help me build the ultimate silenced hunter

[SwampF0X]

Hi guys. I'm looking to build a silenced subsonic deer hunting rifle. Ranges will be from 10 yards up to 200 yards (extreme). I'd like to keep this rifle as short as possible, so I'll need either an integral suppressor, bullpup stock, or a SBR. I'd like to skip the SBR if possible, and if I convert my AR the bullpup is out.... I already have a Oly Arms AR 15 that I can modify.

Necessities:

1. Must have sufficient power to take out deer sized animals @ 200 yards and closer

2. I want the flattest trajectory possible out to 200 yards. I'd rather not think of rise and fall of the bullet when shooting.................just point and click/pffft

3. I want a bullet that will expand on impact and produce a nice wound channel and a quick kill at subsonic velocities.

4. I want this rifle to be as silent as possible so what do you recommend as far as silencers go? Weight is of little concern.

5. Reliability is of great importance as is accuracy. 3" groups at 200yrds is acceptable. 1.5" @ 100yrds. Tighter is always better.

6. Of coarse I want to keep my spending as low as possible.

I've been looking at the AR 300 whisper and the Ruger 44mag carbine, but I have been unsuccessful in finding accurate trajectory charts for different loads and calibers.

With the 300 whisper I can use my AR as a build platform. Model 1 has 300 whisper barrels at a decent price and I can use the upper receiver and handguards from my AR as well as other parts.............I have no use for a .223. I would need to have some machine work done to it to make it exactly what I want, but that shouldn't be a big problem with all the machinists around here :grin:


So................what do you guys recommend and why?

Thanks for taking the time to read this. Thanks even more for answering my questions. :grin:

swampf0x

[Alleycat]

If you want to go cheap and EZ I would:
1 Go with a 44 mag or 45 Colt. Cheap bullets that will expand.
2 Not going to happen. Your best bet is to get a Pride fowler 3x9 .22 scope. It has drop compensation out to 200 yds. It is your best and cheapest bet.
3 refer to (1)
4 A subsonic 44 mag will work in a good 45 acp Suppressor. If you plan on shooting hot loads get a custom can. Elite Iron will make you one for a reasonable price.
5&6 H&R rifle. Cheap and they shoot good.


If you do an AR the price will go up quite a bit. 458 SOCOM is my choice. I use a custom bullet for hunting and a cheap bullet for play. ($2 a piece for hunting $0.50 for play) You will also need a gas cutoff to get it as quiet as possible. The Whisper works good when you pick your shots. It will not act like a normal deer rifle. Most of the deer I have shot jump a little, go about 20 yds, stop, and look around. Then they just fall over. The larger guns knock the crap out of them.


As bullet diameter goes up so does sound, but I must admit the .44s I've heard are quiet.

[SwampF0X]

Thank you for your quick responce and the recomendation. I may however need someone to help me through this process. OK, Most of my shots will be under 100yrds. IF......IF I was to see a big granddaddy monster buck out to 200yrds..................I would have to try it :D

Soooooo, I should be asking................

1. ***what subsonic caliber will give me the flattest trajectory out to 100yrds? Better yet, does anyone have trajectory charts for any/all subsonic loads?

2. what caliber is best on deer inside of 100yrds.? I rarely have shots outside that. I would really like to see some mushrooming when the bullet hits meat (44mag), but it's OK if it doesn't, as long as a good clean well placed shot will put the animal down quickly(300 whisper?), mushrooming is not a necessity.

From my research thus far the 300 whisper seems to be THE best choice for hunting. I'm just looking for other/better solutions.

thanks,
swampf0x

thanks,
swampf0x

[Hoser]

Thats a tall order...

Heavy subsonic bullets drop like a brick past 100 yards. I shoot 220s out to 400 or so yards with a 200 yard zero.

Being subsonic, most bullets tend to not expand very well as they are designed to expand at much higher velocities.

[Alleycat]

Trajectory of the bullet has little to do with bullet weight or diameter. It's has everything to do with ballistic coefficient and velocity. Here is a 20gr vs a 900gr bullet with a .500 BC. Higher BCs will help at long range, but out to 200 yds you will not notice much. As far as 300 Whisper. If you can honestly let a good deer walk rather than take a questionable shot, get one. You need to have a good broadside shot every time. There are expandable bullets. Well one commercially available bullet. The .44,.45,.458,.510 will save you when the shot is a little off the mark. There are a wider variety of expandable bullets for them and to be honest larger caliber stuff does not need to expand. .45 Colt with hard cast will kill any deer. The 300 Whisper in an AR will allow a fast follow up shot. The problem is, no one knows your hunting style more than you. I have 300 Whisper and a 458 SOCOM and love them both. Both have killed deer. Both are ARs. The 300 is like shooting them with a knife blade. The 458 is a lot like a 40mm grenade. As far as trajectory tables go, let me know what bullet you would like to shoot and I will post the chart. There will not be much difference. If you get some standard velocity .22 lr stuff and shoot it out to 200 yds you will get a good idea of what you are getting into.

Name: Test
Ballistic Coeff: 0.500
Bullet Weight: 20
Velocity: 1050
Target Distance: 100
Scope Height: 1.500
Temperature: 70
Altitude: 500

Ballistic Data
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Range Elevation Velocity Energy
0 yds -1.50 in 1050 fps 49 fpe
25 yds 1.94 in 1038 fps 48 fpe
50 yds 3.37 in 1027 fps 47 fpe
75 yds 2.73 in 1016 fps 46 fpe
100 yds 0.00 in 1006 fps 45 fpe
125 yds -4.89 in 996 fps 44 fpe
150 yds -11.88 in 986 fps 43 fpe
175 yds -21.14 in 977 fps 42 fpe
200 yds -32.71 in 969 fps 42 fpe
225 yds -46.62 in 960 fps 41 fpe
250 yds -62.92 in 952 fps 40 fpe
275 yds -81.63 in 944 fps 40 fpe
300 yds -102.78 in 936 fps 39 fpe
325 yds -126.38 in 928 fps 38 fpe
350 yds -152.45 in 921 fps 38 fpe
375 yds -181.01 in 914 fps 37 fpe
400 yds -212.08 in 907 fps 36 fpe
425 yds -246.24 in 900 fps 36 fpe
450 yds -282.40 in 893 fps 35 fpe
475 yds -321.38 in 886 fps 35 fpe
500 yds -363.20 in 880 fps 34 fpe
525 yds -407.89 in 874 fps 34 fpe
550 yds -455.48 in 867 fps 33 fpe
575 yds -506.01 in 861 fps 33 fpe
600 yds -559.49 in 855 fps 32 fpe


Name: tast
Ballistic Coeff: 0.500
Bullet Weight: 900
Velocity: 1050
Target Distance: 100
Scope Height: 1.500
Temperature: 70
Altitude: 500

Ballistic Data
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Range Elevation Velocity Energy
0 yds -1.50 in 1050 fps 2203 fpe
25 yds 1.94 in 1038 fps 2154 fpe
50 yds 3.37 in 1027 fps 2107 fpe
75 yds 2.73 in 1016 fps 2063 fpe
100 yds 0.00 in 1006 fps 2022 fpe
125 yds -4.89 in 996 fps 1982 fpe
150 yds -11.88 in 986 fps 1945 fpe
175 yds -21.14 in 977 fps 1909 fpe
200 yds -32.71 in 969 fps 1874 fpe
225 yds -46.62 in 960 fps 1842 fpe
250 yds -62.92 in 952 fps 1810 fpe
275 yds -81.63 in 944 fps 1780 fpe
300 yds -102.78 in 936 fps 1750 fpe
325 yds -126.38 in 928 fps 1722 fpe
350 yds -152.45 in 921 fps 1695 fpe
375 yds -181.01 in 914 fps 1668 fpe
400 yds -212.08 in 907 fps 1642 fpe
425 yds -246.24 in 900 fps 1618 fpe
450 yds -282.40 in 893 fps 1593 fpe
475 yds -321.38 in 886 fps 1570 fpe
500 yds -363.20 in 880 fps 1547 fpe
525 yds -407.89 in 874 fps 1525 fpe
550 yds -455.48 in 867 fps 1503 fpe
575 yds -506.01 in 861 fps 1482 fpe
600 yds -559.49 in 855 fps 1461 fpe

[SwampF0X]

I just received an email from SSK. They told me that they are working on a 300 whisper bullet that WILL expand at subsonic velocities, and they are almost finished. I don't know anything else about that bullet but more than likely............that's what I want to shoot.

