Need advice; buggering up cases trying to convert .223 to .300

[PFDD]

First post here; been lurking, reading, ordering parts and have a 300/221 AR-based build almost complete but for cutting and rebending the gas tube. Thought I'd put a few cases together today. I'm relatively experienced loading .45 ACP, .308 and .223 ammo on both progressive and single stage presses but I've never formed cases before.

Here are the dies I'm using;
Redding form and trim die with extended shellholder
Redding small base (body only) sizing die
Redding 300/221 3-piece deluxe die set with FL sizing die, Neck sizing die and seating die and two sizing buttons; .270 and .30

I've ordered the Harbor Freight Chop Saw and it's inbound so I trimmed a few sample cases to both 1.400 and 1.355 using a tubing cutter. I tried trimming a few before and a few after running them through the form and trim die.

Here are the issues I'm having making cases;

I've snapped two case necks off when running the .30 caliber expander through the neck even though the outside and inside of the cases are lubed with Imperial Sizing lube. Fortunately I've been able to clear the necks using a tapered brass punch since I don't yet have the stuck case remover but I'll have to order it given my experience so far.

I've also crumpled three necks trying to run the .30 caliber expander through though I generally get zero resistance running the .270 expander through.

The brass I was experimenting with were South African cast offs (Berdan primed) that were of course disposable anyway, but then I tried the same process on a LC case and I snapped off a neck on it too. The brass was cleaned but not deprimed because I was using the Berdan primed cases initially.

Obviously I'm not doing something right but I'm using plenty of lube, and tried a couple of different sequences; trimming first, form and trim die followed by trimming, small base die first, then form and trim, FL resizing die with both expanding buttons in sequence; .270 and .30. Not sure where I'm failing but clearly I've not been successful.

I had planned on case forming using primarily LC brass and since I'm relatively close to the Quantico Marine Corp base some of the cases could have been fired in a SAW hence the precaution of the small base die.

I did manage to make a couple of decent cases but none would chamber fully even one that I seated a 220 Grain SMK to an overall length of 2.260. My barrel is from TP555 and though I forgot to order a chamber gauge with the barrel, I have one coming soon.

The press I was using was using was a Redding T-7. I used a RCBS Trimmate to clean up the chamfering on the case mouth. When I go into production mode after figuring out where I'm failing, I have a Giraud with the 300/221 case holder that I'll bring to bear for final trimming duty.

Clearly I shouldn't have the level of resistance I'm seeing with the .30 caliber expander and I checked it with the calipers to ensure it was indeed .30 (it was).

Seems there are two completely different schools of thought on the best source of .300 Whisper brass (.221 or .223). I've seen reasoned opinions in both camps so I'm unsure if all else was equal, but I'd like to use the .223 if possible since I have a fair number of cases already.

So in summary, what the heck am I doing wrong? :confused:

Your advice is more than welcome and appreciated.

Best,

Brad

[I Shooter]

It is my understanding that you are using 223 brass. Then you are cutting off just below the neck. Then you are running them through the 270 die? Why. The case is already bigger than the 30 why would you wont to go to the 270 then bring it back up to the 30. Lube the hell out of the cases inside and out then run them through the 30 die. It should work.

[amafrank]

Not sure why you're having problems and really not sure why the .270 expander is involved at all....this is a .308.

The only thing I can think of is that you must be annealling the case necks prior to the sizing and that is something you don't want to do when you are making a big change in dimensions. I find that running the .223 cases into my trim die (CH4D) and then into the full length sizer die with the .308 expander works great. I've never crushed a case neck that way. Sometimes I trim the cases prior to running them into the trim die, sometimes I actually use the trim die to trim. I did have a lot of problems trying to neck up .221 fireball cases and I did crush a few necks and split a couple too before going to the much easier to work with .223.

Hope something here helps out.

Frank

[Scalce]

You are not using the extended shellholder on the non trim dies right?

[PFDD]

Thanks gentlemen,

I am using .223 cases and received no instructions with the Form and Trim die and the Redding instructions that came with the 300/221 dies only related to forming cases from .221, so I'm operating a bit in the dark and obviously fumbling.

I wasn't sure that the Form and Trim die was giving me the proper neck diameter so I ran the .270 expander button though first followed by the .30 caliber button per the instructions included with the dies. Since I encountered friction with the .270 button only when the tubing cutter closed down the neck opening a bit too much, I will gladly omit the extra and unneeded step.

I'm not annealing the cases first and thought I had plenty of lube but clearly something is inadequate beyond my knowledge.

