Choosing the right Optics

[agentloveless]

Ok guys, I have a 300 Whisper AR-15 with a flat top upper with an adjustable gas block. I am trying to decide on the best type of optic. I know I will be using it subsonic with my HVT. I would also like to try some supersonic loads. From what I have read, the heavy subsonic loads perform similar to 22lr and therefore a 22lr scope would be good. Some suggested a pride-fowler scope. Does anyone have any insight on the best type of optics from subsonics up to 300 yds? Is there any type of optic out there that works well with all types of loads?

Thanks guys.

[nwcid]

The problem I have seen with most of the .22 scopes is they only go out to 150-200 yards for hold overs or marked adjustments.

I have been thinking about trying a Sweet .22 that has the BDC knob on it. It is only marked to 175 yards but I use it to 250 on my .22 often. So by knowing where you need to set it you are good to go. I have just not seen a good deal on one lately.

Once I get mine totally set up I think I am going to buy a scope and have a custom reticle built in it based on where my rounds actually hit.

[agentloveless]

That makes sense. I did see something about custom reticles when i was doing the research. I believe the said something about a company named Premier Reticles. I have no idea what that would cost but I am sure it is not cheap.

As far as calculating the necessary BDC is this just done with knowing the projectile type and the muzzle velocity?

[nwcid]

That makes sense. I did see something about custom reticles when i was doing the research. I believe the said something about a company named Premier Reticles. I have no idea what that would cost but I am sure it is not cheap.

As far as calculating the necessary BDC is this just done with knowing the projectile type and the muzzle velocity?



As far as the cost of a custom reticle I had looked at one and it was about $100 (plus your scope). It has been a while back that I checked and IIRC that was the place I looked at.

Well as for the BDC on the Sweet .22 has marked from 50 yards to 175 yards. YOU will have to take your gun to the range and see how close that is for you. If it is not right you will have to mark or keep track where you need to adjust the scope for that range.

[agentloveless]

I just saw another thread that recommended the Mueller Tac II 3-10x 44mm. Does anyone know how to determine the size of rings as fair as height? I have found medium, high and extra high and I am not sure which would be appropriate. Unfortunetly, I can't find the dimentions of the Mueller Tac II as only the overall length is populated on midway.

Wow, that is very resonable for a reticle. Is that offered from most scope companies?

[LouBoyd]

[QUOTE=agentloveless;15746] From what I have read, the heavy subsonic loads perform similar to 22lr and therefore a 22lr scope would be good. Thanks guys.[QUOTE]Ballistics

I would question your statement that heavy subsonic loads perform similar to a 22LR. Maybe for the first 100 yards, but any 22LR bullet has a much lower ballistic coefficient than any heavy 30 caliber boattail. Here is a plot of what is essentially holdover of the bore relative to the line of sight of a scope mounted 2" above the bore for a typical AR-15 shooting a 220 SMK at 1000 fps muzzle velocity.
http://i174.photobucket.com/albums/w108/ubvri/Ballistics/300-221_elev.jpg
Whatever scope you pick needs to be able to either be adjustable over the range of elevation angle you'll be shooting or have a reticle which covers that range. If you're only shooting to maybe 200 yards then most scopes will have sufficient vertical adjustment. A standard Mil-Dot reticle has 34.38 MOA over it's 10 mil reticle. For hunting quick moving targets a low power scope with a large field of view (short eye relief) is desirable. A 300-221 has little recoil. I would not want a commercial BCD reticle or 22LR reticle on a 300 Whisper. It would always be wrong. A custom reticle would be good but they're expensive and lock you in to one bullet, one air density, and one muzzle velocity. For for best accuracy a scope with target knobs and plenty of elevation adjustment is my choice. It can be used with any bullet/velocity/atmosphere with range cards or a pocket calculator. It's downside to is that its' slower than using a custom reticle. For subsonic shooting range needs to known accurately beyond about 200 yards. The best for that is a laser rangefinder

What scope is on my 300-221 AR-15s? . They have Bushnell model 3200 10x40 mil dots. At under $200 I consider them a "best buy". They have 90 MOA of vertical adjustment with large target knobs and 1/4 MOA positive clicks. One thing they don't have is parallax adjustment, but that is unlikely to introduce a significant error compared to other error sources. An AR-15 is not a benchrest rifle. The mil-dots can be used either for ranging or for short range windage and elevation "holdovers" for quick shots. Arguably 10x is too much magnification and too small of field of view for hunting or combat at short range (100 yards or less).