I still haven't given up on the 44mag or any of the other large calibers. I just think the 300 will shoot straighter, farther.

swampf0x

[Colohunter]

Berrys mfg is also looking at making a bullet for the Whisper. They use a softer lead in their bullets and could possibly come out with an expanding bullet. A rep from Berrys started a thread here, feel free to tell them how much you would like to see them add a new bullet to their line up.

[Alleycat]

If you like the 300 get it, but it will not shoot "straighter" then any other subsonic stuff.



Name: 240/ 300
Ballistic Coeff: 0.700
Bullet Weight: 240
Velocity: 1050
Target Distance: 100
Scope Height: 1.500
Temperature: 70
Altitude: 500

Ballistic Data
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Range Elevation Velocity Energy
0 yds -1.50 in 1050 fps 587 fpe
25 yds 1.91 in 1041 fps 578 fpe
50 yds 3.32 in 1033 fps 569 fpe
75 yds 2.69 in 1025 fps 560 fpe
100 yds 0.00 in 1018 fps 552 fpe
125 yds -4.79 in 1010 fps 544 fpe
150 yds -11.69 in 1003 fps 536 fpe
175 yds -20.79 in 996 fps 529 fpe
200 yds -31.93 in 989 fps 521 fpe
225 yds -45.33 in 983 fps 514 fpe
250 yds -61.01 in 976 fps 508 fpe

Name: 530/458
Ballistic Coeff: 0.400
Bullet Weight: 530
Velocity: 1050
Target Distance: 100
Scope Height: 1.500
Temperature: 70
Altitude: 500

Ballistic Data
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Range Elevation Velocity Energy
0 yds -1.50 in 1050 fps 1297 fpe
25 yds 1.97 in 1035 fps 1261 fpe
50 yds 3.41 in 1022 fps 1228 fpe
75 yds 2.78 in 1008 fps 1197 fpe
100 yds 0.00 in 996 fps 1167 fpe
125 yds -4.90 in 984 fps 1140 fpe
150 yds -12.08 in 973 fps 1114 fpe
175 yds -21.59 in 962 fps 1089 fpe
200 yds -33.47 in 952 fps 1066 fpe
225 yds -47.77 in 942 fps 1044 fpe
250 yds -64.50 in 932 fps 1022 fpe


About 1.5 @ 200 yds.

[ohnomrbillk]

Alleycat,
What ballistic software are you running?
Thanks

[Alleycat]

Pointblank, PCB, and http://test.iostreamwebdesign.com/BOTW/. All free :smile:

[Colorado Osprey]

I know the 243WSSM is not Sub-sonic....not even close, but with a supressor it is pretty quiet.
Check out this video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vE5LlYqgcys

The doe gets a little spooked when her buddy goes down, but no very....
When the 1st shot misses her head she didn't even move!

[SwampF0X]

Could you do a trajectory chart of the 458 @ 3000' above sea level,@ 50 degrees, and the scope mounted 2" above center
with a zero @ 75 yards (or what ever range would best suite it)

You are referring to the 458 socom right? And the bullet doesn't drop signifacuntly more than the lighter rounds? The large caliber 458 seems to have more knockdown power without sacrificing velocity. Can I use my AR as a platform?

[Alleycat]

http://i830.photobucket.com/albums/zz229/alleycat72_bucket/458Socom10-13-09004.jpg


It works in this AR...



Name: 458 Socom 530 Outlaw
Ballistic Coeff: 0.400
Bullet Weight: 530
Velocity: 1050
Target Distance: 75
Scope Height: 2.000
Temperature: 50
Altitude: 3000

Ballistic Data
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Range Elevation Velocity Energy
0 yds -2.00 in 1050 fps 1297 fpe
25 yds 0.71 in 1036 fps 1263 fpe
50 yds 1.39 in 1023 fps 1231 fpe
75 yds 0.00 in 1010 fps 1201 fpe
100 yds -3.54 in 999 fps 1173 fpe
125 yds -9.17 in 987 fps 1147 fpe
150 yds -17.05 in 976 fps 1122 fpe
175 yds -27.25 in 966 fps 1098 fpe
200 yds -39.82 in 956 fps 1075 fpe
225 yds -54.77 in 946 fps 1054 fpe
250 yds -72.16 in 937 fps 1033 fpe
275 yds -92.00 in 928 fps 1013 fpe
300 yds -114.31 in 919 fps 994 fpe
325 yds -139.11 in 911 fps 976 fpe
350 yds -166.42 in 902 fps 958 fpe
375 yds -196.69 in 894 fps 941 fpe
400 yds -229.30 in 887 fps 925 fpe
425 yds -264.76 in 879 fps 909 fpe
450 yds -303.10 in 871 fps 894 fpe
475 yds -344.36 in 864 fps 879 fpe
500 yds -388.55 in 857 fps 864 fpe




Name: 458 Socom 530 Outlaw
Ballistic Coeff: 0.400
Bullet Weight: 530
Velocity: 1050
Target Distance: 100
Scope Height: 2.000
Temperature: 50
Altitude: 3000

Ballistic Data
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Range Elevation Velocity Energy
0 yds -2.00 in 1050 fps 1297 fpe
25 yds 1.59 in 1036 fps 1263 fpe
50 yds 3.16 in 1023 fps 1231 fpe
75 yds 2.65 in 1010 fps 1201 fpe
100 yds 0.00 in 999 fps 1173 fpe
125 yds -4.74 in 987 fps 1147 fpe
150 yds -11.74 in 976 fps 1122 fpe
175 yds -21.06 in 966 fps 1098 fpe
200 yds -32.74 in 956 fps 1075 fpe
225 yds -46.81 in 946 fps 1054 fpe
250 yds -63.31 in 937 fps 1033 fpe
275 yds -82.26 in 928 fps 1013 fpe
300 yds -103.69 in 919 fps 994 fpe
325 yds -127.61 in 911 fps 976 fpe
350 yds -154.03 in 902 fps 958 fpe
375 yds -183.41 in 894 fps 941 fpe
400 yds -215.15 in 887 fps 925 fpe
425 yds -249.72 in 879 fps 909 fpe
450 yds -287.18 in 871 fps 894 fpe
475 yds -327.55 in 864 fps 879 fpe
500 yds -370.86 in 857 fps 864 fpe



Name: 458 Socom 530 Outlaw
Ballistic Coeff: 0.400
Bullet Weight: 530
Velocity: 1050
Target Distance: 125
Scope Height: 2.000
Temperature: 50
Altitude: 3000

Ballistic Data
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Range Elevation Velocity Energy
0 yds -2.00 in 1050 fps 1297 fpe
25 yds 2.54 in 1036 fps 1263 fpe
50 yds 5.06 in 1023 fps 1231 fpe
75 yds 5.50 in 1010 fps 1201 fpe
100 yds 3.79 in 999 fps 1173 fpe
125 yds 0.00 in 987 fps 1147 fpe
150 yds -6.05 in 976 fps 1122 fpe
175 yds -14.42 in 966 fps 1098 fpe
200 yds -25.15 in 956 fps 1075 fpe
225 yds -38.28 in 946 fps 1054 fpe
250 yds -53.83 in 937 fps 1033 fpe
275 yds -71.83 in 928 fps 1013 fpe
300 yds -92.31 in 919 fps 994 fpe
325 yds -115.28 in 911 fps 976 fpe
350 yds -140.76 in 902 fps 958 fpe
375 yds -169.19 in 894 fps 941 fpe
400 yds -199.98 in 887 fps 925 fpe
425 yds -233.60 in 879 fps 909 fpe
450 yds -270.11 in 871 fps 894 fpe
475 yds -309.53 in 864 fps 879 fpe
500 yds -351.89 in 857 fps 864 fpe



338 Specter is a good one on an AR platform 2. The supersonic ammo in most of the rounds sound like a .22lr with mini-mags. ARs are a little louder.

[SwampF0X]

OK, I'm totally confused now. Are you basically saying that any diameter bullet, no matter the weight, fired from 1050fps has a very close trajectory out to 200yards?????

