308 subsonic

[JF]

I'll jump right in here and share my success with .308 subsonics:

I begin with a starting load of Accurate 5744 powder. I then work backwards until I reach the subsonic speed I desire. I will chronograph each load for a particular gun and write it down in my log book. In my 308 Encore barrel (23 inch, 1:8 twist) I hit a good subsonic velocity at about 12gr of powder using a 220gr Sierra HPBT match bullet. I have been using magnum primers and a good crimp on the bullet but this is not always necessary or desired. My accuracy in this barrel with 220gr subsonics has easily been MOA at 100 yards. The velocity spread also has been low.

I find that each barrel will be a little different in resistance so one load recipe will not always work in a different barrel. My bolt gun (18 inch, 1:10 twist) was way off of a good subsonic speed with the same load that worked great in my Encore. I believe that this critical subsonic window is why there are not very many over the counter 308 subsonic loads. What may work great in one gun may be too slow in another etc....

I don't like to guess a subsonic load because that is where you may end up with a stuck bullet in your bore. I always work backwards from the published starting load a little at a time until I reach a good subsonic speed.

Don't use just any powder for loading subsonics in rifle size cases. There is dangers associated with using low volumes of slow powders. Accurate 5744 is one powder that I keep coming back to because it just works. It is not effected by low charges in a case. In fact, the person I talked to over at Accurate powder tells me that it was designed to not be position sensitive with low charges in relatively big cases. It also has a higher nitroglycerin content for easy ignition.

Another powder to try is IMR SR4759. They sell it in the metal IMR cans but you only get a 1/2 pound since it is so bulkey. It is in the same class as Accurate 5744 but is a more bulkey powder.

Fast pistol powders will work, but there is a danger of a double charge of powder causing more pressure than is safe. I stay away from them for this reason. With 5744 and 4759, you can visually inspect the charged cases before seating a bullet and easily see if there is a possible double charge. A double charge of these (when measuring for subsonic loads) will not be over the maximum load listed in the manuals.

If all you have is a 1:10 twist barrel, you will have problems with accuracy if you go heavier than a 180-200gr bullet. I would suggest that 180gr bullets be max for the slower 1:10 twist barrels. If you use a bullet that is too heavy for your twist, you may have a hard time hitting the target at all. They will flop around in the air like a poorly thrown football and you can actually hear them wobbling through the air down range.

[Cornholio]

JF,

I know you mentioned only using 180-200gr bullets in a 1 in 10" twist, but what about the Hornady RN 220gr flat base bullets? The OAL of the 220gr bullet is about the same as a 175gr Sierra Match King, and I've used those subsonically without keyholes nor baffle strikes. The fact that they have a flat base rather than a boat tail should help in their stability in a 1 in 10" twist. I haven't tried them yet, but just thinking out loud because I was looking and comparing the two bullets at the reloading shop last week.

I've always used bulky fast pistol powders like Unique and Red Dot. Red Dot works fine in the winter, but is VERY temp sensitive, and oftentimes goes supersonic on me in the summer. How much case volume does the two powders you mentioned take up (grain for grain) compared to flake powders like Unique and Red Dot? I was thinking of trying VVN310 or Titegroup next (supposedly case position insensitive).

What do you think?

Thanks!

[JF]

I haven't been able to get good subsonic accuracy with the Hornady 220 round nose in my Whisper or my 308. Both of them are 1:8 twist barrels. I wouldn't think that a 1:10 twist would make their accuracy any better. Yes they are shorter but the driving area or something does not seem to like the slow speed or lower pressures. This Saturday I decided to give up on them after repeated testing in my Whisper (I was only getting 3 to 4 inch 100 yard groups). Sierra makes a heavy round nose bullet also but I haven't tried it yet.

I don't know the exact volume percent that 5744 and 4759 gives me in a 308 size case. I would guess that it is about 1/3 to 2/5 of the case or so. It is substantially more than the fast pistol powders.

