Dillon form and trim die for 300 fireball using RT1200

[TCCrewchief76]

Does Dillon make these? If not, what needs to be modified to make it work?

Kevin

[hitman49]

Contact CH4D. They make the Trim die.

[TCCrewchief76]

Any idea what they are charging for that die?

[Hoser]

CH4D makes the die and it isnt expensive, under $50 if I remember, but you might need to machine off some of the toolhead to allow the chips to be sucked away.

I milled about .350 off my 1050 toolhead to make it work.

[Medic650]

You will have to machine a tool head for the hose attatchment to work. If you don't already have a RT1200, the Rapid Trim for 7.62x39 has a longer trimmer shaft and die and will work on unmodified toolhead. I beleive the 7.62x39 trim die needs to be shortened al little to trim brass to right length.

[jonblack]

Yes, CH4D. I have one and they are under $60. Yes, you have to machine the toolhead.

jonblack

[gdgreg]

or you can modify a .308 trim dies from dillon.

[TCCrewchief76]

Damn. How far does your 300 Whisper brass protrude into the window on your CH4D die? Mine doesn't even make it into the window. I think they forgot to run the counterbore for the trimmer shaft deep enough so that the brass could be trimmed. My brass is 1.355 for reference...

Kevin

[Hoser]

Mine comes in about .200 or so.

[Spanners]

In reading all the 1200 trimmer threads, am I correc tin thinking that you need to mod a toolhead to use the std 1200 trimmer with a CH4D die, or you can buy the 7.62x39 1200 trimmer?

Is the x39 trimmer compatible with other Dillon dies or is it solely for x39 because of extended shaft?

I dont want to end up with a trimmer thats for 1 caliber only

[Medic650]

Dillon told me the 7.62x39 trimmer was could only be used for that one. I'ld contact Dillon and make sure that hasn't changed though.

[TCCrewchief76]

I ended up buying an extended Redding shellholder and using my Rockchucker for making my Fireball brass. Sucks, but at least I can do it.

Kevin

[Spanners]

I need to run it in a Dillon 650 but dont want a trimmer only for Whisper cases.

Am i right in thinking that modding a tool head and using a CH4D die will allow a std trimmer to be used??

[Hoser]

You do need to mod the toolhead.

I hated chopping on a 1050 toolhead, but it was for the greater good.

[Spanners]

You do need to mod the toolhead.

I hated chopping on a 1050 toolhead, but it was for the greater good.

For use with a std trimmer and CH die or a x39 trimmer setup?

[thehouseproduct]

Can anyone verify if the CH die with a standard trimmer works in a Hornady LNL AP or will i need an extended shell holder and my single stage?

[TCCrewchief76]

The CH4D die will not work with the standard trimmer and Hornady LNL. This is the EXACT setup I have, and had to go with the Redding extended shellholder and my RCBS Rockchucker press for my brass forming operation.

Kevin

[thehouseproduct]

The CH4D die will not work with the standard trimmer and Hornady LNL. This is the EXACT setup I have, and had to go with the Redding extended shellholder and my RCBS Rockchucker press for my brass forming operation.

Kevin

That's a bummer. I had these grand dreams of progressive case forming with lube dies and all kinds of wonderment.:mad:

[1andy2]

I've got a 1050 and the ch4d trim die, but I'm not sure how much to machine off the top of the tool head.

Do I need to take .350" off the entire top or just enough for clearance for the plastic vacuum attachment around one of the stations?

Also... does that .350" account for leaving threads exposed on the die for the knurled lock nut to engage?

[Mike Bell]

pictures of yalls set up would be nice...:o

[TCCrewchief76]

That's a bummer. I had these grand dreams of progressive case forming with lube dies and all kinds of wonderment.:mad:

You and me both. I was hoping for the proverbial "poop through a goose" rate of forming brass.

Kevin

[Hoser]

Effectively destroying a Dillon 1050 toolhead isnt a cheap decision. The trimmer and form die are not cheap either.

Then when you factor in the cost a new trimmer every couple months and new carbide trimmer blades every 10-15K pcs or a *single* piece of steel cased brass, it gets even worse.