Will the 338 fired at sub sonic speeds mushroom any? Will it penetrate a deers shoulder bone?

I didn't realize I had so many choices. I would like to modify my AR. But, not if it's gonna cost significantly more than buying another rifle and suppressor.

I've been looking at some of the Ruger 44mag rifles. A suppressed 96/44 sounds nice and very quiet. If a suppressor were built into the factory barrel (integral) would the twist rate be to slow to shoot good?

thanks,
swampf0x

[Rikky Lee]

Within reason - yes. But subsonics have a rainbow like trajectory and you need to do your homework at all the ranges from 50 to 200 to make sure you have the correct zero.

A 338 Matchking will dump a lot of energy on the way through, but subsonic hunting is more like bow hunting with its effect. Many people get a reaction like an arrow - slow bleed out and collapse - unless you go through the head or spine. A 350/300 grain 338 at 1050 will penetrate a deer and hopefully tumble on the way through. Check out the 338 Whisper footage on U Tube on the hogs.

44 mag factory barrels do not do well at subsonic velocities due to their twist rate. But with a faster barrel twist there is a lot of potential - but you do not get the longer range potential available from the heavy rifle bullets like Matchkings.

So, subsonic one shot kill every time with minimal meat damage out to 200? Either head shots with a 300 Whisper or 338 Whisper or go to bigger with the 458 Socom.

EDIT: just picked up this eyewitness story of shooting deer with the SOCOM

Quote

I used the TTSX on my Buck. The load was 31.5gr H110 and oal was 2.255in. I didn't have time to really get the load working or chrony it but it was shooting into 6" at 100 yards. I am using a RRA upper/RRA carbine lower and a Nikon Prostaff 2x-7x scope with the RRA high mount. I saw the deer coming thru the woods and stood up in my tree stand. I took him @ about 80 yards right behind the left shoulder. The ball angled thru him and out in front of the right rear leg. He jumped his rear end into the air and took off. He made it thru an old river bed about 70 yards from where I hit him. I don't understand how he ran off as when we field dressed him his whole insides looked like scrambled eggs from the heart down. The entrance hole was big enough to get "four" fingers into and the exit was about "three fingers".
We blood tracked him from about five yards from where I hit him right up to where we found him. The blood trail was getting bigger the closer we got to him. We could not recover the ball as it went clean thru. I really like this ball for all the damage it caused. I killed my first Deer when I was 12 years and am now 66 and have hunted all over the US. I like this weapon and load best of any I have used. I might also add he was a "BIG BOY" we couldn't get him up on the four wheeler and had to rig a pully/strap/winch to lift him off of the ground to get him on the rack. I got 68 lbs of Jerky and three rolls of summer sausage from him and his est. field dressed wt. was 240 lbs.

Unquote

FWIW

[Alleycat]

Only two factors determine a bullets external ballistics. BC and velocity. Two bullets that have the same shape and ratio of length to width will have the same BC regardless of their relative weights. At 200 yds or less a bullets BC will not come into play as much. The high BC bullets will shed velocity slower than low BC bullets. At 500 or 600 yds this will make a big difference, but you are not interested in shooting steel at 500 yds. You have to understand that the 300 Whisper was designed to shoot bad guys out to 300 meters. Deer will react different. Match Kings will let you down. The theory of MKs is that they will turn (tumble) in the deer and cut a wound that looks like a knife went through it. Mks don't always do this. My experience is a 50/50 chance. When they work it is spectacular, but you will loose deer. The larger caliber bullets do more damage and do not rely on the bullet turning. I will include a pic of a 300 Whisper kill and a 458 SOCOM. Both are expanding. I suggest you get a ballistic program and play with it some. Get onto youtube and listen to Whispers and .44s SOCOM and whatever. In the end I am some guy you never met, but I have been there and done that.


http://lmgtfy.com/?q=youtube+suppressed+rifle

This is a thread on the .44 mag. Will a 240 .44 bullet kill a deer? Nope you have to use a 300 gr :smile:
http://www.silencertalk.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=41897


http://i830.photobucket.com/albums/zz229/alleycat72_bucket/th_2009_1122outlaw00291.jpg (http://s830.photobucket.com/albums/zz229/alleycat72_bucket/?action=view&current=2009_1122outlaw00291.jpg)



http://i830.photobucket.com/albums/zz229/alleycat72_bucket/th_Deer016.jpg (http://s830.photobucket.com/albums/zz229/alleycat72_bucket/?action=view&current=Deer016.jpg)

[SwampF0X]

Ok, as far as calibers go trajectory differences doesn't matter for my use so why not throw the heaviest bullet. So the 458 SOCOM looks to be my #1 choice. Your's looks great. I'm wanting something like that. Is the lower a normal 5.56 size? What would it cost me to set my AR up like that? How loud is it suppressed? I tried to look it up on the net but couldn't find much about it.

swampf0x

[Rikky Lee]

http://www.teppojutsu.com/458.htm

http://458socomforums.com/

just to get you started.

[Alleycat]

It is a standard AR 15 lower. Mine is a TI. RRA has complete guns as well. If you want a SBR you will need to Form 1 the lower and have it engraved. Orion Arms is the best place to go and get it done. $70

http://orion-arms.com/

There are some guys on this forum that may put an upper together for you.
Teppo Jutsu makes a great gun. It will take a while, but he is a hell of a guy and does top notch work. I am still awaiting my suppressor, but here is a vid of a form 1 suppressor jmorris did. I believe he posts hear.


http://s121.photobucket.com/albums/o213/jmorrismetal/can/?action=view&current=m41kf1.flv

[fasttwist]

nice lungs i think i need them on a coffee mug.Only two factors determine a bullets external ballistics. BC and velocity. Two bullets that have the same shape and ratio of length to width will have the same BC regardless of their relative weights. At 200 yds or less a bullets BC will not come into play as much. The high BC bullets will shed velocity slower than low BC bullets. At 500 or 600 yds this will make a big difference, but you are not interested in shooting steel at 500 yds. You have to understand that the 300 Whisper was designed to shoot bad guys out to 300 meters. Deer will react different. Match Kings will let you down. The theory of MKs is that they will turn (tumble) in the deer and cut a wound that looks like a knife went through it. Mks don't always do this. My experience is a 50/50 chance. When they work it is spectacular, but you will loose deer. The larger caliber bullets do more damage and do not rely on the bullet turning. I will include a pic of a 300 Whisper kill and a 458 SOCOM. Both are expanding. I suggest you get a ballistic program and play with it some. Get onto youtube and listen to Whispers and .44s SOCOM and whatever. In the end I am some guy you never met, but I have been there and done that.


http://lmgtfy.com/?q=youtube+suppressed+rifle

This is a thread on the .44 mag. Will a 240 .44 bullet kill a deer? Nope you have to use a 300 gr :smile:
http://www.silencertalk.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=41897


http://i830.photobucket.com/albums/zz229/alleycat72_bucket/th_2009_1122outlaw00291.jpg (http://s830.photobucket.com/albums/zz229/alleycat72_bucket/?action=view&current=2009_1122outlaw00291.jpg)



http://i830.photobucket.com/albums/zz229/alleycat72_bucket/th_Deer016.jpg (http://s830.photobucket.com/albums/zz229/alleycat72_bucket/?action=view&current=Deer016.jpg)

[SwampF0X]

I assume the above video is of a .458 SOCOM? If so, the noise level is probably acceptable, although some of the videos of the integral .44 mag are even quieter.

swampf0x

[Rikky Lee]

The automatic gain on the microphone distorts and amplifies silencers.

A 44 mag may sound quieter but will it give you the 200 yards range you are looking for?

[SwampF0X]

I see no reason that it wouldn't give me 200yrds. If the trajectory chart says that "practically" any bullet launched at 1050fps has very close the same trajectory out to at least 200yrds....................I see no reason the 44mag (special) wouldn't do it.

Sure would be nice to have a suppressed SBR'd Bullpup in .458 SOCOM :D

swampf0x

[Alleycat]

When looking at videos remember the only way to compare two guns is to video them at the same time with the same recorder. It is still not the best judge of a setup, but will give you an idea. The second thing is that ARs are louder than bolt guns especially from the port side. You need a three position gas block or a gas cut off to compare a bolt gun to an AR. In the video he was comparing a suppressor he made in 458 to a factory suppressor in 223 with a 55 gr bullet. The first gun in reality sounds like a unsuppressed 22 LR HV. The 458 would not have a sonic crack. I know its hard to figure out what is best suited for you. That why most of us have multiple NFA toys. Most get a .22 LR and a 30 cal. After that things get weird. Do you know if there are any shooting ranges in you area that allows NFA? If so, see if you can listen first hand.