A Leupold Mk 4 16x40 adds parallax adjustment and 140 MOA of vertical adjustment but costs about eight times more. No doubt its a good choice for very long range subsonic shooting (500 yards plus).

[nwcid]

Here is the site for the scope you ask about, http://www.muelleroptics.com/products/MTAC31044.html


I was wrong about what reticle company I was talking about. Here it is and for what I want I am going to be about $150 (plus scope), http://www.scopedot.com/


As LB was saying you need a scope with enough adjustment if you want do it right. Mil dots will not get you there. I am shooting Hornady 220gr bullets at 1050fps. If I am zeroed at 100 yards the tables show 110" of drop at 300 yards. With a scope that has 5 Mils of hold over (like the one you show) that only gives you 54" of hold over, which is why I am going with custom dots.

With the scope you are looking at what you could do is sight in at 200 yards and the tables show you have 58" of drop at 300 so that would put you close by holding on the cross hair duplex. Keep in mind that you are going to be 18" high at 100 yards so at 100 yards you would hold right on the top duplex.

[sgms18]

I have the Lupold Mark AR 3X9 Mil -Dot, it comes with a BDC calibrated for a 55gr .223 but you can call their custom shop with your load data and they will make you a turret for about $60 :wink:

[Alleycat]

I have custom Leupold with dots for the supersonic and etched turret for subs. Premier Reticles did great work on Leupold's, but Leupold F**ked him over. We use some PR/Leupold's for 1000 yd shooting. Last I checked he was making his own stuff at about $2500 a unit. You could talk to Leupold and get one set up, but there will be trade offs. There dots are set up with the main crosshair at 200 yds with dots for 100, 300, 400, and 500. For subs you will need to ask for it to be regulated at the scopes lowest power. Or if they will regulate to shorter ranges. The turrets will be set up from 200 yds out to max adjustment of the scope in 50 yd increments. There just happens to be 15 MOA between 100 and 200 yds with subs so you can use the 200 yrd mark for 100 and 200 after one complete revolution. If you use the turrets for subs learn to use paint. It helps tremendously. If you go this route let me know I will explain the paint use. Right now you would just think I was nuts. And you you can hit a 3ft x 3ft steel plate a 500 yds with a subsonic 240. You just have to wait for it........wait for it......................wait for it.............DING!

[gary0529]

I have but one question regarding scopes, Whispers and long range shooting.
WHY?
Come on, guys. I have and regularly shoot my bolt action 300W and love it for what it is and does but to fool myself into thinking that I need to reach out past 200 yards is foolsplay.
Yes, it can be done but I can also open beer bottles with my teeth-does it sound like a good plan ?

Use the right tool for the job- I have, and probably so do the vast majority of you, something other than a suppressed sub-sonic big assed slug to shoot long distances.

I have a hard enough time getting what I want at 600 yards with my 6mm BR that has been tweaked, bedded, and otherwise massaged.
Why oh why try to use the Whisper.

Get a scope that best fits what you use the gun for.
I have a wide variety of scopes ranging from Muellers(pretty good value, by the way) up to NightForce NXS's and try to pair the scope with the rifle and its intended use.

OK, my ranting is over, the coffee has kicked in and as always, just my humble opinion.

Gary

[LouBoyd]

> I have but one question regarding scopes, Whispers and long range shooting. WHY?

Why do you need to shoot at short range either? Do you need to shoot at all? I've never needed to shoot anything in my life. I shoot subsonic and at long range because it's a hobby and a challenge that I enjoy. If I didn't enjoy it I wouldn't do it.

> Come on, guys. I have and regularly shoot my bolt action 300W and love it for what it is and does but to fool myself into thinking that I need to reach out past 200 yards is foolsplay. <

Shooting under 200 yards is mostly just boring to me. I do carry a pistol and practice with it but I don't consider it as entertainment. Just a necessity for a very unlikely need for self defense.