Some powders are more position sensitive in the case than others when lower volume charges are used. Tipping the barrel down or up before chronographing your loads will tell you this. The fast pistol powders, in my experience, seem to suffer from this more than 5744 and 4759 do.

[Cornholio]

JF,

Thanks for your thoughts.

What suppressor are you using? I'm using a Thundertrap on a 16" Savage barrel.

You seem to be interested in getting maximum precision and consistency. I like those attributes too, but I must admit I'm seeking ultimate sound suppression.

I would have to think that the larger charge weight of your 5744 load (~12 grains as opposed to ~8.5 grains of Unique or Red Dot) would make it slightly louder because the suppressor has more gas work. Did you find this to be the case? Also, since I'm only using a 16" barrel, I figured the fast pistol powders would be fully burned and easier to suppress than the slower 5744. What do you think? Am I barking up the wrong tree?

I'm trying to disagree with you. I'm trying to learn something and hopefully find a more effective load than the one I've been using. If your load is safer, more precise, and JUST AS QUIET as the ones I've been using, then I owe you a huge debt of gratitude for sharing your success with us.

[JF]

I use an HTG suppressor. It is little known and relatively new on the market but compares better than some of the more popular models for its noise reduction quality.

Funny you should mention maximum quiet and precision. Those are my two primary objectives too! Yes, the less powder volume you burn the quieter things can be. But there are some limitations. My 308 is a 23 inch, 1:8 twist, Virgin Valley Encore barrel. And yes the faster light charges do produce less muzzleblast and noise. But I have not seen a huge deal of difference in noise between 5477 and the faster pistol powders out of the 23 inch barrel. Your shorter barrel might make more of a difference.

In my 16 inch 300 Whisper Contender barrel, there is a very noticeable difference in noise when comparing H110 with Winchester 231 in subsonic loads. Even with no suppressor installed, I can still hear quiet a difference between the two. I have access to some expensive precision sound testing equipment and am trying to test this out this weekend if I can meet up with the guy that has it. If I do, I'll post the results here.

The last time I tested my 300 Whisper with sound testing equipment, I brought along my RWS pellet gun. The pellet gun registered in the 113 to 115 decible range. My suppressed Whisper (using H110 powder) was very close to that. With these new 231 loads I have been trying, I fully expect the noise to actually register below the sound signature of my spring piston pellet gun. Like I said, I'll post these and the sound results of the 308 sub loads as soon as I can get this tested.

[Cornholio]

I use an HTG suppressor. It is little known and relatively new on the market but compares better than some of the more popular models for its noise reduction quality.

The last time I tested my 300 Whisper with sound testing equipment, I brought along my RWS pellet gun. The pellet gun registered in the 113 to 115 decible range. My suppressed Whisper (using H110 powder) was very close to that. With these new 231 loads I have been trying, I fully expect the noise to actually register below the sound signature of my spring piston pellet gun. Like I said, I'll post these and the sound results of the 308 sub loads as soon as I can get this tested.

JF,

That sounds fascinating and I'll eagerly be awaiting any results you have! When you were testing before, were you using the Larson Davis 800B sound meter with a 1/4" mic, with the muzzle 1 meter to the right of the mic? I ask because 113-115dB actually sounds a little low for an adult air rifle.

BTW, would you tell me more about this HTG suppressor? I've been looking for an upgrade.

[Cornholio]

OK, I did some research and see that HTG stands for High Tech Gunworks in Boise. Is that Jim Ryan's company? There seems to be alot of good suppressor mfgs in that area! I'd still like to hear more about the suppressor!

Thanks

[JF]

HTG - Boise, Idaho-208-323-7674. His suppressors are killer from a design standpoint. The HTG suppressors get about 33+ decible reduction from his 22/223 and 30 caliber models. He has some 9mm and 40SW models that will let the pistol cycle. Pretty cool! I'd love to get one of them.