[Rikky Lee]

The SOCOM is using an approx 500 grain projectile over the 240 grain 44 Mag in a factory carbine for the similar velocity. The 300 grain loads are supersonic in the SOCOM.

[redtazdog]

The 458 Socom is not as quiet as the 44mag even with the best subsonic load and both in a single shot gun.

I like my Socom but my 44mag with 300 grn pills are my choice
for a real quiet hog and deer killer up to 200 yrds.

[Rikky Lee]

factory barrel or after-market with a faster twist for the 44 mag?

[redtazdog]

I'm using a 1:11 twist Douglas barrel so 240+ grn bullets fly
accurate in my 44mag.
http://i197.photobucket.com/albums/aa166/redtazdog/TC44magintegral2w.jpg
.
My AR 458
http://i197.photobucket.com/albums/aa166/redtazdog/AR458Socom3w.jpg
http://i197.photobucket.com/albums/aa166/redtazdog/AR458Socom8w.jpg

[SwampF0X]

Maybe I could get a Ruger 44mag carbine, have a custom aluminum bull pup stock made (I know of a guy) Put a faster twist barrel on it, SBR it if needed, and a 45 acp suppressor. How does that sound for a short easy to handle deer rifle out to a Maximum of 200yrds?

Most of my hunting will be from a small blind, so compactness is important to me. I hunt on my familys farm and there is a property boundry dispute between us and them. The land has been surveyed several times and they all match within a couple of inches. Our fence is inside that surveyed line by a few inches. I'm legal but there's always someone trying to start trouble. Anyways, I'd rather keep things quiet to avoid confrentations with the neighbors. I also need to drop the deer where he stands. God forbid if my deer ran across the fence. Then there would be lots of trouble started..................so, does a Ruger 44mag sound good to everyone? Does my plan sound solid? Or do I need the extra weight the 458 SOCOM offers? Which would be cheaper to build, buy the Ruger and start from scratch or modify my AR upper?

thanks,
swampf0x

[Alleycat]

You will get no argument from me about the .44 mag. It is vary capable. If you go that route, a .45 acp host would soon follow.:smile: Rebarreling your upper would be cheaper than setting up a new gun, but I would not let that stop me. Don't skimp on the suppressor. Get the best you can afford. You will be glad you did. Just don't shoot full power loads through that acp can and you will be good to go.

[SwampF0X]

OK we got 2 thumbs up for the 44mag but it will cost more than modifying my AR upper to fire .458 SOCOM.

Well...............I wanted to mod my AR anyways, plus it will be cheaper and more powerful than the 44mag. The 44mag could be considerably shorter without SBRing it though and probably half the size of an AR if I did go the SBR route...........................decisions, decisions.

Who should I go with to re-build my upper into a 458 SOCOM and how much is it gonna cost me? Please include the best choice in a suppressor in the cost, if you don't mind.

I truely appreciate you guys helping me out.

swampf0x

[Alleycat]

http://www.srtarms.com/7744.htm

For the 44 mag this would be a good option. The 77/44 is on the net for about $550 + SRT integral $785 + optional fast twist barrel $345 = $1680. This will do every thing you want to do plus it will probably handle the hottest loads you can find. This is the gun you are seeing on youtube.
I like it.


You could use a factory 77/44 or Encore with 240s possibly 300s and an a 45 acp suppressor. The gun would be $550 to $600. Suppressors would run from $450 to $1150. You would be limited to subsonic ammo

http://teppojutsu.com/welcome.htm

Send him an e-mail. He can tell you exactly what a barrel and bolt for your AR will cost. Swapping an AR barrel is fairly easy. Your local gunsmith should do it for a minimal cost. Rikky Lee is putting one together he may have a source on barrels as well. I say no more than $350 for the barrel. The suppressors can run from $700 to $1400. Elite Iron quoted me a price of $750. You can use the 458 suppressor on multiple host rifles .45 acp 44 mag or what ever.


This does not include you tax stamps. The SRT would be a one stamp gun. I know you want a SBR AR. You can form 1 on you AR in say a 10.5 223. Then just have your gunsmith hack the barrel off. $200 for the tax and $70 for the gun smith to cut and recrown. If you want some other caliber in the future just get an upper and slap it on.

[SwampF0X]

OK....................what about the .45acp, it's subsonic, mushrooms, AR kits are available, they use heavy bullets??????? Screw on cans that I have watched videos of are very quiet. I could SBR it

Or perhaps the 45 Win Mag? I found a few articles on the net where MI Carbines were used as a host for different caliber barrels. 9mm, and 45 win mag seem to be the most common. The 45 Win Mag is pretty much just a longer 45acp case. The M1 Carbine could also be broke down enough to put it in a bullpup stock.

Back to the Ruger 44mag carbine........................It has been replaced by the 99/44 Deerfield. Apparently they are designed off of the Mini 14. Could one of these be suppressed and still operate in semi mode? I know Bullpup stocks (very cheap ones) are made for the Mini 14, so I would think that one could be made for the 99/44. They are close in price to the 77/44mag and I'd prefer a semi auto if it will function.

Neither of the businesses you posted links to are accepting orders right now.

thanks,
swampf0x

[Alleycat]

http://www.mgimilitary.com/store/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=6_8&products_id=39

http://www.pac-nor.com/ They make 458 barrels.

http://www.rockriverarms.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=category.display&category_id=253


You may be hard pressed to get the 45 acp up to 1050. If you are set on a AR SBR do the 458 SOCOM. Regardless of what you do, it will take time. Don't rush into it. There are 458 uppers for sell on http://458socomforums.com/index.php all the time. Call the companies ask them what their times are running. You could be one of the first to do a 450 Bushmaster. At some point you're just going to have to do some leg work and pull the trigger on this project.

[SwampF0X]

I'm not set on doing an AR just yet. I want a very quiet, compact, semi auto deer dropper. Base rifle could be anything from an SBR AR to an M1 carbine rechambered to something bigger, but not so big that the receiver can't handle the stress.

I assume most bullets of the same weight will require close to the same powder charge to launch either bullet at 1050fps. So in theory...............44mag, 44 special, 45 win mag, 450 Bushmaster, 458SOCOM ect will all have pretty much the same pressure, velocity, trajectory, and terminal ballistics.............granted, heavier is better.

ps
thanks for the links.

swampf0x

[redtazdog]

Semi auto and quiet dont work well together compared to a single shot or bolt action quiet.
I have Ar's in 22 lr, 300 Whisper, 9mm, 45acp, 458soc and
even with the best cans out there they dont come close to as quiet
as a closed brech gun.
With my AR 458 i can kill a animal but the others will hear it at 200 yrds easy,
With the 44 mag sigle shot/bolt action they dont hear it at 100 yrds
and I can get another accurate shot on a second and sometimes a third animal before they figure out whats going on.
My single shot TC 510 whisper is much quieter than the AR 458
with sub ammo.
You need to decide how quiet you realy want then decide
semi or single shot as you are the only one here that knows how quiet you need to get the job done.

[SwampF0X]

I watched several videos of suppressed firearms on the net. The semi auto .45acp sounds very quiet to me as do the single shot 44mags. I was hoping to get close the same suppression as what I've watched.
I figured that in a bullpup stock, hunting from a blind (solid structure) most of the action noise would be absorbed by the blind. The muzzle would be the only thing sticking out the window. Is this assumption incorrect?

I want minimal noise in a semi auto. I realize it won't be as quiet as a single shot, but I hope to get close. There isn't a lot of room in these hunting blinds. Full sized rifles are hard to maneuver without making a racket. That's why I want a bullpup so bad. With a bullpup I can have a rifle as short as 25-26" and not have to pay for SBR tax. A full sized 77/44 rifle with an integral is still gonna be longer than that. Add $200 to the price tag, SBR it and it's still longer or at least very close to it.

So, if at all possible..................I want a SA bullpup rifle with an integral suppressor. I want to cause as much damage as possible in this configuration and be decently accurate.

