Seating bullets causes the necks to bulge

[Kanttori]

Hello,

I'm fairly new to realoding...and a complete amateur when it comes to bottle neck rifle cases. I practised doing the Whisper ammo by doing dummies today....The neck sizing was easy...I just ran the cases thru the the F.L. die with 7mm and .30cal tapered size buttons...then I proceeded seating the bullets and experienced collapsed shoulders and a "micro bulge ring" just below the bullet. I used the 5.56 OAL. What did I do wrong?? The brass was brand new. Help me!!!!!

[jripper]

You might try chamfering the inside of the case neck. All the major reloading companies make tools for this. It puts a slight bevel on the inside of the case neck, and should allow the bullet to seat easier.

[Kanttori]

What is the maximum overall cartridge lenght for ARs??? Dunno what's wrong but I put one of the dummies in a mag, with the bolt at the back and I released the bolt, it feeded the dummy round ok, bolt closed and I was able to fire...but when I tried to extract the round it was STUCK...it took both hands on the charging handle to get the round out, I noticed some scrathes on the tip of the bullet...I suspect the feeding did those...(?) Anyway, I think I should be able to extract the rounds manually without any more force than with 5.56...This is really odd.

[Kanttori]

I just don't know amymore...So far I have done 15 or so dummies...all fail to feed or extract...or both. I'm using brand new brass, new redding dies..I seat the bullets at correct height. Still I get some sort of bulging with each case...which probably causes the rounds stick to the chamber. I thought reloading .300Whisper would not be any harder than reloading some other caliber but obviously it is. I don't know whatta F is wrong with this caliber.

[jripper]

What bullet weight are you using?

I had a similar problem at first when loading 125's. I loaded them too long, and found that the bullets were hitting the rifling, and sticking in the chamber. I actually ended up pulling a couple of bullets out of the case, with spilled powder down in the action (this makes a very big mess).

With 168s, 220s, and 240s, I seat them as far out as they will still fit in the chamber, but with 125s, they need to be considerably shorter. Keep seating them deeper until they feed and extract right.

Be sure to lower your load a little, and work back up as you are doing this, as it will increase the pressure.

Joel

[jripper]

I meant to say that I can load the heavier bullets as far out as they will still fit in the AR magazine, as that if I keep them at this length, they still go in the chamber.

[jripper]

I have another question. What kind of press are you loading on? I load on a Dillon 550, and in the powder die, if I adust it too far, it will bulge the neck.

Joel

[Kanttori]

I'm using an RCBS Partner press.....BTW, I have adjusted the seater die so that it touches the shellholder and and gave it another 1/4 turn for that little resistance. Is it correctly adjusted this way? I'm using Redding 3 die set. Thanks.

[jripper]

If you are adjusting your Bullet Seater die that way, I don't think it is necessary to adjust the die all the way down. I don't know if the redding die has a crimp function in it, but if it does, you may be crimping the case a lot. I think I just adjusted mine down with the case in the shell holder, until it just starts to show resistance, and then just use the bullet seater stem for the final seating depth.

I don't know if that would cause your problems, however.

[Kanttori]

THAT WAS IT!!!!! :D :D :D :D :D :D :D

BUT...now the rounds fail to extract!!! But when I turn the gun upside down they fall from the chamber!?!? Is the extractor busted??? It didn't seem like busted...

[Kanttori]

BTW, I'm using 2.2" overall lenght. Slightly under the 5.56 lenght, is it still an ok lenght??

[jripper]

That length should be OK if it is not a light weight (125-130 gr)bullet. When you say it will not extract, are you talking about after firing, or ejecting a live round.

If it is with live ammo, it may well be the extractor. If not...well then there are several possibilities.

[Kanttori]

Ejecting a live round...like these dummies I made...there's nothing wrong with the extractor. I checked it...and even tried it with a new bolt....no live round extraction problems with 5.56 rounds....this is strange...What on earth could cause this?!?

[jripper]

What load are you shooting? It could be that it is not cycling the gun fully (look at my thread on model 1 sales problem). There are several fixes for this.

Also, it is possible that your load is too hot, and the extrator is ripping through the rim. You could tell this, very easily by looking at a fired case.