> Yes, it can be done but I can also open beer bottles with my teeth-does it sound like a good plan ?<

Why would I want to open beer bottles with my teeth? Why would I want to drink alcohol at all?

> Use the right tool for the job- I have, and probably so do the vast majority of you, something other than a suppressed sub-sonic big assed slug to shoot long distances.<

I have four rifles which will shoot supersonic to over 2000 yards. One is very "big assesd" All use very low drag "slugs". They're all very noisy. The subsonics aren't.
The subsonics are also very efficient, not that the cost of powder is major concern.
It's my small contribution to the "green" save the planet movement ;-)

> I have a hard enough time getting what I want at 600 yards with my 6mm BR that has been tweaked, bedded, and otherwise massaged. Why oh why try to use the Whisper.<

No one is forcing you. If you don't want a challenge then don't bother.

> Get a scope that best fits what you use the gun for. I have a wide variety of scopes ranging from Muellers(pretty good value, by the way) up to NightForce NXS's and try to pair the scope with the rifle and its intended use. <

I do agree with that. When I have a rifle with unusual properties, like being able to shoot over 500 yards subsonic I equip it with whatever optics are needed to allow it to function. That requires a scope with around 100 MOA of elevation adjustment. The price of a rifle does not need to be matched to the price of a scope, only to it's function.

> OK, my ranting is over, the coffee has kicked in and as always, just my humble opinion<

Isn't it nice that we live in a country where everyone can express their opinion!

[nwcid]

I have a 250yard range in my back yard. I want to be able to shoot that far. Since the 300W was designed to be a 300 yard gun why not. I shoot my .22 rifle accurately at 250 yards often even though many seem to think they are 50 yard guns. While the other poster seems to shoot his 300W at 500 yards I think that is awsome but I have no desire to do so. I want to run it at 300 yards because that is what I WANT to do.

Not sure what the problem is with your BR, I shoot my target .223 AR-15 to 600 yards often with good success.

Of course get the right scope for the right gun, that is what this thread is about.

[este]

You both completely missed his point. Which is perfectly valid.

At 300 yards, a subsonic whisper bullet will drop so much that you had better be damn sure of your distance you you'll miss by feet in drop alone. Not to mention the effect wind has on the bullet by that distance.

If I have a range finder and really really want to hit 400 yards on a perfectly clear day I know that is possible. I had better know the -exact- distance and be really lucky with the wind though. Even then it's more luck than skill imo. I would also suggest using whisper for no more than 200yards ideally and get a scope to match.

Is it possible to get a longer distance scope with more adjustment? Yes of course. Is shooting that far, at the point where it just becomes a toss up fun ? Not so much to me. If you know better than just get a 10-25x scope and post your results instead of arguing with someone saying something you don't want to hear.

[Alleycat]

We have a range set up at one place out to 800 yds. The second range goes out to 1000 yds. From 500 yds out we use steel plates. I shoot a 6.5 WSM with a Berger 140 with a .640 BC from 500 out to 1000 yds. It's a lot of fun. I also shoot my Whisper at the same two ranges. Usually between 100 yds and 300 yds. 250 yds is as far as I would shoot at deer with subsonic rounds. 300 yds is as far as I would shoot at deer with supersonic Whisper rounds, but that's just me. If you were looking at a 500 target plate and had a 300 Whisper you would send one down range too. Why do I do it? Because I can. The Whisper with supersonic 125 BT will hold 1 MOA at 500 yds. Steel doesn't feel so why the hell not. I have never shot the 240s for groups @ 500, but you can hit the 3' x 3' plate with regularity.(If there is little or no wind) If you're ever in middle TN let me know, we shoot on Sundays except when hunting. I'll show you some more crazy shit we do.

[d-mon]

What about these babies guys?

http://swfa.com/SWFA-SS-Scopes-C1719.aspx

All of you who live in the US of A can buy them.
But he would not ship to international countries (even if our boys are fighting alongside your boys in Middle east). But he has his reasons that I respect.

I use a leupold vari xll 3x9x40 with a mildot reticle and I also have the target turrets, but I have not enough elevation with the current set up to use them. So I am zeroed at 100m and use the mildot for shooting out to 200m.

ND