The Ruger 99/44 should be a good start. I know it will need re-barreled and a custom stock will have to be designed and built, plus the integral suppressor. The M1 carbine (with the same modifications) could also be chambered to 45 Win Mag and used, and probably the Ruger 44Mag Carbine as well. I suppose an AK47 could also be used. I saw an AK bullpup somewhere before...............Vector Arms maybe??????????? I'm sure there are others, if you know of a better configuration or better host please inform me.

swampf0x

[Alleycat]

An AK is the loudest option you have mentioned so far. It is a piston gun and vents gas from the tube.

Any thing with a barrel shorter than 16" or an overall length less than 26" will require a tax stamp.


I hate bullpup guns, but to each their own.


My AR is 23" with the suppressor it will be about 34" long. You will not get much shorter than that with an AR.


The shortest gun you will be get will be an Encore type gun. Short barrel it and get the appropriate suppressor. You can even get a folding stock for it. It would be a two stamp gun, but the options are limitless when it comes to caliber.


The larger the bore diameter the louder it will be. The 44 defy this some with the huge internal volume of the integrals they use. Longer barrels are typically quieter than the same gun with a shorter barrel.

What's most important? (Length, single shot, bolt, semi auto, suppression) Pick one and go from there.


For the price of that semi auto + a barrel job you could get an Encore with a .44 mag, 45acp, and a 45-70 barrel. Well at least two barrels. Buy a suppressor suitable for the 45-70 and you could use it on all three.

[Rikky Lee]

From my reading of where this thread is going the Contender is the obvious solution. The other option is something along the lines of a de Lisle carbine but money comes into it.

We live in a world of compromise; using silencers forces us to compromise more. For mine, first shot accuracy with good terminal performance ranks best followed closely by not disturbing the neighbors (the main reason for needing a silencer?).

[redtazdog]

SwampFox
The video's dont realy show you how a gun with a can realy sounds.
as I have a AR 45acp integral too and in a video its sounds close to
the same as my 44mag integral but in person the 44mag wins for quiet.
My next barrel for a TC will be a 45/70 so I can shoot heavy lead subsonic like the AR 458 socom but quieter.
.
This AR 45acp spanks the AR 458 socom in quiet and would probably do what
you need but they are not cheap to build at all.
http://i197.photobucket.com/albums/aa166/redtazdog/AR45SRTIntegeral2websized.jpg

[dvanncvann]

45 acp can be loaded in excess of 1200fps using 45 super brass. Note NOT for use in pistols. AR in 45 acp can run 45 super ala Olympic arms.

http://www.mgimilitary.com/store/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=6_8&products_id=39

http://www.pac-nor.com/ They make 458 barrels.

http://www.rockriverarms.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=category.display&category_id=253


You may be hard pressed to get the 45 acp up to 1050. If you are set on a AR SBR do the 458 SOCOM. Regardless of what you do, it will take time. Don't rush into it. There are 458 uppers for sell on http://458socomforums.com/index.php all the time. Call the companies ask them what their times are running. You could be one of the first to do a 450 Bushmaster. At some point you're just going to have to do some leg work and pull the trigger on this project.

[Alleycat]

http://www.tac15.com/small/
The quietest AR out there. NO TAX STAMP. :grin:

[Scoop]

From my reading of where this thread is going the Contender is the obvious solution. The other option is something along the lines of a de Lisle carbine but money comes into it.

Something like this?........DeLisle Sporter SBR from Valkyrie Arms w/SWR HEMS II
http://www.hunt101.com/data/500/medium/IMG_2107.JPG

or maybe this?......TC Contender With SWR HEMS II Suppressor
http://www.hunt101.com/data/500/medium/IMG_26091.JPG

The Contender is more accurate. The DeLisle is a repeater. The DeLisle is a little shorter (33 inches OAL w/can VS 38 inch OAL for the TC), but the Contender is my favorite. 230 gr GDHP at 1000 fps should be potent whitetail medicine but won't get you to 200 yards without some serious elevation adjustment. Face it, at 150 - 200 yards, you better have a great rangefinder for ANY subsonic cartridge you choose. 3 or 4 yards may be the difference between a hit or a miss at 200 yards because of the trajectories. Also, if you base your expectations (for noise) on what you hear on a video over the internet, you are going to be dissappointed. There's nothing like being there when it comes to evaluating the noise level of any suppressor. My vote goes to the Contender with a quality .45 ACP can. Then sight in at 70-80 yards and keep your shots within 100-125 yards. Just my 2 cents worth. Of course, YMMV.

[redtazdog]

My vote is for a TC integral with a folding stock 44mag or 45acp
folded length 24 inches, open at 34" with 15+ inches of can
for a super quiet slammer.
or a TC in 44mag or 45acp with a 8 inch barrel and a custom fat 12
inch can that will work with a 45-70 barrel too.

[Rikky Lee]

SwampFOX - how are we tracking now? How often is a 200 yard shot going to come into play: sometimes, often or never?

Love the De Lisle but it is a 100 yard option only...

[SwampF0X]

Most shots will be well under 100 yards (probably 50 yards or less). I asked about 200 yards shots just in case a monster buck comes sniffing by. Even with a supersonic 308 win I'm hesitant to shoot past 200 yards.

If I have to go with a full sized rifle, I'd rather get an integral 77/44 or SBR my AR since I could have different uppers to swap around.

Just how quiet is an AR 458 SOCOM suppressed with subsonic ammo?
Could you shoot in the basement and no one upstairs would hear?
Shoot it outside and can't hear it inside?
Shoot it in a holler and can't hear it in the next holler?
Sounds like a .22lr in the next holler?
Something all together different?

I could probably get by with the 45acp for 85% of my hunting but I would hate to loose that extra 15% for "just in case"

The Contenders and Encores are nice but I like to have a second shot if need be, so it's out. The AR will be louder but I need to know how much louder????? Will it sound like gunfire?


swampf0x

[HUNTER2]

Internals are quiter than a screw on (qd). Most 45 cal. atach cans are not hearing safe, but there are a couple of companies that will make what you want, ie bigger is better. Liberty suppressors, Elite Iron and others do a good job...

[Rikky Lee]

Given that distance quoted I think we have gone full circle on the thread and a 300 Whisper or 338 Whisper II with suitable bullets should meet all the criteria.

[HUNTER2]

Just wondering - Has anybody ever played with the 375's? Maybe 375-08.. It is hard to beat the Whisper, but like redtazdog said about the large can. Would be quiet with a little more wt and a better shaped bullet. Lets just say a 200 yds max.. subsonic most of the drag is on the rear. Would a high bc bullet be any more effective, accurate, stable, etc., over a heavy wt 45?

[pmc]

For what laid out I am going to suggest a 308. I have hunted and killed deer with a suppressed 300 Whisper, suppressed 44 mag and suppressed 308 going back 7 seasons.
Whisper
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v356/pmcal/Hunting/Whisper03.jpg

44 mag
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v356/pmcal/Rifles/DSCN2119.jpg

308
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v356/pmcal/Hunting/Psscan.jpg

The main reason I lean toward the 308 is your 200 yard requirement. You will need to have a 1 in 9 or 10 twist to shoot 200 to 220 gr bullets. Spend the money to get really good glass with target turrets. You will then be able shoot supersonic (say 168 gr) and by dialing in extra elevation shoot subsonic (say 220 gr)

Example: My 308 is zero'd with 175 smk at 250 yds @ 2550 fps. To get to a 50 yd zero for a 180 gr RN at 1050 fps I dial in 9 MOA (36 clicks)

You may be thinking about now that is too much trouble. 2 seasons ago I had my subsonic load in and zero'd. Coming across the ridge in front of me was some does and trailing them was a buck. He hung up behind a bush about 100 yds out. I decided to switch loads quickly and dialed back down the elevation. as soon as he steped out from behind the bush I killed him.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v356/pmcal/Hunting/DSCN1582-1-1.jpg

If you did not have a 200 yard requiremnt I would say a 44 mag no question it flat out smacks them when loaded to 44 special levels. A couple of examples
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v356/pmcal/Hunting/DSCN2375.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v356/pmcal/Hunting/DSCN3008.jpg

Here's a video I made comparing all of them
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hq0N1LD937A

HTH

Pmc

[SwampF0X]

Those are some fine looking Bucks you got there. Middle one is very nice.

