower half of cam to range and zeroed again for supersonic ammo. Works great i drop a PVS 22 in the front of the scope and than I'm ready for the night. Only point i would say is, with range having to be right on with the subsonic loads go with the first focal plane scope to make milling easy on you for those shorter ranges, I for one use lazer range finder but you always don't have time. Also don't kid yourself in subsonic loads limit yourself to 300 meters. The leupold scope i use has 56 MOA in one full turn that will get you well pass 300 meters but i limit myself to 300 meters and it is broken down into 25 meters marks. This can be easily done with any scope with target knobs and don't have to have premier reticle do it. I have worked up the data and printed it out on paper with my Cad program and used clear scotts tape to put it on my knob, than just zero and than loosen the knob and line up range you zeroed at and your zeroed. Hope this helps

[GlockandRoll]

I use a Shepherd 6x18 V2 on my suppresed .308 sniper rifle. It has a dual reticle rang finding and bullet drop compensating system that works for both super and subsonic loads. It is set up for the supersonic loads but with a day on the range you can sight in your rifle with the sub ammo and only have to adjust for windage. Keep a log book of what range circle to use for your hold over and you can quickly switch between sub and supersonic ammo with no loss of zero. I have placed many shots at 1000+ meters with M118LR ammo and many shots with 170gr sub ammo at 400+ meters useing this scope. I plan on useing a Shepherd 3x10 P2 on my 300 whisper. You can get this scope that is calibrated for the 7.62X39 wich has identicle ballistics to the 300 whisper for supersonic loads. Check them out at www.shepherdscopes.com


Shepherd scopes are garbage... the concept is great but they just don’t hold up well. I have had 2 and their customer service and reliability failings are the reason that I don’t recommend using them. I had one that had to be re-zero'd every 5th shot. It couldn't even take the abuse of the .308. They don’t have any idea what it takes to build a tactical scope and even though, it is a great concept, the hold-over only works as an estimation ONLY and it still does no good if you don’t have the scope level... and since there isn't an internal one like the SA Govt models, it's really difficult.

For what they cost, I think you would be better off with an SWFA Super Sniper, I've got a 16x and 10x side parallax model and love them... in fact I was surprised at how well the 16x looked at 400 yard steel compared to my leupy 6.5x20 Mk4 LR/T scope, and it's nearly 1/3rd the price.

Learn how to use the Mil-DOT method, and spend some time away from a range, on open range, trying to plink at 600-800-1100 yards, etc. You’ll find out how important a bubble level on your scope base and a quickly adjustable windage knob is.

Navy seal my arse~

[Code Red]

Hello GlockandRoll.
I never said that I was a Navy Seal; just raised by one. I was in the Army and also trained with the Navy Seals. As far as the Mil Dot goes, they are tried and true but very slow if you don't have a second person working out the calculations for range and hold over. I have no problem with them at all. As far the the Shepherd being garbage that is just a matter of opinion. I have used them in the field and never lost zero. It has functioned without a problem in temperatures from -15 to +130. My rifle has been banged around and I have never had a problem with the scope. The only thing that I wish it did have was a side focus. Just like anything that you buy, you will have better luck with one over the other and everybody will make a lemon now and again. I could sit here and tell you horer stories about Leupolds M3A that are standard on the M24 and problems that I have had with them but is doesn't make them junk. At a cost of $1300 for the M3A compared to $700 for my V2, I have had better results from my Shepherd. As far as a bubble level on your scope and or base I totaly agree with you. It will save you a lot of trouble and headache if you have them. I have no experiance with the Super Sniper scope so I can't say much about them, just that I have not heard anything bad about them. I have heard that they are fairly inexpensive for what you get.

[keith__davis]

Code Red, Glockandroll call you on it about the navy now i will on the army, what special forces training and what trouble have you had with the M3A, the only problem i have ever seen with a M3A is untrained people screwing with it, and what was your class number for SFQC and Group ??

[Code Red]

Hey Keith.
I have had a M3A take minor but a typical side impact and had the elevation recticle let loose at a very inopportune time. I have also seen all three of the turrets wear out, mostly the focus. I chalk it up to being used a lot and just some defective parts. Not that they are junk because they are not, just like I said that all people sometimes make a lemon. I have used them and other scopes and I have my preference. As far as training I said that I was traind by both Army and Navy SF. I was not part of a team. I was part of a SF experiment in the Amy. I worked with them and as one of them but I was not designated as a SF soldier. I had not completed Robin Sage so there for I was not a Green Beret and do not claim to be. My father was a Navy Seal. He was a sniper for IUWG 1/3 SEACOBRAS. He served three tours in Nam and was ranked as the Navy's top sniper in Viet Nam. I spent 10yrs training with my father and his team members.
You seem to know about SFQC and its workings so what is your storie?
I would love to chat more about it, my e-mail is cody.e.smith@us.army.mil if you are interested.