My new Whisper & Load Questions

[Salmonaxe]

So I just finished my first 300 whisper build. Also I've figured out a really cool way to make whisper brass with a dillon trimmer and finally overcame the biggest issue which was the head of the case spinning(and getting torn up) when the cutter first came in contact with the .223 case neck. (I can talk about this more if anyone is interested.)

Here's a pic.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v328/salmonaxe/Noveske_300Whisper.jpg

Here's the build spec.
-Noveske 300/221 Fireball 1/8" twist 16" bbl w/ pistol length gas system.
-Noveske BCG.
-Noveske KX3 (Until I get my can.)
-Noveske pinned low profile gas block
-Daniel Defense M4 12.0 Rail
-Tactical Inovations Billet deluxe lower (my first one was better than this one. (It's kinda wobbly even with the tension screw)
-White Oak parts kit.
- RRA 2-stage NM trigger.
-Magpul UBR stock and MIAD grip
-Stag carbine buffer and spring.
-Leupold 4.5-14x40 VX-III (Enough elevation out of all my cheapo scopes for zero.)
-Larue SPR-S mount. (10 MOA of forward cant)

Anyway. I'm feeling pretty good about this project. My first day out with it wasn't seriously disappointing, but I feel I could do better. My load was a bit anemic and not terribly accurate. I had started with a load my buddy had hoping to replicate his results. 9.1gr H110 pushing a 240gr SMK @ 1020ft/s For my build that same load only had them going @ 880ft/s (ES=35 SD=15) and it wasn't enough to lock back the bolt even though it fed all but 2 rounds. Oh yeah. Conditions. So I was roughly at 800ft elevation. Little to no humidity and the temperature was between 25-35 degrees Fahrenheit. Wind was kicking up to about 20 mph, but settled down to an average of about 5-10 mph.

Also, after looking through the photo thread, I noticed that I had loaded my rounds too long at .223 mag length. Since the bullets ogive changes the contour of the feeding geometry of the mag it looks as if it's better to seat them farther back so they don't cant inwards and jam up. (I'll have to do this.)

For my next set of loads, I was thinking I'd start at 11.0gr of H110 and work my way down to 9.5gr with the remainder of my 240gr SMKs. Then do the same with some 220gr SMK's starting at 12.0gr H110 down to 9.5gr. Sound like a good plan? (Looking at the whisper load data this seems all to be well in the safe margin.)

I'm really hoping to get it to function 100% and lock back on an empty mag in the subsonic range. Also, I'm thinking that the cold had a huge effect on the function of the rifle, velocity achieved and overall accuracy due to vertical stringing. H110 has been said to be temp sensitive, and I did notice velocity changes in my other friends AR when he cooked the rounds for too long.

Any advice would be appreciated.:smile:

[320pf]

H110 is pretty temperature sensitive. I had a H110 super sonic load that ran well at 40-45 deg F at a few feet above sea-level. When I tried the gun and load in Arizona at 1000-1200 ft on a 85 deg F day it would blow primers after the third or fourth round. So I suspect that the cold is causing your H110 load to run a bit slow.

320pf

[Alleycat]

VV N110 For all your subsonic needs.........

[Salmonaxe]

Interesting. I see from my burn rate chart that N110 is right next to Lil' Gun and very close to H110. How does it fare when it comes to temp sensitivity? (I have heard that Vihta Vuori pistol powders tend to be less temp sensitive. Since it's Finnish that would make sense.) I'm guessing that loads would be very similar to the H110 loads? I don't currently have an internal ballistics program, but I can get a buddy to run numbers for me.

Any primer recommendations? I was just using Winchester Small Rifle primers, since that's what I've had the best luck with on .223 and even 6.5x47L.

[Alleycat]

10.0 gr of VV N110 gives me 1052 out of a 16" barrel. It's very stable. It will not drive the supersonic bullets as fast as H110 will. On the subs I get the same velocity with 0.2 grs less.



240 MK

[sharky47]

Personally, I am phasing over the lil-gun for my subsonics and discontinuing my H110 use.

VV powders are not available locally and I usually cannot afford to order powder in large enough quantities to make the hazmat fee worth it.


Nice setup though - very professional choice of components.....

[strycnine]

Very nice rifle!

I'd be interested in the info on the brass trimming setup.


I tested some loads the other day using 9.4grs of VihtaVuori N110, Federal 205 primers and 220gr Seirra ProHunter projectiles loaded to magazine length. My 5 shot average was around 914fps and was very quite with my YHM Phantom:smile:.I'm using a Pac-Nor Polygonal 8 twist barrel that's 10" in length with the gasblock in the pistol position. I'm not using an adjustable gas system as it seems to run fine.



DISCLAIMER: This load works in MY rifle only! Not responsible if you blow yourself up:grin:

[Salmonaxe]

Thanks for the info guys. (And thanks for the compliments on the setup.) I guess I'll have to track down some Lil Gun and some N110.

strycnine- You have a Pacnor AR-15 barrel and it's not a noveske barrel? Weird. Pacnor redirects right to Noveske for their AR-15 barrels on their website.

I can try and make a video of my brass creation process. At the very least I can detail my process.

[strycnine]

Thanks for the info guys. (And thanks for the compliments on the setup.) I guess I'll have to track down some Lil Gun and some N110.

strycnine- You have a Pacnor AR-15 barrel and it's not a noveske barrel? Weird. Pacnor redirects right to Noveske for their AR-15 barrels on their website.

I can try and make a video of my brass creation process. At the very least I can detail my process.