There is a reason why I am kinda picky when I say processed/sized brass will not work. Every trimmer I have killed went that way. And it takes under a second or two.

But it did give me an excuse to buy another 1050.

http://i890.photobucket.com/albums/ac105/puebloshooter/ReladingRoom2.jpg

http://i890.photobucket.com/albums/ac105/puebloshooter/ReloadingRoom.jpg

[Mike Bell]

:eek::eek::eek::eek::eek::eek::eek:



MAN CAVE Heaven!!!!!!




:nanabang::nanabang::nanabang::nanabang:

[TCCrewchief76]

This is the reloading equivalent to Charlton Heston's gun collection...

Kevin

"Thou shalt not covet"...

"Thou shalt not covet"...

"Thou shalt not covet"...

[1andy2]

now that's a reloading room.

I've got a RCBS Jr, an old Pacific semi-progressive shotgun press, and an older dillon 1050.

And it looks like I'm about buy a new tool head for the 1050 to be the sacrificial lamb for my .300 whisper trim die. Yeah, $190 seems kind of excessive, but I've got plenty of good .300 whisper candidates...


Hoser, how did a single steel case destroy your trim die? If it just galled the neck or something, you might try chucking the die up in a lathe and polishing it with some fine emory cloth in a slotted dowel. At least, that's what the guy over at CH4D suggested.

[Hoser]

Hoser, how did a single steel case destroy your trim die? If it just galled the neck or something, you might try chucking the die up in a lathe and polishing it with some fine emory cloth in a slotted dowel. At least, that's what the guy over at CH4D suggested.

Steel cased crap make short work of the cutter blade. The trimmer bogs down, but it does not kill it.

Things like that are why I have not had the guts to hook up a motor to my 1050 for processing brass. I can keep an eye on every piece of brass and I can feel how each one cuts. Most of the bad ones get culled by feel while forming. After they come out of the tumbler I inspect them all and usually dont find very many.

[Garrett]

Effectively destroying a Dillon 1050 toolhead isnt a cheap decision...
The pictures of your loading bench are nice and all, but how about some close-ups of what you had to modify on the toolhead / shellplate to get the .300W trimmer to work?

I'm planning on getting a Dillon trimmer in the near future, and making .300W brass on my 650 is one of the primary reasons.

Thanks.

[robrob]

We're kind of asking a businessman to divulge his manufacturing secrets here. I understand if we don't get detailed pics and a how-to...

[Garrett]

We're kind of asking a businessman to divulge his manufacturing secrets here. I understand if we don't get detailed pics and a how-to...

Then having not seen the dies (or the Dillon trimmer for that matter), I may have misunderstood. I assumed what you get is a sizing die and a set of cutters, and that to use them you have to modify your own toolhead and/or shellplate.

Hence, me wanting to know what needs to be done, what works, not reinvent the wheel, etc.

If someone sells a complete setup, I'm good with that too.

[1andy2]

Honestly, I'm probably just going to take my new toolhead when it comes in along with the trim die, motor, and vacuum attachment down to the local machinist in town and work with him on it.

He's got better measuring equipment than I do, anyways.


As far as automation, I just got done hacking up a treadmill to run my dillon, but I've been doing hand sorts before loading the case feed hopper. Not too worried about burning up a cutter.

[thehouseproduct]

One more quick question about the CH die, is it adjusted like the standard Dillon trim dies? Screw it down till it touches the shell plate and then back off a quarter turn?

[1andy2]

good question.

one way to find out would be to do that, adjust the motor depth, run a case through, then measure the neck length and compare it to spec.

Of course, I've heard some pretty wildly ranging numbers on what spec neck length is.

[Spanners]

So the Std Dillon 1200 with CH4D die and a modded 650 toolhead is the combo

ie NOT the 7.62x39 trimmer which is specific to that case only?

[OSUCowboy8]

Tag for future info...

[jonblack]

So the Std Dillon 1200 with CH4D die and a modded 650 toolhead is the combo

ie NOT the 7.62x39 trimmer which is specific to that case only?