You could also not have enough extractor tension. This can be improved by replacing the extractor spring or adding a D-Fender ring under the extractor. I have a D-Fender, but have not put it in either of my AR's, as they don't really need it.

[Kanttori]

Jripper,

First I want to thank you for helping me out. Obviously this is a rather quiet forum.

I am not shooting the upper yet. I want to test chambering and extraction before I load real ammo. So all the tests so far have been made with empty rounds (*No primer or powder*). Once the upper functions with the *dummies* I have made..then I'll get down to real business. I'm an amateur so I rather check and test, check and test than go for it an KABOOM. I was thinking that maybe the reason why the extractor doesn't pick the round from the chamber is that it falls too deep...BUT I don't know how that could be possible. The case shoulders should make it stop right where it's supposed to. I'll try to get some pics up...with measures...maybe you could compare those with the rounds you have made and see if there's anything wrong.

I still have faith :D

[jripper]

Hey, No Problem with the help.

I just got into the .300 last fall, and the guys here helped me get through some problems I was having. Last summer I built a house in the country were I have my own range, and can do a lot of chronographing/load work literally out my back door. If it wasn't for this, I think I would not have attempted the .300, as it does seem to take a little experimenting to get it to work right.

But, in the long run, I think it's worth it.

I also don't like to work, and would rather reply to this forum.

Probably a good idea to try the dummy route first, as I jumped right into it, and ended up pulling out a bullet and dumping powder into my receiver (I have become an expert at stripping a lower, due to this happening a couple of times).

What brand Upper/Barrel do you have? Is it a new bolt, or a used one?

Are you dropping the round directly into the chamber, and then closing the bolt, or are you feeding it from a magazine?

As a rule of thumb, in semi autos, you should always feed from the magazine.

I can't picture the front of an AR bolt in my head right now, but it it works like most bolts, the round is designed to come up under the extractor. If it is dropped in and the bolt closed, the extractor may have to snap over the rim, and if the bolt is not worked briskly, it may not do this.

Of course, like I said, for some reason I can't picture what the extractor looks like, and I don't have an AR with me at work.

So, I could be way off, but it is a thought.

The round should not be falling in too deeply, as it should head space on the shoulder, like you said.

I'll keep thinking about this one....

[Turtle]

Hello,
New to the board and to the .300 whisper game -- but I would like to give my 2 cents in the hope it may help someone.

I think there is a headspace problem here on this ar. I would like to make a suggestion. Take a piece of formed .300 whisper brass without a bullet or primer -- hold the bolt back and install this brass into the bolt -- make sure the rim is captured by the extractor and guide the bolt closed holding the case in the bolt with your index finger. You will feel the spring pressure of the ejector trying to push the brass out the ejection port -- that is where your finger will be -- holding it in place. You can do this with the upper off of the lower so you don't have to worry about damaging your finger. Push the bolt all the way forward and then pull the bolt back. If by doing this the bolt closes all the way and the round is ejected then you know the headspace is at least big enough. Assuming the extractor is operating freely -- not frozen and will open with decent amount of pressure -- then we can carry on. (At this point in the post I would assume the brass was ejected if it was manually installed on the bolt.) Next step would be to manually install that same piece of brass in the chamber -- close the bolt completely and see if it will extract. If not then you know your headspace is toooo much. And let me be clear -- headspace is too much for that piece of brass. I had this problem and found that by using the redding FL die with the die set to hit the collet slightly --over(or under)sized my brass -- basically made the distance from the base to the shoulder too short. My fix was to change how I was forming brass -- left the gun alone. You might try this with 223 brass and make sure to size the shoulder a little at a time until the brass with just bearly allow the bolt to close completely.

Sorry for the long post -- just wanted to be clear.
I hope this is of help. If it is not let me know -- I will try to think more on it. I can try talking on the phone if that might help.

John

[Kanttori]

Hello,

Almost a year since I began this thread. I got so pissed off with the upper / ammo not working that I just forgot about it. Now I here again. Still having the same problem..Im off to make a few test shells...be back in 20mins :D

[Kanttori]

Ok,

I made a yet another dummy round..I installed the round on the bolt and helping with my fingers I rode the round into the chamber...pulled the charging handle and the round flew across the room.