I'm pretty sure Ron got it direct from PacNor as a blank, then he finished it. Maybe he will chime in.

[Fritzcat]

My 10 1/2" from Ron has a Pacnor 1x8 Polygonal barrel and Paladin 3 way gas block. You have a great looking Rifle.

[Salmonaxe]

Here's a video I just made detailing my method of generating 300/221 fireball brass. I tried posting a new topic, but for some reason it didn't go through... (I think...)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ea1eNhQvsFQ

Hopefully this all makes sense. I can go over the details if anyone has specific questions.

[Salmonaxe]

I'd be interested in the info on the brass trimming setup.


This is somewhat like another youtube video I saw, where a guy modified a .308 Dillon Rapid trim die in order to trim and form his brass. I tried the same thing, but had an issue with the cases spinning when the neck of the .223 case contacted the cutter since there was no support for the case. End result was a pretty torn up case head. I tried a bunch of different things and finally came up with the solution of snipping the the neck off with some sheetmetal snips. This tweeked the shoulder area of the case, which made for unreliable feeding on my progressive presses feed tube, so I fixed that by tweeking the neck back with a pair of needle nose pliers.

Probably not the most elegant of solutions, but it worked for me. :smile:

Here's my crappy video. Not sure why I was pointing the camera in a weird direction hopefully you guys can tell what's going on. Sorry I don't know how to embed.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ea1eNhQvsFQ

(Oh cool! My post finally went through!)

So on another note, I tried a bunch more loads and had even less success at getting the rifle to cycle properly. Again, it was freezing out, so the H110 might have been having issues with that.

I'm thinking that my seating the bullets deeper in order to feed correctly is also having an effect on overall pressures being achieved. Each increased charge weight did show an increase in velocity. But the ones that were loaded at case capacity or slightly compressed, didn't cycle the bolt enough to pick up an extra round. I'm guessing that with a nearly compressed load I didn't get proper ignition of the charge through the case, but due to the extra long barrel, I was able to pick up more velocity as the powder continued to burn down the barrel. Resulting in a lower port pressure. Cartridges that were loaded to capacity/compressed came out dirty in comparison to the those which cycled fully enough to pick up the next round. Just FYI, none of the primers showed any signs of over pressure. I did see an improvement in accuracy in all my newest loads, which weren't as wimpy as my first loads.

Here's what I'd loaded up and my results. All loads were done with H110.

240gr SMK 9.5gr H110- 1092ft/s (Ejected no second round pickup)
240gr SMK 10.0gr H110- 1156ft/s (Ejected no second round pickup)
220gr SMK 9.5gr H110- 950ft/s (Fully cycled didn't hold bolt open reliably)
220gr SMK 10.0gr H110- 1042ft/s (Fully cycled didn't hold bolt open reliably)
220gr SMK 10.5gr H110- 1128ft/s (Ejected no second round pickup)

So, my thoughts are to do a few things.
-Run magnum primers
-Switch to Lil' Gun or N110 since the require less powder to get the velocities I want. Also might be less temp sensitive
-Mod some Pmag to allow me to run at mag length, not the shorter length I'm currently using. (Resulting in a better internal capacity.)
-Run I lighter weight carrier. (I just switched out my noveske carrier for an old colt half moon carrier. It's a bit lighter and has been worn in,which might have some effect. I also pulled the o-ring from under the extractor, just in case. Seemed to give the ejector more leverage which could have been causing more dragging force on ejection.)

I'll hold off on getting an adjustable gasblock until I've exhausted my other options. I don't want to mess with the build too much until I get a can for it.

[320pf]

I have had pretty good luck with Accurate #9 for my subsonic loads. Here is the published subsonic load data from Accurate:

Sierra 220 HPBT C.O.L.=2.245"
Powder-grains-Vel.--p.s.i.
No.2---5.5----889---52,600
No.5---6.3---1062---38,200
No.7---7.5---1043---44,500
No.9---8.2---1056---39,500

I have been told not use the faster powders in an AR15. But if your gas port is in the pistol position you might be able to get A#7 to work for you. So A#7 should give you higher pressures at the gas port and thus cycle the action better.

I have also had some luck with 2400. Bottom line is that you have to try them all until you find the one that works in your rifle.

I hope this helps

320pf

[Salmonaxe]

Where did you get this load data? I looked at accurate powders website and only found a really basic PDF. Did you get their hardcopy? Just in case I you're talking about accurate reloading, I checked there and couldn't find the same data.

What I think is weird is that in quarterbore's subsonic section, it shows a way heavier load for Accurate No. 7

ACCURATE ARMS No. 7 POWDER

10.45 220 976/465 38 19

10.82 220 1055/544 49 17

11.00 220 1071/560 48 19

10.45 250 1012/569 73 28

[320pf]

Where did you get this load data? I looked at accurate powders website and only found a really basic PDF. Did you get their hardcopy? Just in case I you're talking about accurate reloading, I checked there and couldn't find the same data.

What I think is weird is that in quarterbore's subsonic section, it shows a way heavier load for Accurate No. 7

ACCURATE ARMS No. 7 POWDER

10.45 220 976/465 38 19

10.82 220 1055/544 49 17

11.00 220 1071/560 48 19

10.45 250 1012/569 73 28

I got the data from the Accurate Arms website before they were bought by Western Powder. After they were bought by Western Powder the website change, particularly the online reloading data.

Each gun is different. Also gas operated gun may need a bit more powder to run. I would suggest that you start with about 9.0gr and see what you get. And then work up or down from there.

320pf