I have one of the HTG 22/223 sups and it is real quiet when I put it on my bolt 22 rifle and feed it subsonic 22s. It is a hoot to use it for rodent hunting or animal control applications. About all you hear is the bullet impact. I can also stick it on my 223 AR and shoot without all that noise discomfort at my shooting range.

Yes to the Larson & Davis equipment and testing methods but I don't know the model number. I seem to recall from my past readings on some pellet gun website that the RWS spring piston pellets rifles are a little quieter than some of the others out there. I've never compared different pellet guns side by side though. I was simply trying to see if my suppressed 300 Whisper was near the sound reading of a pellet rifle. It was.

[Cornholio]

JF,

A few more questions for you (where were you 4 yrs ago when I started messing with suppressors?)

1) What's your suppressor guy's name?

2) Is there any sound difference between your subsonic 308s and your 300 Whisper (both suppressed)?

3) Would you mind sharing some of the dB numbers of different gun/suppressors you tested, including the .22s and .223s?

4) What's different about the design of HTG suppressors? Baffle design? Materials?

I'm thinking of another .30 cal can (was considering SWR, SRT, and Jet), and now the HTG has caught my attention.

[JF]

I said I would post some sound testing results so here it is. But let me say from the start that I do not claim to be a sound testing expert. Take this info for what it is and please don't bash my results. If you can use this info - great.

I started by testing 220 subsonic loads in my 300Whisper. If I switch from H110 powder to the much faster Winchester 231 powder, I was able to drop the sound by about 3 decibels. When you consider that to double a sound on the decibel scale you need to increase it by 3 dB, I think this is significant.

I was asked if my subsonic 308 loads were the same noise level as my whisper loads. No, the 308 was louder by about 3 to 4 decibels. But it is comparing apples to oranges I believe. If I had the same gun and the same type of barrel, powder etc, the results might be differrent.

unsuppressed 308 subsonic (5744 load) = about 154dB
unsuppressed 308 supersonic (4064 load) = about 166dB
unsuppressed 300 Whisper subsonic (H110 load) =about 151dB
unsuppressed 300Whisper subsonic (W231 load)= about 148dB
unsuppressed 300Whisper supersonic (H110 load) = about 157dB

Please note: I did not shoot tons of each load in an effort to get the most accurate averages possible. I only shot a few of each to get a general idea of the readings.

[Cornholio]

That's interesting data. Thanks!

So when you were testing, you were using the 23" bbl for the .308 and the 16" bbl for the Whisper?

If so, that tells me that the Whisper is INHERENTLY a quieter round than subsonic .308, even though they are pushing the same bullet at the same velocity. This is fascinating. I need to stop wasting my time with making subsonic .308s, and get myself a Whisper bbl for my Savage!!!

[Thumper_Three0Eight]

That is what I would recommend... I talked w/EBR and found thier powder is better. I do NOT recomend TTI armory.

I have a 20" savage w/an AWC thundertrap and found EBR to be the best.

I am, however, about to start shooing 7.62x39 jackhammer as soon as I can find a twist rate I want to shoot the heavy load.

Here are some details...
http://www.ebr-inc.net/LowbandAmmoDetail.asp?id=3

I want .300 whisper, but her of so many problems that I am affriad to try it.

[Artful]

HTG website (http://www.htgsilencers.com/)

[b1g_b0re]

I was told someone made .308 brass with much thicker walls around the web/base so the volume was low. I can't find it.

[sniperx]

Well, I am just going to have to bump this up to the top. I have started
looking into some subsonic 308 projects as well now. I was hoping to see
as much on the 308 as there is on the whisper here :cool: Just kidding.
I have found a little tidbit that may be helpful to fill the case. The product is
Pufflon http://www.pufflon.com/

Looks like the Unique at up to 8.5grn with 150grn bullets is one that I have
heard of but not tried, yet. Was told to start a little lower and work up to speed.


Also have heard that Mullins Ammunition has the info but would probably not
let any out. Has anyone heard this or know anyone over there??