I already have a Browning BAR in .308 win. Could I just thread it for a can and load way down? I was under the impression that the 308 case was to big for the small amount of powder needed for subsonic velocities. I was also under the impression that the 30 cal bullet would not expand at subsonic velocities, causing minimal damage especially if yardage was misjudged. (Now if a Barns X tripple shock bullet would open up at that velocity..........I'd be all over it.) I'm wanting a larger pistol type bullet to knock the crap out of a deer and cause major damage even if the shot is slightly off. I'm thinking a 45 win mag or 44 special would be just fine, but if I can throw an even heavier bullet at the same velocity with near identical trajectories....................why not? In comes the 458 SOCOM. I can modify my AR to fire the massive bullets and finally get to use some of my mags. (I bought like 10 magpull mags and I haven't even shot 200 rounds through it in over 2 years. LOL 223 is useless to me.)

swampf0x

[pmc]

I completely understand your situation about tight hunting quarters. I hunt small suburban parcels almost exclusively. As small as 10 acres and have subdivisions all around me.

DO you reload? If so then you can load 308 subsonic using trailboss powder. At subsonic velocities most 30 cal bullets do not expand. Shot placement is critical. The 44's expand some because they are HP's. If you can give up some distance the 44 is the way to go.

Knowing what I know today, this is after having killed dozens of deer with subsonics I would NOT build a 300 Whisper again. IF I needed versatility on the cheap I would use a 308. If it is a dedicated gun a 44 is the answer. One other note. Having spent THOUSANDS going down this very same road, If I had to start over from scratch I would certainly look at an encore or contender.

Pmc

[SwampF0X]

Yes I reload. I just don't like the fact that the 30 cal bullet won't expand. I seriously considering the 458 SOCOM on my AR or an intregal 96/44 lever action. I'll have to spend some time deciding what I want.

swampf0x

[dvanncvann]

Hawk makes a thin jacket bullet for the 338 spectre (300 gr I think) that will expand.

[redtazdog]

The AR 458 socom is not quiet compared to the AR's 45acp, 9mm and 300 whisper and sound loud next to a single shot or bolt gun in 300 whisper,
44mag, 357mag and the 510 whisper.
All subsonic ammo used when shot side by side.

[ol' 30-30]

I'm in the same boat but I'm leaning towards what PMC has done with a removable muzzle can (Either an AAC ti-rant or EVO45)

Good info here...keep it coming

[Rikky Lee]

Just from the hunting perspective, this is a series of videos from Norway and Sweden on using a silencer and mostly supersonic rounds. He seems to use the 6.5 x 55 as the cartridge of choice.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W5FCTBlJb54

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FReQHJFtzX8&feature=channel_page

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kwosLYtMBBU&feature=channel_page

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IMoKheaot2o&feature=channel_page

Or the New Zealand experience with a supersonic 204.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2G8jX9xHyU4

Contrast with subsonic 223.

http://s636.photobucket.com/albums/uu86/boogymansc/?action=view&current=002-8.flv

[SwampF0X]

OK, IF I want to use my existing 223 AR magazines in my AR, what caliber options apply? 300 whisper, 6mm/223, 223 rem of coarse, 222 rem, 17 rem, and the 458 socom................anything else?

If I also want to use my existing 223 AR bolt, what are my options? 300 whisper, and of coarse 223 rem, 6mm/223, 222 rem, 17 rem.........................anything else?

Is there any room to spare 'length wise' on a AR 45acp mag? Could it be converted to shoot 45 auto mag loaded subsonic? I onlly ask because I want as much speed as possible (1050fps) and most loads for the 45 acp are closer to 900fps. With just a little bit more case capacity than a 45acp, 1050fps should be possible with 300grain bullets........at least it works out that way in my brain.

swampf0x

[Alleycat]

I say a good side charger upper and a gas cut off will give you the best of both worlds. Shoot it like a bolt gun or a semi auto. I love my Socom so I'm partial, but do what you want. I say that there won't be much difference in a locked AR and a single shot if the barrel length is the same and they have the same suppressor.

[SwampF0X]

The whole point in using the AR as a host is for a quick follow up shot if needed. If I have to give that up to be quiet..........I'm not so sure I want to go that route.

Is anything over 300 grains really necessary to smack em' hard? I use 295grain bullets in my 50 caliber muzzle loader, and it smacks em' hard. Granted the bullet is traveling a bit faster and is a larger diameter, but still..............seems to me that a 300 grain 44 or 45 caliber bullet traveling at 1050 fps would have devastating results on a deer at 100 yards or less and could be used at greater distances if you know your trajectory tables.

swampf0x

[Alleycat]

That's what I am saying. If you get a side charger action for an AR and a gas cut off you can shoot it just like a AR or cut the gas off and shoot it like a bolt gun. With the gas off it will not have the ejection port pop. They make 300 gr bullets for the Socom. Most are for HV, but you can get bullets setup for subsonic expansion. As for the auto mag call some manufacturers and ask them what they think. There may be a reason that we all don't own an AR in those calibers.

[dvanncvann]

OK, IF I want to use my existing 223 AR magazines in my AR, what caliber options apply? 300 whisper, 6mm/223, 223 rem of coarse, 222 rem, 17 rem, and the 458 socom................anything else?

If I also want to use my existing 223 AR bolt, what are my options? 300 whisper, and of coarse 223 rem, 6mm/223, 222 rem, 17 rem.........................anything else?

Is there any room to spare 'length wise' on a AR 45acp mag? Could it be converted to shoot 45 auto mag loaded subsonic? I onlly ask because I want as much speed as possible (1050fps) and most loads for the 45 acp are closer to 900fps. With just a little bit more case capacity than a 45acp, 1050fps should be possible with 300grain bullets........at least it works out that way in my brain.

swampf0x
45 acp can be loaded to over 1200fps using 45 super brass for RIFLE use only. Google for 45 super loads. Starline has brass available. The difference is a thicker web in the case head. Length is the same as regular 45 acp brass.

[Alleycat]

I always wondered about the 45 Rowland.

http://bazookabrothers.com/products2.htm

The blowback thing gets me every time. These uppers fix that problem. The 7.62x25 would be fun and cheap for a plinker.

[kanton]

dvanncvann,

The 45 Super can also be fired from pistols. A detailed writeup is provided here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.45_Super.

One pistol conversion kit is the "45Super"® Gunsmith Fit Conversion Kits by: http://www.acecustom45s.com/gunsmith.htm.

[Rikky Lee]

The http://bazookabrothers.com/products2.htm site has some good caliber choices.

SwampF0X - what do you say? Fast twist 45ACP or a 50AE?

From that list, I'm still a firm supporter of the 338BR - 250/300 grains at 1050fps....

[Rikky Lee]

A quick Google a minute later ===> http://www.shootinguk.co.uk/guns/311677/338_BR_calibre_review.html

[SwampF0X]

My choices in caliber has now expanded. I keep coming back to "larger bullets make more noise" The videos of the 45acp and integral 44 mag, that I have watched, seem decently quiet. What few videos of the 458 SOCOM I have seen..............well, they all seem quite loud. This makes me want to keep the bullet size < or = to 45 caliber.

What subsonic expandable bullets are available for the 338BR? Can I use my 223 AR mags or do I need special mags? Is the 338 BR capable of dropping the deer relatively quick?

I don't really understand the gas system in the AR platform. Where can I get the gas cutoff and side charging handle? A left hand charging handle would be nice. OR would I be better off buying a complete upper from bazookabrothers.com? Or perhaps they sell individual parts or kits to be used on my existing upper???

The 45 Roland or the 45 super or the 45 win mag all sounds like good candidates for my use. But how accurate would it be? Would case pressures be the same from each one, given both are loaded to shoot the same bullet at the same velocity? Or would the smaller 45 super case have more pressure? I assume the less case pressure, the less noise, correct??????? If so then the 45 win mag should still be my #1 pick if I use the AR platform. (maybe the roland to, I have not researched it yet)

This rifle will hopefully also double as a night time coyote killer. I'm not worried about maximum damage for the yotes but I do have a question concerning optics. I have a Gen 2.5 night vision scope. It works ok but it's not meant to be a quick release mount. Therefore taking it on and off for yotes to deer and back again would not maintain zero. Besides, I really hate the recticle in this thing to.