Also, I tried an unformed .221 firball brass...with the bolt back I put the case into the chamber, released the bolt..pulled the charging handle...and nothing...turning the upper upside down and giving the case a gentle tap with a rod it fell out without any resistance.

[Kanttori]

here are some measurements

Total lenght of the cartridge: 2.15-2.22 [I have tried various lenghts]
Total lenght of the case: 1.3575-1.3665 [the brass is new untrimmed Remington brass]
Outside dia of the round just after the bullet: 0.328
and just before the shoulder: 0.330
and just after the shoulder: 0.356
and before the rim: 0.373
and lenght from the bottom of the cartridge to the shoulder: 1.084 (measured from the narrower beginning of the shoulder)
and from the shoulder to the mouth of the case: 0.281

I hope someone can help me!

:(

[Kanttori]

and here's a few pics of the "#¤"#%&¤ rounds

These are the "proper" ones....at least they should be

http://img468.imageshack.us/img468/5363/scope0202ut.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

http://img468.imageshack.us/img468/636/scope0213wk.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

[Kanttori]

And a few faulty ones

http://img468.imageshack.us/img468/802/scope0227sl.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

[Quarterbore]

I need to get my reloading press out and see but the only time I ever had this kind of problem was when I was trying to crimp handgun loads.

I did have a couple cases get funky on me when I resized from 221 Fireball up to the 300/221 but that was just a few rounds and most of those were lube related....

I do like the looks of those black heavies on your loads... what bullet is that?

I use Redding Dies on a RCBS Rockkchucker press and they are not true "Whipser" dies but instead the 300/221 clone but I don't remember having the kinds of issues you are having but I have not reloaded 300/221 in a couple years now and my mind is less then trustworthy :confused:

[Kanttori]

Thanks!

The black bullets are Lapua Scenar 12g moly HPBT bullets. Also, do you notice the ring maybe 1/3 down from the tip? I suppose it's from touching the rifling[?] The overall lenght is the same as with 5.56....is this an indication these should be shorter??

Edit: or it can be from the seater die[?]

[Quarterbore]

I would assume that is from the seater die as did you cycle these through your rifle? Do another and look at it before you stick it in a gun. As for the chamber of your barrel, that is an interesting question and the way I test a bullet for maximum overall length is to blacken the bullet with caron (harder with an already black bullet) and then cycle the bolt and look for signs tha the bullet is hitting the rifling.

Now, I do that with Bolt Guns where I want the bullet to be "just" off the rifling. With a semi-auto you don't want the COL to be that close and if your barrel has a proper chamber for the bigger bullets this should be a non-issue at a length that will fit inside a magazine.

I saw a reference to an upper, are you loading for an AR-15?

[Kanttori]

Yes, I'm loading for AR-15.

[TORSTEIN]

Look like you are up to your neck in trouble here.
Two brains is better than one, but we may not come up with a big fix because of that. He he.
If you want, I can call you up.
e-mail me, or send private messeage if you do not want to post your phone number(& country code) on this site.
Also what time?(I do not know where in the world you live, so state time + or - G.M.T.)

Best regards

Torstein

[Kanttori]

Torstein,

Thanks for the offer but I think it's better to solve this problem here on the board so others can benefit from the knowledge as well.

[TORSTEIN]

Phone is the fast way to a fix.
But by no means, I am more than happy to use the board.

Q1: Who made the upper?

Q2: Was the bolt(and barrel) included in the deal?

Q3: At the same time?

[Kanttori]

Phone is the fast way to a fix.
But by no means, I am more than happy to use the board.

Q1: Who made the upper?

Q2: Was the bolt(and barrel) included in the deal?

Q3: At the same time?


1. The actual upper receiver is made by Bushmaster but the barrel & chamber are custom made.

2. Barrel yes, bolt no.

3. No

As a side note, the upper is supposedly test fired for function, without any problems. Of course I cannot verify this but there are no reason to assume otherwise.

[jripper]

It's been a while. I have a couple of questions. Are the bulged rounds fired rounds, or are they coming straight from the press like this?