It's kind of a pisser that the Redding instructions only address .221 as the parent cases and you're supposed to intuit how to set up the Form and Trim die and don't even know you need the extended shellholder until you come up short the first time you try to use it. I'll contact Redding later today.

I will try a few more cases using more lube this time but will probably wait until I have the chop saw instead of the tubing cutter. I tried a couple of cases using the tubing cutter followed by a mill file while the case was still in the F&T die but it seems the shortest I can rough trim the case in the F&T is 1.400 so bringing them down to 1.355 requires final trim tools.

Thanks for your comments. So far more lube looks to be the consensus.

[PFDD]

Scalce,

Good question, but no, I'm switching out the shellholder between dies and it's a pain but at least the turret of the T-7 allows me to keep the dies all mounted and only switch out the shellholder.

Thanks for the input though. I'm clearly missing something.

[Fritzcat]

The tube cutter may be your problem. I have only done 350 cases and biult my upper about a month ago, but have had no problems. My cases are 2nd fired Rem and a Win and LC slip ins. I only bought the Redding Form Die and Redding 2 Die FL. I first tumble, lube with lanolin spray then run threw Form die using My RCBS Match Extended shell holder. Tumble off lube, cut behind shoulder with grinder with 1/16 blade, chamfer inside with drill press with counter-sink. trim to 1.360 using RCBS power trimmer with standard cutter, lube with lanolin spray, Full size and deprime using Redding FL with 30 cal expander and RCBS regular shell holder bumping it against the die for max sizing as per instructions, Tumble, trim to 1.355 with RCBS Power Trimmer with 3-way cutter head. All have chambered good and no destroyed cases.

[PFDD]

Thanks Fritzcat, I suspect you're right in pointing toward the tubing cutter as the potential source of difficulty as it really does roll in the edges of the cut even though I've tried to increase pressure very slowly. I tried cutting a few a bit long and then used a mill file to bring them back down toward 1.400 in the form and trim die and managed to get a few seemingly viable cases out of the 10-12 I experimented with, but they still didnt' fully chamber. I used the RCBS Trimmate to clean up the chamfer after the mill file treatment.

I'm thinking I can use my angle grinder or Dremel with a cut off wheel for a few more attempts before the chop saw shows up. Avoiding the case separation in the die is a good step forward:rolleyes:

Thanks again for your input.

[amafrank]

Since you do have a trim die than don't worry about getting a fancy cutoff wheel until you figure out what the problem is. Run some brass up in the trim die and cut it off using a hacksaw. You might want to leave the die a little bit high for the cut off so that the cases won't trim short. Use a file to trim the cases flat with the top of the die then use a chamfering tool to clean up the inside of the case. Getting rid of the burr inside will help to make sure you aren't getting the expander ball jammed up on it. Once you have a few cases trimmed like this than you can run them into the sizing die lubed outside and inside the neck. The expander ball will grab inside the neck if there is no lube and that can cause troubles too. If the expanders are ball shaped that can create more problems. The good ones have a long taper to them so they don't try and expand the necks all at once.

The reason they don't give you any info on working with .223 is because the cases are supposed to be made from .221 fireball brass. Thats why you have 2 different size expander balls. Don't blame them for not giving info because we are doing something the tools weren't designed for. Some guys are still using .221 brass because they say its more consistant dimensionally and has the proper neck thickness without any extra work. We use .223 brass because its substantially cheaper, it can be found with very consistant internal dimensions and some types will work with no extra work to make the necks the right thickness. That brings us to the last question for you....What kind of .223 brass are you using??? Some types have very thick case walls and will end up doing just the sort of thing you describe, sticking and jamming up in the necks. I've used US commercial brass with no problems though I find the winchester to be the most consistant. I've also used Lake City, Malaysian military and some Korean PMC brass with no issues. I've had problems with the South African brass, Abu Dhabi, Radway green (Brit) and some other military stuff I haven't identified. They all have thick case walls and either don't size well, have such small primer flash holes that they grab the decapping pin, or need the case necks turned in order to use. Tell us what brass you're using and that will help too......


Frank

[PFDD]

Frank,

Thank you for your reply.

On the Form and Trim die, one reason I was hesitating to use a hacksaw was the crowded access on the T-7 turret and the resulting brass debris since I was temporarily working the cases in the family room vice the normal loading room (den). Just trying to be social and not have the boss on my tail. That said, I'll give it a run in the proper environment but I did notice that it seemed like I can't manipulate much variation in OAL. I screwed the die in and backed it off but the result seemed to be the same OAL except for variation in the length of the neck.