Lets see if we can get this thing going again :bangin:

[d-mon]

I heard about pufflon.
My question is how do you make it work in a silencer with out filling your silencer with that "magic stuff"? :D

ND

[sniperx]

Roger on the puff-lon. That was my question to them. :cool:


Flash cotton seems to be a better choice, but it may effect the charge
a little. I talked to one gentleman who is using it and it works quite well.
On the other hand, one of the main "dudes" does not use any filler at all.

[d-mon]

In france, most experienced subsonic shooters,do not recommend to use any filler.

ND

[Artful]

link on another website 'bout 308 subsonic loads
http://www.silencertests.com/silencer-forum/viewtopic.php?t=169

Basically using Trailboss powder - very bulky working very well for them.

Debo's Results-

200gr Speer Spitzer SP, 11.7gr Trailboss, CCI250 (Large Rifle Magnum) primers, Federal GMM brass, 70 degrees-

Shot through 20" Douglas SS bbl, 1 in 10 twist, SRT Shadow suppressor.

MV for three shots with 11.7 gr was

1031
1029
1061

This was preleminary. Going to load up some and head to the range later this week hopefully.

Scott- yes they stayed subsonic. I worked up from 9gr (604fps), 10gr (824fps), 11gr (986fps), 11.5gr (1009fps), 11.7gr (1031,1029,1061fps).


Debo


also this...

Quote:
If anyone would sacrifice a commercial subsonic round, it would be interesting if they'd dismantle one (safely, of course), and see just what kind of volume the powder charge actually displaces. Also, if the flash hole appears to be larger than normal.

Reply
I already did:

EBR 180gr subsonic has some strange powder I have never seen in it. I don't remember the exact load density but there is lots of room for the powder to slosh back and forth inside. The flash-hole is not enlarged.

Lapua 200ge subsonic has what looks like a N310 but with smaller granules which would indicate it is even faster burning than N310. The flash-hole is not enlarged.

End Quote

[Debo]

Hey guys,
Lurking around on this forum and saw my name mentioned :nanabang:

I am still working on the subsonic .308 load. The 11.7gr ended up being very inconsistant with velocity. My latest is 200gr Speer Spitzer, 12.3gr Trailboss, CCI magnum primers, Federal brass with flashhole drilled out larger. It seems to be working pretty well giving me 1030 to 1070fps or so and 1.5MOA groups. I feel like I have to test it a little more but I am going to make a nice writeup on Silencertests and I will cross post here and Snipershide.


Debo

[Code Red]

I have a SR-25 sniper rifle with a 24" 1-10 twist barrel. I use a Lauer Weapons .30 cal suppreser with great results. I use the military M118 173gr ammo. I remove the factory powder and reload them with 45.5gr of Varget for long range shooting. I use Varget for it is almost impervious to temperature with extreme accuracy, 1/4 MOA at 100m. For missions that require silence I reload the M118 with 8gr of Titegroup. This shoots at 1062fps at 28 degrees F and neted 3/4 MOA at 100m. This set up is very quiet and very accurate out to 400m.

[Elkman1]

Artful, you seem to be knowledgable on this matter.
I'm looking for some direction from yourself or any other reader of this posting.

I have a DPMS 308 Long Range Rifle. The barrel is 1 in 10 twist. I have a Gemtech TPRS Sup. I am researching where to start in developing a sub-sonic round for my set-up.

I have read so many opinion in the last few days that my brain hurts. I have done alittle reloading myself but mostly pistol ammo and 22-250's. In my search, there seems to be a consensous that underloading (to much air) or using fillers (cotton fibers) is a bad idea. I did find an article where the auther suggested the use of dacron. (pillow stuffing) and claimed that it incenterated completely without clogging. I'm not sure why someone would like to take a chance and clog the baffles in a Sup...so for safety reasons, I have decided to start out using low volume 308 cases.

I don't know how the receipts will differ between pressures. For example one of my questions would be: Would the pressures be the same if I put 12 grains in an reduced volume case with less air vs. 12 grains in a standard underloaded case with more air. I'm looking for a safe starting point...Bullet weight?, Powder type?, Charge amount?, Standard/Magnum Primer. Any advise....?