My question is.............Would it work, if I mounted a scout style pistol scope up front on an AR and then place the night vision scope behind it on the receiver in the normal fashion????? I'm thinking that I could then take the night vision scope on and off on and not have to worry about loosing zero because I would always be using the cross hairs in the pistol scope. Would it work like that? I don't have a pistil scope to try it on. Also, Can a green laser be used with night vision?

swampf0x

[SwampF0X]

From Wikapedia.

"Maximum Average Pressure is: 45 ACP (21,000 PSI), .45 ACP +P (23,000 PSI), .45 Super (28,000 PSI), .460 Rowland (40,000 PSI)."............... but this is all full loads. How would they rate using the same weight and velocity bullet?????? Which one would be the quietest, low pressure or high pressure?????


swampf0x

[Alleycat]

It's PSI at the end of the barrel that you have to worry about. Find some one with a Quickload program it will tell you what you need to know. Barrel length will greatly affect your numbers.

Outlaw state bullets and Lehigh bullets are both working on subsonic 338 bullets. No idea when they will be ready.


Blowback gas system is the loudest of all suppressed setups. It is used on most pistol cases. It is just like a semi auto 22 lr. The action is held by spring pressure. When the gun is fired the case expands and holds on to the side of the camber walls until chamber pressure drops. The pressures will typically be higher at the ejection port which will give you a nice pop.

On an AR you have a hole in the barrel that gas is shunted into. It travels through the gas block into the gas tube and finally into the carrier. As the carrier moves to the rear of the gun the bolt is rotated and disengages from the barrel extension. Pressures will be less = less ejection port pop.


Gas cut offs stop this from happening and turns the gun into a K31 Swiss:grin:
There is a member on this site that sell them. Bazooka brothers my be able to set you up.

The 460 Rowland was an attempt to put 44mag power into a 1911 handgun. Like the super it is a really stout case. They're both 45 cal. I would go with whatever had the most available brass. As long as they get your target bullet to 1050 It does not really matter which one you get. Looks like the super and the 45 mag are ready to ship.

http://www.starlinebrass.com/?gclid=CP-S3LqA754CFQ9fswodqX9MJA

As far as accuracy goes, It all depends on the gun. Get a free float tube and a good trigger.

NV. Some get a laser dot scope with a NV setting and mount it in front of their gun. There is not as much shift as you would think going back and forth. What will it take to verify you zero? I just shoot the gun.


A green laser will light your NV up and render it useless. (Red too) You need an IR laser or a good IR light source. It will look like a spotlight to you.

[dvanncvann]

dvanncvann,

The 45 Super can also be fired from pistols. A detailed writeup is provided here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.45_Super.

One pistol conversion kit is the "45Super"® Gunsmith Fit Conversion Kits by: http://www.acecustom45s.com/gunsmith.htm.

Correct. It just has to be one specially adapted for the load. The reason I stated for rifle use was so that someone reading my post would not mistakenly think that the loads could be used in a regular 45 pistol. Dont want any accidents. :)

[pmc]

Well the 300 whisper worked for this one. :smile:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v356/pmcal/Hunting/DSCN3056.jpg

Pmc

[Rikky Lee]

pmc - good shot - what bullet?

SwampF0x - see http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7JVd0SuMnSw for a 338 Whisper in action.

[SwampF0X]

Not to bad. It seemed a bit louder that the 44mag or 45acp suppressed videos I've seen.

Pmc,

Good going brother. Fine looking buck, ya' got there. Neck shot????

swampf0x

[pmc]

Yep, neck shot. 240 SMK

Pmc

[Rikky Lee]

pmc - have to ask - did the 240 tumble or go straight through? And what velocity?

[pmc]

At 11 yards the 240 passed straight through taking a section of spine with it.

Pmc

[SwampF0X]

11 yards ....................was it a pet. LOL

swampy

[SwampF0X]

Check out this video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6jz3DKwE7B0

Would it be safe to say that the 45 win mag would be close to this quiet, if I kept a 1050fps velocity and used a 300 grain bullet???????

What would be quieter, an integral 16" barrel or a SBR with a screw on can?

I really like the sound level on the video.

thanks,
swampf0x

[redtazdog]

I have never heard a factory 45 thread on can that is as quiet as
a integral yet, and I have been to many silencer shoots.
The integral can on my 45 is 13" long, if you want quiet with
a thread on can you will need a big custom built can and a realy short
barrel to keep you OAL 16" or less.
The best thread on factory 45 can will cost more than a integral and still wont be as quiet.
No need for a SBR if you go integral so that will save $200 that can be
used for the build.
I have many cans for many calibers so my vote is for the integral
if you want a short package and quiet.

[SwampF0X]

Does the intregal style hurt accuracy?

swampf0x

[redtazdog]

Does the intregal style hurt accuracy?

swampf0x
Nope!
My AR 45 hits golf balls at 100 yrds and so does the TC 44 mag :grin:

[SwampF0X]

Who did the intregal 45 barrel for you and what twist is it? Also is it a blow back bolt or like the original AR? If it's even an AR???

swampf0x

[redtazdog]

Who did the intregal 45 barrel for you and what twist is it? Also is it a blow back bolt or like the original AR? If it's even an AR???

swampf0x
.
SRT did the integral its like the one in the video you posted.
1:16 twist
Blowback like in the video
.
http://i197.photobucket.com/albums/aa166/redtazdog/AR45SRTIntegeral7websized.jpg

[SwampF0X]

Great!!! It's looking like the integral 45 win mag AR will be my best bet.

I "should" be able to launch a .45 cal 300 grain bullet at about 1050fps easily. And if I go with the Bazookabrothers upper, and an SRT integral suppressor.............I should be able to launch those 300 grainers rather quietly to. ;) It would be about the same, both noise wise and killing wise as an integral 44 mag. It should have a little bit more velocity and a flatter trajectory than a .45acp. Not as much devastation as a 530 grain bullet in a 458 SOCOM, But...................I think it will do the job nicely.

So, what do you guys think? Have I setteled on something everyone agrees would be a good quiet deer gun?????????????

I just wish it wasn't so long. I honestly cant hold my Rugger 77 243 long ways across my lap when in the hunting blinds. That's how small they are. A bull pup would be perfect for the blinds..................M1 carbines have been converted to 45 win mag............. Hmmmmm

swampf0x

[redtazdog]

Great!!! It's looking like the integral 45 win mag AR will be my best bet.

I "should" be able to launch a .45 cal 300 grain It would be about the same, both noise wise and killing wise as an integral 44 mag. It should have a little bit more velocity and a flatter trajectory than a .45acp.
.
The integral 45 may be quiet in a semiauto but it will never be as quiet as
a 44mag integral bolt action or single shot.

[pmc]

.
The integral 45 may be quiet in a semiauto but it will never be as quiet as
a 44mag integral bolt action or single shot.


This.

A single shot or bolt action is the quietest way to go.

Pmc

[SwampF0X]

.
The integral 45 may be quiet in a semiauto but it will never be as quiet as
a 44mag integral bolt action or single shot.


Even if I get a gas shut off valve and a side handle and use the Bazookabrothers upper?????????

swampf0x

[Rikky Lee]

If you are after del Lisle carbine performance then you need a de Lisle type platform. Simple things like padding to collect the brass in the magazine, a different firing spring material - little cheats to shave off a few decibels.

But since you plan to be firing from a hide in a wooded area with ambient noise (birds, wind, farm noise in the distance)? then an AR-15 platform should be fine enough. It will always be noisy for the shooter because your ear is against the mechanical system but the casual observer 10, 100 500 yards away will not be aware of gunfire. The sound of the round hitting the dear is the loudest noise.

[SwampF0X]

OK, I'll leave this alone for a while and keep tabs on it. I do believe I've found the best mix for an AR. But, I still want a bullpup..................time will tell.

swampf0x

[SwampF0X]

Here is the response I got from Bazooka Brothers:

"It may be dificult to get the 45winmag to push the 300s that slow & still run the action. I would sugest the 45acp & the 230g. Could look into the 300s for it as well. The 50GI will do what he wants with a 300 & costal makes a supressor for the 50cal.
Hope this helps, Ron"


I do not understand this????????????????? The 45winmag has moore case capacity than the 45acp. Why would the 45acp have enough power and the 45winmag not enough?????

swampf0x

[Alleycat]

They're telling you it may short stroke. You can solve the problem by clipping a coil or two off the recoil spring. If all you do is run subs you're good. If you plan on running supersonic as well you may need a 3 position gas block. I don't know how their gas system is set up. Most pistol uppers don't even have one. Maybe something else to ask.