Yes, Spanners. Use the standard Dillon trimmer motor (so you can trim other calibers later) and modify a $25 toolhead to accommodate the CH4D 300 Whisper trim die.

jonblack

[Spanners]

Yes, Spanners. Use the standard Dillon trimmer motor (so you can trim other calibers later) and modify a $25 toolhead to accommodate the CH4D 300 Whisper trim die.

jonblack

Cheers
Do you have a part number or a link - I cant find it on their site.

And then I just have to get CH4D to ship to New Zealandisatn :rolleyes:

[Medic650]

Does anyone have a picture of how they modified a Dillon 550 or 650 toolhead? When I screw in my CH4D die it looks like I would have to mill off about 1/2 the thickness of the tool head to put on the vac attatchment.
.

[grlflh]

Second for pictures of the modadied 650tool head

[Spanners]

ANyone able to confirm the amount to be milled off 550 or 650 tool head?

[Notar]

If you mill down to the flange, more than 1/2 of the trim die window is above the tool head. The 650 with the deck cut works great with the vacuum attachment.

https://sites.google.com/site/xr650rsale/_/rsrc/1305255836360/home/pic_02/650_Toolhead_Milled_01.jpg

The 550, if you cut the entire deck down, the other dies positions are hard to use, and there is not much room for die lock nuts under the press due to the indexer. A pocket cut down to the flange works, and then a 1/4 pocket under that station so you can place the trim die lock nut under the toolhead. I've compared many different 550's and some had a 1/4 inch difference in clearance between the bottom of the toolhead and the indexer.

https://sites.google.com/site/xr650rsale/_/rsrc/1308101970614/home/pic_02/550TH_09.jpg

These for the 650 or 550 are $50 plus shipping.

Once you set up for trimming, take care of your Motor, cutting the blackout make LOTS of heat.

[Hoser]

Once you set up for trimming, take care of your Motor, cutting the blackout make LOTS of heat.

I go through a motor about every 20-25,000 rounds. The brushes go out before the motor. They are an easy fix.

Keep a sharp trimmer blade in there to ease the load on the trimmer.

Avoid trimming nickel and steel cases... The nickel dulls the blade in a hurry and steel, well you can guess.

[jonblack]

Hoser

I wondered if you can help me with a problem I am having forming 300 whisper brass with the CH4D trim die. The problem is that my brass "chips" are not curls or chips, rather they are long strings of brass which quickly bind around the shaft of the trimmer.

The method I use to get actual chips to form is to give a very high feed rate so that curling is induced and the brass breaks into chips. I'm nervous about this. I would rather go slower than faster.

Can you tell me more about your feed rate or method to produce the proper chips?

Finally, can you elaborate on the issues that result in a burnt out motor and give me some pointers on how to avoid burning mine out?

Thank you very much for your attention to my questions.

jonblack

[thehouseproduct]

I use a vacuum dedicated to the trimmer to start, everything wound up without it. I also find that I feed it in there pretty fast. I don't really like it either. I find that I need to pretty much rely on Dillon's warranty to cover the trimmer. I have done a couple thousand 300 Whisper cases and have no real issues yet.

[BachelorJack]

Obviously not hoser. But I am producing 40-50k pieces a week, every week. No idea how much he is producing. I should be in the top three if not the top for production though.

Doesn't matter what you do, the trimmer will go. Have yet to have one make it past 40k pieces. At any given point I have 11 in rotation with 3 super 1050's. Do the math on that. Expensive.

Dillon has been good about taking care of them if they are under warranty. And after having gone through 20 trimmers or more I can tell you a few things.

1. Not all trimmers are the same. Some just suck.
2. The older out of warranty trimmers seem to last longer than the new ones still under the 1 year warranty. Only difference I can tell is the bearing assemblies.
3. Have yet to have brushes go before the trimmer itself. Failure is always in the front bushing or induced by it. Usually bushing goes and causes motor to slow down noticeably. Or bushing goes locking up motor and burning up armature. Upon diss-assembly the bearings and lube are just burnt up. Most of the time I find zero brass has made it inside the assembly. Seems they can't take the heat generated for excessive periods of time. Yes, the front bearing pack would be exposed to more heat than the rearmost due to its proximity to the friction source.
4. My motors have all lasted longer than the number stated by hoser above. By a decent bit. Except for the ones who failed at some point under 5k. Had one motor make it less than 100x. Only way to get this experience is to buy a pile of new motors and see for yourself.

