Birthing problems

[mstarling]

Received the 16+" SS bbl with adjustable gas block today. Also received a cartridge gauge made at the same time.

Using a Redding Deluxe die set. The initial pass at the brass resulted in its being too long to the shoulder. I progressively worked it down until the top of the shell holder is bumping the bottom of the die. The brass is 1.366" long.

Does not seat fully in the cartridge gauge and the bolt will not close when attempting to chamber the case in the rifle.

Any ideas?

[pug]

If it was mine I would fl size (to shellplate) a piece of 223 brass without the stem in the die (keeps from pulling the shoulder out in some cases) and trim to 1.350" which would fit any chamber I have measured so far. If that didn't chamber then I would begin to start looking for problems.

[mstarling]

OK ... done. .223 brass FL sized with a Dillon carbide FL die on a Corbin swaging press with shell holder meeting the bottom of the die. Have shot a HUGE number of .223 rounds loaded on the Dillon 1050 using this sizer die. Never a failure to chamber.

Decapped in this step. Primer pockets swaged on a Dillon 1050.

Brass FL sized with the Redding FL die with the shell holder meeting the bottom of the die. No internal diameter plug used.

Brass trimmed to 1.350" +- 0.0005.

Still does not fully seat in the cartridge gauge (just part of the rim above the flat).

Does not allow the chamber to close on case in the rifle.

The BCG in use has been headspace gauged in an M4 with military gauges. Closes on GO only. The M4 is know to work with another BCG which also gauges to GO only.

Thought I had another .223 FL sizer but cannot find it immediately.

Anyone us LC brass with a tp555 bbl?


The only things that makes sense to me is that either the Redding FL dies in bored too deep, or the shell holder is too thick so that the case does not go far enough into the die upon sizing. Other thoughts?

[pug]

I use LC brass all the time with Redding dies but not in one of tp555's 300/221 barrels. I have had him do other chamberings for me with never a problem.

Lots of people have problems with brass in ARs and resort to a small base die or some mill down a shellholder a few thousandths (my fix) but I have never had a problem with the 300/221 Redding dies. Since it still doesn't gauge right it sounds like it needs a little more sizing.

[mstarling]

Have a milling machine with a 3 axis DR so milling down the shell holder is accomplishable if I can figure out how to hold it ;-) Is certainly the cheapest part of all to modify! Are they hardened?

[pug]

My small vise has a v notch so just dropped it in till it bottomed out and locked it down. I really don't remember it giving me any trouble but unsure of the brand although it looks just like my other Redding #10.

I'm curious does your brass measure .374 -.375" at the base? Subjective to measuring tools I know but just curious.

[mstarling]

Actually did it in a lathe with a 6 jaw true-set chuck. Took 0.020" off the shell holder. Is just beginning to work. The shell holder claw was only 0.090" to begin with ... so I may be getting close to the most I can go.

Cases are chambering with the help of the forward assist now. Need to be looser than that!

How hard are sizing dies? Need to grind rather than cut them with a carbide cutter?

[pug]

The only dies I have cut have been steel dies and they cut ok with carbide. My shellholder is at .050".

I know you have a new build and want to try it out but perhaps you may want to stop for a minute and ask yourself again "why isn't this working?". Setting the shoulder back a few thousandths more just so the base gets sized enough to chamber is one thing but if you are pushing it back .020" more to get it to chamber then something else seems wrong.

The reason I have a cut back shellholder is because of fooling with other wildcats not the 300/221. In fact I have the 300/221 reamer from PTG which cuts a fairly tight chamber and I have no problem with the Redding dies and standard #10 shellholder. If I FL size brass for that chamber the brass rattles in there and falls out easily if you turn it upside down and that is not with the die turned down to the shellholder. Take a breather before turning your die down. Just my opinion. :smile:

[mstarling]

Pug,

I don't have the reamer ... tp555 did the work on the chamber and the gauge. I suspect his work is bang on. The other work on the barrel indicates he definitely knows what he is doing and has good tooling. Can't blame him at all!

The Redding deluxe die set I have is actually marked 300/221 Remington. Appears to be new old stock (NOS) as the die bodies are marked 91. I don't know if they mark the year of manufacture the way RCBS does ... and I can't find the year the Whisper was introduced.