[Alleycat]

I looked at load data for the 45 Win Mag in the Sierra manual. Max loads show 1050 with a 300gr bullet and a 6.5" barrel. If you do an integral the barrel length will not be much more than that. See what SRT needs. The back pressure from the suppressor will help with function of the gun. If you have Bazooka Brothers send the upper directly to SRT you won't have to worry about the SBR thing as long as the upper ends up 16" or more.

[SwampF0X]

I found this on handloads.com http://www.handloads.com/loaddata/default.asp?Caliber=45%20Win%20Mag&Weight=300&type=Handgun&Order=Powder&Source=

I shouldn't have any problems that can't be easily fixed.

I thought integral meant that the barrel has holes drilled into it with some type of filler material inside of a larger tube for suppression....................So, it's just a short barrel with a suppressor welded onto it???

swampf0x

[SwampF0X]

Does the SRT integral come apart for cleaning? Is there a better/quieter suppressor than the SRT integral?

swampy

[SwampF0X]

Here is my email to SRT:

> Hello, I am planning a build up of an AR-15. I intend to use a Bazookabrothers.com upper in 45 win mag. I then intend to have it integrally suppressed. How long will the actual barrel be before welding on the suppressor tube? I want the OAL of the barrel/suppressor to be around 16.5". I intend to shoot 300 grain XTP's at 1050fps. Does this sound feasible to you?


And this is SRT's response:

"I have never heard of a .45 Win Mag, but this sounds like a gas operated gun and you can't integrally suppressed a gas operated gun, only blowback type.

Thanks,
Doug
www.srtarms.com"


Now what??????

An integral 45 acp blowback action with the barrel re-chambered in 45 win mag. I'm gonna need the extra case capacity of the 45 win mag to get 1050fps with a 300grainer, won't I????

swampf0x

[Titleiiredneck]

you can supress a gas operated gun, it just has to be past the gas block, also i think the 45 win mag is blowback like the oly 45acp upper. if you just email back and confirm this and you should be ok

[Titleiiredneck]

on another idea, have you thought about a 16" ar10 with a gas shut off and side charger? would basically be a straight pull 308 win with a hi cap mag. You could also use subsonic with no problems. Or another idea, get tp555 on here to build a 3 way block so subsonic 308 will cycle. This would give you the best of 3 worlds in reality. A suppressor you could use on 223 to 300 mag and a semi ar10 that cycles with 308.. hope this makes you even more confused than before :wink:

titleiiredneck

[SwampF0X]

AR10 is out of the question. I already have a semi auto 308. It's my primary deer rifle at this time. I don't need another 308. I want to either build upon the AR15 platform or do a full custom bullpup in 44mag.

thanks,
swampf0x

[Titleiiredneck]

I understand that, i really think you should look more into a 300 whisper, a deer willnot know the diffrence between 1050 fps or 1300 fps. The deer wil try to tell the direction where the shot came from and run away on the oppisite direction, he will not be able to until the 3rd shot atleast. Also a 300 whisper with 200 gr sierra game kings works well on deer around here. I take and chuck it in a drill press and ream a 3/16 hole in the exposed lead 1/4" deep and it expands drastically 99% of the time. I have gotten to where i just use 220 smk's and wait for a neck/head shot nowadays.

[SwampF0X]

The 300 Whisper is the reason I came to this site. But after looking around and asking questions, I decided that I should use a heavier bullet. No matter the caliber, I want to shoot them at 1050fps to keep them subsonic. Next will be a suppressor.

swampf0x

[Rikky Lee]

Sorry to continue this theme swampf0x and I understand your reasoning behind the 45 but I would really not discount either the 300 Whisper or 338 BR for the task. Without a silencer these things are 9mm type loud at 1050fps.

Are you sure I cannot convince you to think about a 338BR on a Rem 700 in a folding AICS stock with a short barrel? :grin:

[SwampF0X]

I'm not totally against either one Rikky Lee. But I think I should clean out my safe a bit before I procede much farther.
I got a Ruger 77 243 my dad gave me
A Ruger 77 MKII SS 270 that I've never used but always wanted to.
A Win 70 300 win mag that I'll probably never need (Bought it for Elk but we never got any elk)
A BAR in 308
and of course my AR15
I sorta hate to buy yet another deer rifle. But I wouldn't mind converting the 300 win mag or maybe even the 270............any recomendations?

swampf0x

[Rikky Lee]

I'm looking straight at that 270 as a candidate for a 338BR (I have no great love for the 270!). Easy enough to spin the factory barrel off and put a good 338 barrel and can on.

Or sell the 270 and get a Rem 700 (more aftermarket accessories) in 223 (for 300 Whisper) or 308 (for 338BR) and work from there...

[Titleiiredneck]

I'm not totally against either one Rikky Lee. But I think I should clean out my safe a bit before I procede much farther.
I got a Ruger 77 243 my dad gave me
A Ruger 77 MKII SS 270 that I've never used but always wanted to.
A Win 70 300 win mag that I'll probably never need (Bought it for Elk but we never got any elk)
A BAR in 308
and of course my AR15
I sorta hate to buy yet another deer rifle. But I wouldn't mind converting the 300 win mag or maybe even the 270............any recomendations?

swampf0x
If you really want to go heavier what about a 338 spectre with a 300 gr .338 pill? 1050 fps and sounds like a paintball gun with a 9mm can. just another opton.. of if you want to go cheaper a 7.62x39 with subsonics could be possible. I really wouldnt hang my hat on a 45 upper just yet . Seems like a expensive project without bieng sure it will fill your requirement.

One more thing have you found out for sure that you can legally hunt in your state/county with a sbr/supressed weapon?

338 spectre info
http://www.teppojutsu.com/338.htm

[SwampF0X]

Could you recommend a very quiet integral for the 338? Max barrel length 17".

Would I have any problems with not having enough powder to fill the case? Requiring filler?

How heavy are the bullets and will some of them expand?

thanks,
swampf0x

[Rikky Lee]

See the 338BR thread ++> http://www.quarterbore.net/forums/showthread.php?t=2764

No need for a filler - Lehigh and Barnes are bullets of choice but a 300 grain SMK does the job well. Don't under-estimate these heavy match projectiles at subsonic velocities.

[SwampF0X]

What cartridge case is used for the 338br? 308? Will my 270 bolt fit?

swampf0x

[Rikky Lee]

6mm BR case necked up to 338. Uses a 308 boltface (same family as 30-06, 270 etc).

[SwampF0X]

Would such a short case feed properly in the 270 long action?

swampf0x

[Rikky Lee]

True - good point. The 243 would be a better choice of the two. Would you consider selling both and getting the parts together for a more custom build? Spook's 338BR is pure gun porn and with folding stock I think you would be very happy.

[SwampF0X]

The 243 has sentimental value. I hate to mess with it. How about the 338 spectre for my AR?

swampf0x

[Rikky Lee]

Speak to Marty at Teppo-Jutsu and see what the lead times are - but if you are seeking the most quiet option then a SBR bolt action will do everything you require for deer hunting.

[SwampF0X]

This brings up another problem. IF I'm gonna SBR a rifle I'd rather do it to my AR. Then I can use whatever upper I desire. Silence is important, but I do expect to hear something. I think I can live with a little bit of action noise.

OHHHH, I forgot to answer a question above. YES it is legal to hunt with a SBR and suppressor in my state.

I handled an M1 carbine today. I really wanted to buy it but at $700 I declined.

swampf0x

[ol' 30-30]

what did you ever decide on?

[SwampF0X]

I'm still undecided. I will most likely go with either a 300 whisper or a 458 socom built on a SBR AR15. I have selected these 2 calibers because they will feed from standard AR mags and I have a bunch of them. I looked into the 338 spectra but I don't think I can use my mags with that caliber.

swampf0x

[Rikky Lee]

Check out http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3jMeacFXNZA for an integral 44 mag in action. Seems to have a bit of recoil!