I see guys selling brass dirt cheap (~$100/k). Those guys haven't made enough to burn up a trimmer yet. Makes me laugh a little. Can't wait to see how long they continue selling at those prices after they eat the cost of a trimmer or two, and have to overhaul their press a few times. As was mentioned, the dillon cutters are expensive and have to be amortized in.

There are obviously some tricks to keep the trimmer from getting wound up with shavings. There seem to be ideal throughput numbers and corresponding CFM ratings needed for the vacuum. And my three machines seem to agree with the numbers I've got. Not much value unless you have the appropriate hardware to verify such things with though.

[jonblack]

BatchelorJack

Thank you for taking the time to respond. It seems like you have a great deal of experience. Honestly, I hope to never trim that many pieces of brass. I simply enjoy tinkering with my trimmer on occasion.

One thought I have when I read about you guys burning up motors is: why don't you design your own trimmer or redesign the Dillon trimmer to take a readily available replacement motor? I am thinking back, and I seem to remember finding the source of the motor that Dillon uses, but I don't remember the price. However, if you are being covered under Dillon's warranty, I guess it gives less motivation to reinvent the wheel.

I haven't really used mine enough to determine the major "do's and don'ts." I am just trying to get an idea of a good starting point.

The last time I used my trimmer I used a small shop vac. I have a much larger one that I will use to see if I get better results.

One final thought:

You saidthe dillon cutters are expensive and have to be amortized in.

Are you buying cutters from Dillon rather than a supply house? Or did you mean "trimmers" when you said "cutters?"

Thanks again for taking the time to share your experience
jonblack

[Crawdaddy]

.

https://sites.google.com/site/xr650rsale/_/rsrc/1308101970614/home/pic_02/550TH_09.jpg

These for the 650 or 550 are $50 plus shipping.




Nice work, and a good idea/solution on the 550. Do I understand your post above to mean that you sell modified toolheads?

You might find a few customers in this thread with those pics!

[Hoser]

Hoser

I wondered if you can help me with a problem I am having forming 300 whisper brass with the CH4D trim die. The problem is that my brass "chips" are not curls or chips, rather they are long strings of brass which quickly bind around the shaft of the trimmer.

The method I use to get actual chips to form is to give a very high feed rate so that curling is induced and the brass breaks into chips. I'm nervous about this. I would rather go slower than faster.

Can you tell me more about your feed rate or method to produce the proper chips?

Finally, can you elaborate on the issues that result in a burnt out motor and give me some pointers on how to avoid burning mine out?

Thank you very much for your attention to my questions.

jonblack

Feeding the case in faster is exactly what I do. It is maybe about a one count to form/trim.

After a while the bearings in the trimmers go due to the high load put on them when trimming all that brass. Just the way it is.

If you use too much lube or cases that have been resized, the case can spin in the die. Eventually the cutter grabs the case and starts tearing off brass. Big chunks can jam up the cutter causing the motor to self destruct and have a melt-down.

Lastly, get a strong shop vac. Keep an eye on how much noise you hear the shop vac making, it will tell you if it is having an issue.

[jonblack]

Hoser

Thanks for your reply. I appreciate that.

I guess you have to have the high feed rate to induce curls so that chips are made. I read a little about machining (turning) copper and brass and learning that the feed rate must be sufficient to create chips. I guess that holds true with any alloy.

One thing I have been doing (which may be my problem) is that I have been sizing the cases prior to forming. I think I use a Lee .223 die. I use Dillon spray lube. I am probably being generous with the spray lube.

As stated before, I used a small shop vac, but I do have a much larger one that I will use the next time I form 300 brass.

Makes sense about the bearings.

I remember a while back a guy had a RT-1200 on eBay for sale. It had a sticker on the motor that indicated the manufacturer. I got him to send me a photo of it. I will have to dig it up and share. I thought I did a little research on the source of the motor, but I have slept since then. Maybe for the benefit of the group I will look into a source again.

Any other tips you think of that would be helpful?

jonblack