I did check the BCG I'm using with the 300/221 barrel in an M4 with military gauges. It only closes on the GO gauge ... just as the M4s BCG does.

I suspect there is a mismatch between my die set and the chambering reamer. Other than that, I do not know how to proceed.

[pug]

Without you having the 221 fireball headspace gauges I am cautious to tell you any work arounds. I don't think you would have any trouble if you took another .020" off the shell plate giving it a .050" claw but really can't say you should do it.

[Alleycat]

I know this sounds crazy, but are you using the same brand shell holder? Some Lee shell holders will not interchange with other brands. I have had issues with brass out of spec. I finally realized that I had mismatch after much head scratching.

[mstarling]

Alleycat,

It is a mis-matched shell holder. Is a #10 RCBS. I have no idea what the "deck height" should be for a #10 Redding. This is the reason I didn't feel too bad putting the shell holder on a lathe. If 0.050" of hook on the shell holder is sufficient, I don't think there will be any difficulty with chambering brass made with that and the Redding die.

Can someone measure the thickness of the hook or claw on a stock Redding shell holder for me?

Thanks Guys!

Mike

[pug]

On a #10 stock shellholder I believe to be a redding the claw is ~.065". I am pretty sure it is because the total height of the deck is .125". My known redding +0.010" competition shellholder is 0.135" total height. This is perhaps the total measurement you want to go by since the case pushes downward when sized and the die taps the top of the holder. Bottom of deck to top of shell holder is 0.125".

[mstarling]

Oh boy!

I cut the RCBS shell holder until the resulting brass fit the gauge and chambered in the rifle. Height from the deck of the shell holder to the top of the shell holder is 0.104"

Makes me nervous. I hate it when I don't understand something!

(Shell holders are cheap ... so cutting one up doesn't bother me nearly as much as where the additional 0.020" went!)

I checked with the fella that sold me the dies. They are not NOS but were used to reload for two rifles using 300 Whisper headstamped brass but were obviously well taken care of). He says they worked fine feeding a bolt and a semiauto rifle. Makes me wonder if the chamber is short.

Anyone have a few new 300 Whisper headstamped cases they can sell me to check this against?

[tp555]

Your head spacing is dead on allowing for the .001" wearing in from the bolt.If you had a plain 221 fb case drop it in and see if it works.It will.So brass thickness and the curve at shoulder and neck come into play.Once fired the shoulder is a small sharp angle.I got about 5 firings out of 223 brass then it separated.I anneal my mil brass since then or use 221 FB.Shell plates are hardened as you probably know by now.

[pug]

Most likely it is not a short chamber but then you would know this if the barrel/bolt combo had been headspaced. I have heard it said on here before that bolts are kept within .001" spec of each other but that is just not so. Also it is as tp555 said that new formed brass from 223 can have a different shoulder than 221 fb and need further sizing. Mine does but new brass will still chamber if I fl size to the shellholder but then again that is my 300/221 reamer and gauge, redding 300/221 v5 dies and shellholder. If you don't get it worked out I can tell you who has headspace gauges in stock ($25) or I can send you new formed brass that chambers in mine.

You could call Redding and ask if your die markings are for a special run or something. Really nice people (607) 753-3331

[Fastshooter03]

Is the brass hard to extract after not closing the bolt?
If not I don't think the die would be at fault for not sizing the body down far enough.
If you have a lathe you can make your own headspace guage.
Trim it down until it fits and compare headspace measure to what is coming off the sizing die.
Mistakes can happen to anybody.


Nick

[mstarling]

Brass was hard to extract after not chambering completely.

I think the explanation offered by tp555 is probably a most likely contributor. He opined that the process of forming the new shoulder on .223 brass was leaving a curve that does not allow the brass to go in as deeply as it might.

As I said, I have been able to make a small number of pieces that do fit into the chamber gauge and do chamber in the rifle.

Will load and fireform some of those tomorrow. Will be very interesting to see how the shoulders looks after firing and how they then work in the sizing die.

Have to admit I would be quite disappointed if I am not able to make cases from .223 LC brass. It would very definitely change the economics of the Whisper. At nearly $2 a round for loaded ammo, I'd rather handload a big bore!

If anyone can sell me a couple of 300 Whisper headstamped cases I'd sure appreciate it!

(May also call my buds at Douglas and see if they have gauges for .221 Fireball. Would confirm the chamber gauge and chamber.)