And even a more important question, will it even be possible to get this AR-308 to even cycle rounds? If not, are there any safety concerns if I use this rifle as a single shot. Meaning, if there is not enough blow back to cycle the next round, are there any side affects that will cause damage to the gas tube, bolt assembly, etc. if I were to manually feed it one at a time?

[ADRIAN B]

Hi

New to this forum and a novice at reloading subsonic .308 so please forgive the basic questions. Looking to buy a .311 rcbs mould to cast my own and in the UK we are limited to which powders we can purchase. Currently we can purchase easily a french powder called Vectan SR9. Ok for supersonic etc.

Apparently there are 2 weights of bullet moulds you can buy in rcbs 308 you can cast 93gr and 155gr approx, as you can gather I am learning and have more info to gather. The powder charge to be used I believe is in the region of 4grains so I would assume be careful of secondry detonation and I am sure you will have to use a case packer like cotton wool?

I await any knowledge/ advise.

Regards

Adrian

[sniperx]

:grin: Have not been back here for a while, but here is where I am at
with the load.

9.2grn Unique, Sierra 180grn round nose, CCI large magnum primers.
Cases fully prepped: trim, full length size, primer pocket uniformed and
flash hole debur. They shoot good. No filler, though I did get some flash
cotton and Pufflon. I have a few loaded that I moly coated and have
"seasoned the barrel" Will be testing them and see what this does for the
spread/speed/etc. I did notice that shooting from an elevated position as
from blind, that the drop is noticeably less:eek: Good thing I shot a few from
a similar position prior to dialing for the hunt.


http://www.fototime.com/{1BE7871E-EA13-4B56-B7D4-59FD6D44159D}/picture.JPG


http://www.fototime.com/{3EA07833-C515-4CAD-B39D-9A5F053B10E3}/picture.JPG


The rounds punched through this hog at around 80 yds, no problem, but
did not hit the spine solid dead center. There were a few fragments near
the exit hole, so I am guessing that the bullet expaned fairly well. (pass through)

[Artful]

Artful, you seem to be knowledgable on this matter.
I'm looking for some direction from yourself or any other reader of this posting.

I have a DPMS 308 Long Range Rifle. The barrel is 1 in 10 twist. I have a Gemtech TPRS Sup. I am researching where to start in developing a sub-sonic round for my set-up.

I have read so many opinion in the last few days that my brain hurts. I have done alittle reloading myself but mostly pistol ammo and 22-250's. In my search, there seems to be a consensous that underloading (to much air) or using fillers (cotton fibers) is a bad idea. I did find an article where the auther suggested the use of dacron. (pillow stuffing) and claimed that it incenterated completely without clogging. I'm not sure why someone would like to take a chance and clog the baffles in a Sup...so for safety reasons, I have decided to start out using low volume 308 cases.

I don't know how the receipts will differ between pressures. For example one of my questions would be: Would the pressures be the same if I put 12 grains in an reduced volume case with less air vs. 12 grains in a standard underloaded case with more air. I'm looking for a safe starting point...Bullet weight?, Powder type?, Charge amount?, Standard/Magnum Primer. Any advise....?

And even a more important question, will it even be possible to get this AR-308 to even cycle rounds? If not, are there any safety concerns if I use this rifle as a single shot. Meaning, if there is not enough blow back to cycle the next round, are there any side affects that will cause damage to the gas tube, bolt assembly, etc. if I were to manually feed it one at a time?

Well, I'm no expert and like you am researching what I can, but from what I've read with 1:10 twist rate your going to be limited to shorter bullets (180's probably - start out loading higher then speed of sound and work your way backwards as each barrel has it's own frictional coeffecient. You might want to start off without the supressor to make sure the load is stable (not gyrating) giving nice round holes in the target at 10 feet and 100 yards.