I lubed the inside and outside of the case and even rubbed lube directly on the expander which are the long tapered variant not ball shaped. I'm starting to believe my tubing cutter trim is the culprit as Fritzcat suggested and your suggestion of the hacksaw cut or another cleaner cutting tool should not change the brass dimensions as much prior to running the expander through.

Understood on the Redding instructions but the fact is that there are indeed two viable parent cases and as long as both create safe & accurate ammo it seems a bit incomplete to address only a single parent case source. Clearly I didn't come with the complete case forming knowledge set and even the Redding website is spare on instructions and so far the few loading books I've looked at haven't been much help either. Hence the appeal for help here among folks who are far more experienced.

As to the brass, I was using the South African once fired only to see if I could correctly form the cases and will use Lake City almost exclusively after I can produce correctly dimensioned cases to satisfaction. So far I'm glad I went that route as I've buggered up about 8 cases out of 12. No harm no foul on throw-away cases but I more jealously guard cases that are effectively match prepped except that I'm not turning the necks. I don't have all that much time so the "Brass Services" post from Hoser next to mine is fortuitous. I need to get an advertising cut; I'm hooking him up:wink: as a representitive of the inept newbee in need of adult assistance.

Best,

Brad

[PFDD]

Update;

Spoke with the tech support folks at Redding and they do have written instructions for using .223 as the parent case so they're sending those and the instructions on the Form and Trim die.

It seems I was too conservative in the F&T setting where I backed it off a full turn from shellholder contact. They instructed me to go to cam over which ought to give me better results.

On the full length sizing using the .30 expander, suggestions were directed at the use of the tubing cutter having constricted the neck too much.

I'll give it another run.

Thanks for your assistance.

[Scalce]

I'd be interested to see those instructions when you get them.

If you have a soft copy.

[PFDD]

Scalce,

So far I do have the instructions in soft copy of the .223 case forming but if anything they're more basic than the .221 instructions. I have the PDF version and you're welcome to it. Nothing yet though on the F&T die. You're welcome to that too when I have it. Redding indicated they might have to snail mail that to me if it wasn't scanned.

Unfortunately I tried 4 more cases tonight without success;
1. South African once fired- snapped the neck off in the FL sizing die using the .30 caliber expander
2. Lake City once fired- same, snapped the neck off
3. Winchester once fired-snapped neck but case stayed together with neck portion rotating
4. Winchester new brass-crumpled neck just before cam over

The cases this evening were cleaned, lubed with Imperial Sizing die in and out and on the expander button. All were rough trimmed with a hacksaw while in the F&T die then inside and outside chamfered before being relubed and trying the FL sizing die. After snapping off the first two necks, I backed off the expander plug until it just touched the neck with the ram fully up and started screwing it down a quarter turn at a time until I felt the case give and the neck seperated but stayed attached to the base allowing full rotation. Final try with a new case and same procedure followed until I felt the neck crunch and wrinkle. The expander no longer has a smooth taper and has a visual and tactile depression but it still measures approximately .305 at its widest point.

The only positive outcomes are that the tubing cutter is eliminated as the source of issue as is new versus potentially work hardened once fired brass. I've managed to bugger South African, Lake City, new and once fired Winchester. There is an equipment or setting issue that has clearly yet to be resolved though I have eliminated a couple of variables.

Still looking for ideas if you have them. At this point, I'll be contacting Redding again tomorrow. Never had this kind of trouble even on much more complex equipment.

Thanks much,

Brad

[notenoughguns]

Sounds like the expander button is to close to the top of the die , try screwing it down a few more turns .

[Fritzcat]

notenoughguns, may have figured it. I deprime and FL size in my last step, so my expander is down enough to see about 3/16 of the deprime pin.

[PFDD]

Thanks gents,

Since I use a universal decapper and was also experimenting on the South African Berdan primed cases, I removed the decapping pin from the FL sizing die. I had been running the expander quite high but in one last try after my previous experience last night ruining the four cases, I prepped another new Winchester case in the same fashion (inlcuding the inside and outside lube) and screwed the expander down much further. I ran the case up and could tell by the resistance encountered that I was likely in trouble so I pulled the case out and I'd crumpled the neck again but short of separating it.