Are you using new brass, or fired brass?

Do the good rounds in the picture run through your gun?

Do you have any access to Corbon Factory ammo? If so, try this and see if you have the same problems.

Joel

[jripper]

Before you answer, I have two suggestions.

1. Since you are using dummies, seat the bullet considerably deeper, and try the dummy that did not work again (don't use a bulged case).

2. Also, if they are coming out of the press bulged, again, do not run the expander stem all the way down. raise it up until it just fully expands the neck.

It reallly sounds like number 1 here. If you are seating the bullet real close to the rifling, the bullet may be getting stuck on the rifling. I ran into this problem with 125 Remington bullets. If you ease the rounds into chamber, they may extract fine, but they may not be actually going as far as they would if the bolt/spring pushed them in.

Even though the OAL may be OK for some bullets, and they fit in the magazine, many bullets have different contours, even the same weight bullets from differnet companies. The contour on one brand may be enough that it will not hit the rifllings at one specific OAL, but a diffeerent brand's contour, even at the same OAL, may hit the rifling. the bullet will stick, and the round will not extract easily. If the bullet sticks hard enough, and it is a new, non fire formed case, that has some extra space in the chamber, the force of the bolt/spring could possibly even be causing the neck bulges.

Seat the bullets deeper and give it a try.

Joel

[TORSTEIN]

It`s hard to work in the dark, not having the gun and components in hand.
If you will be my eyes, we give it a shot.

I think you have one (or more) of the following problems:
1. Reloading
2. Headspace not to spec.(case)
3. Headspace not to spec.(gun)
4. Parts out of spec.

We will make a dummy round(only one).

If you have the Redding 3 die set, take die marked 300/221 REM NK M3 and hide it. Do not use this one in your AR.

Use FL die marked 300/221 REM FL M3.

If possible use single stage press.

We will not follow the Redding instructions for this one.

Work with new 221 rem case, if by hand.


FL DIE
Use 270 tapered size button. Adjust it so the decapping stem is 3.0 mm out of the die.

Move ram all the way up and hold tension on the handle.
Set Fl die against ram.
Lower ram. Adjust die in 1/2 turn.
Ram up+tension. Lock the nut.
Look between ram and die.
Note where the contact point is.(see some light/no light?)
Lube case.
Insert case. Ram up+tension. Is the contact point the same?
If so, move on.
If not. The tapered size button butt against the "floor" of the case. Back it up some and repeat test.

Repeat all of the above with .30 tapered size button.

Trim case to 1.30"
Chamfer inside&out.


WHAT IS MY C.O.L.???
Close the bolt. Take yout cleaning rod(not the threaded open end, but flat end) and insert it from muzzle end until it touch the bolt.
Mark rod at muzzle. Remove bolt assy.
Insert bullet of your choise in chamber. Hold bullet against rifling with a pensil. Insert rod. Mark at muzzle.
Difference between marks is max C.O.L.
Subtract 0.1" from this measurement. (For use in this test only)
This is what C.O.L. is for test


BULLET SEATING DIE
Ram(with case) up+tension. Adjust die down until you feel a little resistance. Back die up 1/2 turn and lock it down.(=no crimp)

Insert bullet to C.O.L.(for test)

This is your dummy round.

What would I say next???
Run to your gun and.......
NO NO NO.

Pleace do not do it.

Wait for me.(more instructions. He he he)

Post when ready.

Have a nice day.

[Kanttori]

Torstein and Jripper, thanks a ton in advance. Too bad I've been extremely busy the past few days...all the christmas stuff..I hope I can make it to the press on 25th.

Thanks again!

[Kanttori]

Jripper,

I have somewhat solved the bulging problem. Obviously the seater die is a crimping one, so I adjusted it further up and it's not bulging the cases anymore. The rounds in the picture won't extract, but they don't get stuck in the chamber either. Also, there's a pic of the bulged rounds that obviously don't work at all.

[jripper]

It looks like we have cut most of the variables, and I have to agree with the others that it must be a head spacing problem.

I would send it back to whoever made it, and have them look at it.

As far as I can tell, it can only be headspacing or the chamber deminsions out or of spec.

Good luck.

Joel