I have seen the reports of .308 case with reduced volume (either home made - JD Jones route with expoxy or machined from brass) and the same powder charge in lower volume contain will equate to higher pressure...

RifleShooter Jan/Feb 06 issue and some of the other people Debo for example are experimenting with .308 are using bulkier powders in unreduced volume cases Hodgdon's Trail Boss seems to giving good results.

As to Auto Rifle function with subsonic - possible in AR10 I don't have any experience with that platform - I do know it it possible with similar gas system in AR15 but it depends upon many things...Gas port size - location on the barrel - gas pressure at the port - length of barrel beyond the port - pressure curve of load used - ad nasium...

If you use a slower burning powder which keep up the pressure curve and you have enough barrel length after the port (of course your suppressor should help with back pressure) it may be possible to have semi auto function - my first test if I were you would to be buy a commerical 180 or 200 subsonic load - take my can off and shoot to make sure it was stable if it was stable and functioning the action I would put the suppressor back on and see how it functioned. Then I would take a round apart and see what kind of powder (stick, ball etc) and how much it was loaded with so I could have some kind of idea to reverse engineer :wink:

As to single shot function see if someone makes an adjustable gas tube or block or if a gunsmith offers a modification to your existing gas block. If you fire sub power loads the only down side I could see would be partial unlock of bolt with maybe some gas leakage into the action from tube/barrel (IE more clean up:frown:)

As for fillers w/ suppressors I don't think I would want to use any with my cans - I have used fillers in fireforming cases and such but not with subsonic loads.

[Code Red]

Artful, you seem to be knowledgable on this matter.
I'm looking for some direction from yourself or any other reader of this posting.

I have a DPMS 308 Long Range Rifle. The barrel is 1 in 10 twist. I have a Gemtech TPRS Sup. I am researching where to start in developing a sub-sonic round for my set-up.

I have read so many opinion in the last few days that my brain hurts. I have done alittle reloading myself but mostly pistol ammo and 22-250's. In my search, there seems to be a consensous that underloading (to much air) or using fillers (cotton fibers) is a bad idea. I did find an article where the auther suggested the use of dacron. (pillow stuffing) and claimed that it incenterated completely without clogging. I'm not sure why someone would like to take a chance and clog the baffles in a Sup...so for safety reasons, I have decided to start out using low volume 308 cases.

I don't know how the receipts will differ between pressures. For example one of my questions would be: Would the pressures be the same if I put 12 grains in an reduced volume case with less air vs. 12 grains in a standard underloaded case with more air. I'm looking for a safe starting point...Bullet weight?, Powder type?, Charge amount?, Standard/Magnum Primer. Any advise....?

And even a more important question, will it even be possible to get this AR-308 to even cycle rounds? If not, are there any safety concerns if I use this rifle as a single shot. Meaning, if there is not enough blow back to cycle the next round, are there any side affects that will cause damage to the gas tube, bolt assembly, etc. if I were to manually feed it one at a time?

Hey Elkman,
I hop that some of this may be helpfull for you. Artful is correct that if you don't have a modified gas system the bolt will not fully cycle, it will partly open, needing a lot more cleaning. I get between 15-20 rounds before I notice the bullets wont chamber as nice. If you send your upper to www.medeshafirearms.com they can instal an external bolt handle on your bolt carrier. This makes chambering your rounds a lot easyer than the T-handle. I had this done to my SR-25 just for subsonic ammo. I think it cost around $110. As far as a place to start for a load, I called Hodgdon (913-362-9455) they said to use 8gr Clays with 168gr Sierra Match and Magnum primers, no filler and Winchester Brass. I didn't have any Clays at the time but I did have a lot of Titegroup so I tried that with 8gr and it worked very well. I got some Clays and tried it, I found that I could not get the same accuracy with the Clays versus the Titegroup but the Clays was a bit more quiet. I found that useing 8gr of Titegroup with 173gr Military Match projectiles will produce sub MOA at 100m. I shot 20rds through my chrony today with a low of 1028fps and a high of 1062fps and an average of 1052fps. Temp was 48 degrees, humidity 40%, elevation 802ft.
I also spoke with a rep from Lapua, (630-350-1116) for a good projectile for sub loads. They have a 200gr FMJBT product code (B416) that they make specific for sub loads. They said that in a 1x10 barrel if you load them with the base of the bullet forward that they will stabalize. I bought some of them but have not tried this yet. I will post as soon as I do, should be next week some time.