I'm now wondering if my Imperial Sizing lube is adequate for the interior neck expansion as I run the case mouth approximately 1/4-3/8 from the top of the expander and the cases go no further. From that point I either crunch and wrinkle the cases or I crunch and separate the neck portion from the shoulder. A distant posibility is that there is something wrong with the die or expander dimensions, but I'm still focused on a failing in my settings or lube. I think I'll try again with a different lube and reset the expander low enough that it would be punching the primers out if I had the decapping pin in place. Might just have to sacrifice a few additional Lake City or Winchester cases and actually punch out the primers. Hate to risk good brass given my "Hall of Shame" collection of crunched and separated cases but will give it another go.

By the way, Redding contacted me by email today to indicate that:

"We don't have any instructions for trim dies. Sorry. They are normally adjusted to make firm contact with the shellholder. If a lot of case sticks above the top of the die, cut it off with a 32 tpi hacksaw blade and file with a fine cut file. If only a little of the case sticks out, just use the file." Not much info there but better than what came with the die....

Thanks again,

Brad

[notenoughguns]

The expander button should be .05 to .07 from the base of the die without de caping pin . I never had to use lube on the expander plug and I've made 1000's of cases without problems , just lubed the outside with lanolin based lube.

[PFDD]

I've been running the expander far too high in the die body. Should have factored that in since the other function of the die is decapping (with the pin in place), so the pin has to be in reach of the fired primer and a bit more to punch it out. Just didn't think it would matter as long as I wasn't pushing the expander to the bottom of the case and buggering it up in the flash hole area.

Another fact I've been pondering is that I've got the Redding T-7 mounted on a Franklin Arsenal portable stand so I could do brass monkey chores in the family room, and I wonder if it imparts enough instability that the press leverage isn't smooth enough. Clearly there is more than sufficient leverage to crunch cases, but obviously that isn't my objective.

I'll try the expander much lower in the die body tonight and will switch out my lube after I've tried repositioning the expander. Failing that, I'll switch to one of the bench mounted presses to see if I'm inducing failures based on new dynamics.

Thank you for your input.

Best,

Brad

[amafrank]

I've been using an RCBS junior press for the full length sizing and decapping so I don't think leverage is the problem. There isn't really much effort required to work on this conversion of .223 to 300-221 since the amount of change to the brass is so slight. The location of the expander ball sounds like the biggest issue in your case. If the neck has entered the sizing portion of the die before the expander does then you are definitely going to have problems. There is just not enough clearance between the die wall and the expander with the case wall in between, especially with the military brass. The part of the case we are using tends to be thicker than a normal neck and will jam up the die or break the case as you've been doing. The only time I've even crumpled a neck is trying to expand a .221 case after annealling it. I have never even wrinkled a Lake City case...... Adjust the expander ball until it bottoms out on the case with the ram fully up and cammed over. You will have to do that with the decapping pin removed or with the primer already out. Once it makes contact with the case back it out a turn or two. You want to make sure you don't bottom out on the cases in practice and there is some variation in the web thickness. This will insure that the expander hits the neck at a point where the die is not supporting and wedging it. That allows the case to expand around the ball. It will then enter the portion of the die that squeezes it down to the proper dimension and then the ball will slip through the case neck from the inside and expand it to the correct finished diameter. As with not enough guns I've run many cases through the program with no lube on the expander and had no problems. It takes a bit more effort on the press handle but not much. I do normally lube because it helps avoid stretching the case necks and putting scratches in them.

Your shell holder should contact the die base and the handle should cam over somewhat. This insures that the die and press springback don't prevent the case from being pushed all the way into the die. You will find that the instructions from most if not all the die and press manufacturers are pretty basic. They assume you know something about what you are doing. I don't know if they are covering their asses for liability reasons or just figureing you should have some idea what you are doing already. In any case thats what boards like this excel in...help for all of us when we are a bit lost. Someone somewhere has had the problems before and figured it out.....

Last suggestion here is to get rid of the south african brass. You can't really use it and with the thicker case walls it has there is a possibility that its bending or otherwise screwing with your dies. There is a large variation in wall thickness between different manufacturers of military brass and that thickness can create big problems. I've had some brass that even neck turning wouldn't save. Bottom line is that if you can't use it get rid of it. The lake city stuff should be fine. I've use LC brass from the early 70's all the way to 06 headstamped brass and had no problems with any of it. If you are having problems with the LC than there is something wrong in your setup and you can use the lake city brass for a control. Its cheap enough and available enough that you can afford to destroy a few cases to get things setup right. Once you get that figured than you can start fiddling with the more expensive commercial brass like Federal or Winchester and not worry about killing cases.....be glad you aren't working with .221 fireball brass, it cost more than twice as much.

Frank

[PFDD]

Frank,

I sincerely appreciate your thorough reply.

What you've said makes perfect sense that I'm trying to expand the mouth of the case in the region of the die where I should be resizing it down. I may have slightly buggered up my expander button too.

Understood on the instructions, but I've gone through many cycles of feverish interest in one aspect or another of shooting/reloading and then let it go dormant for many years before dusting stuff off again and heading in some new direction. Changing calibers recently on a Dillon 650 was a major evolution to me because I hadn't done it in probably 10+ years and had to relearn how on top of cleaning and relubing it in the appropriate places. Fortunately the Dillon instructions are thorough and laden with pictures..! My experience base has big time gaps in it and I've never reformed new cases, yet I suspect I could have figured this out if I tried harder to analyze the steps as they were happening. As you've stated forums like this make a huge difference to someone like me, and I appreciate the efforts and suggestions of all involved. Leveraging the experience of others is the best asset I've had.

I keep the South African cases around as sacrificial offerings to the trimmer gods and such when changing case holders on the Giraud trimmer or setting up dies. I've spent some time with long range shooting so I match condition my cases short of neck turning and along the way there are steps which chew up a few pieces of brass. The last thing you want to do is chew up a Lapua match case when you can offer up some South African as long as you're not screwing the equipment up. LC cleans up nice and performs well as does IMI match brass and with match prepping and sorting is about as good as anything else. I use a lot of LC cases and that's what I intend to use with the .300 when I've got it dialed in.

I suspect with the expander in the right position within the die, my brief flurry of intense forum activity will end. I'll confirm when I've got them coming out properly.

Thanks again,

Brad

[Scalce]

I suspect with the expander in the right position within the die, my brief flurry of intense forum activity will end.

This board is too slow so go mess something else up so there are posts to read.

:grin:

[PFDD]

:smile: No problem there as you're probably already figured out. When I get home I'll see if I can attach the PDF I got from Redding and failing that if you give me your email I'll send it to you.

I still haven't cut or recontoured my gas tube to fit in the TP555 gas block so I'm sure I can come up with some drama there and then how to get and keep the AR running with the right subsonic load. Stand by, I'll come up with some other mini series.

Thanks for your help. :nanabang:

Brad

[PFDD]

Update:

Amazing what happens when you run the expander button at the correct height in the die....!

Just tried two Lake City once fired cases and what do you know; smooth as butter with little leverage and far less lube required. The entire difficulty was induced (well by ignorance) but you've helped me through it and I appreciate the assistance.

Here are the Redding instructions for forming 300/221 cases using .223 cases:

CASE FORMING INSTRUCTIONS
300/221 Remington FROM 223 Remington BRASS
DIES REQUIRED:
1.300/221 Remington Form & Trim Die
2. #10 Extended Shell holder
3.300/221 Remington F.L. Die Set

BRASS REQUIRED:

Cases for the 300/221 Remington can be made by necking and reforming 223 Remington brass. It is desirable to use new unfired brass for forming. As it has not yet been work hardened by repeated firings, it is softer and easier to form.

There is always a potential problem when case forming from one caliber to another. The neck wall thickness may increase. You should be aware of this problem and its potential dangers. You may encounter this problem when making 300/221 Remington cases from 223 Remington brass. Reaming or neck turning of the case necks may be necessary in order to
produce cases that will chamber and function safely.

SEQUENCE:
1.300/221 Remington Form & Trim Die functions as Form #1. Cut and file off excess and then debur.
2. Final size using the standard 300/221 Remington F.L. Die.
3. Inside neck ream or outside neck turn cases if necessary.

CAUTION: A note of caution applies to "wildcat" calibers and all case forming operations.

WATCH THE NECK DIAMETER. If insufficient space is available in your chamber to allow the case necks to "open up" and release the bullet, very dangerous pressures can result. Any difficulty in chambering is a caution flag!
If possible compare the neck diameter measurements of a previously fired case from your chamber with those of a loaded round. The neck diameter of the fired case should be a minimum of .002-.003" larger than the unfired one. If in doubt, consult a competent gunsmith.

If you should have any questions concerning the above procedure, contact:
REDDING RELOADING EQUIPMENT
1089 STARR ROAD
CORTLAND, NY 13045
tech Iine@redding-reloading.com
REDDING-HUNTER INCORPORATED 1089 STARR ROAD CORTLAND, NEW YORK 13045 TELEPHONE: 607-753-3331

Thanks again gents.