Once again I hope that this is helpfull.

[Code Red]

I finaly got some of the Lapua B416s loaded and went to the range today. Over all length with the base of the bullet loaded forward is 2.474"
Temp was 42 deg. humidity 60% elevation 802ft. I loaded 14 bullets to start so I could find out what works.
Starting point was 9.4gr tite group. 1st shot was 1200fps 2nd shot 1188fps. 9.2gr, 1st 1166fps 2nd 1128
9gr, 1st 1089fps 2nd 1103,
8.8gr, 1st 1083fps 2nd 1074
8.6gr, 1st 1019fps 2nd 1025
8.4gr, 1st 1035fps 2nd 996
8.2gr, 1st 986.9fps 2nd 989

Suprisingly none of these showed signs of tumbling at 25yrds. All punched a clean hole through a 1/4" particle board.
The only problem that I ran into was the fact that with the flat base of the bullet forward I had to single load each round. They would not feed from the mag. I think that if I opened up the feed ramps than they might feed.
Any suggestions on this would be wonderfull.
I am going to load more up with 8.4, 8.5, and 8.6gr and go back to the range to get more data. I will load up 15 of each to get a good spread. Will post more when I get this done.
Any suggestions would be great.

[RWBlue]

bump, so I don't loose this thread

[js1050]

great info, I can't wait to start developing subsonic .308 loads.

[Artful]

I've wanted to load some subsonic ammo for my .308's
I started with the Evil Black Rifles HK91 and FAL my buddy brought his PTR91 (hk91 clone) and we had some rounds to try out. These loads are not recommended and is only for information purposes. This is our day...

All ammo loaded in Remington 308 case's w/ 163 grain Flat Base spirepoint pulled military surplus bullets fired by CCI 250 magnum primers.

Weather 82 deg F - sunny, not much breeze... AAC Cyclone can

12 grains of Trailboss
my HK fired 1096 fps and 1061 fps in clean barre and oiled barrel then put
Hornady Oneshot Case sizing lube on bullet let dry - velocity 696.6!

My Bud's PTR91 fired in clean and oiled barrel 1093 fps and 1071 fps and 986.8 fps
then tried one with OneShot Hornaday case lube on the bullet 636.6 fps - tried another without OneShot on it 1024 fps

11.5 grains of Trailboss
My HK91 962.6 fps and 1016 fps
PRT91 994.9 fps and 829.7 fps
my FAL w/ 21" barrel 845.6 fps and 915.3 fps added OneShot 781.5 fps and 811 fps

cleaned and re-lubed barrels w/ CRC Power Lube
11 grains of TrailBoss
My HK91 785.1 fps and 726.8 fps
PTR 91 940.1 fps and 824.4 fps
FAL 856.4 fps first shot, 657.6 fps second shot, 567.0 fps third shot and 726.1 fps final shot

10.5 grains of Trail Boss
My HK91 636.7 fps and 762.5 fps
PTR91 691.8 fps and 769 fps
cleaned and lubed barrel on FAL w/ CRC Power Lube
FAL 793.7 fps 758.9 fps nice bullet holes figured I'll put the can on to see what it sounds like - 514.8 fps bullet perfect KEYHOLE in target - tried to shoot another and bullet lodged in the barrel yes did get it out - pulling all the lighter powder charges

Now keep in mind these where all individually weighed powder charges
so they are as listed to with accuracy of the balance beam scale.

Conclusions:
redo test with slightly higher powder charges and only 2 ten's change in powder charge -
That lubing the barrel doesn't keep you from sticking a bullet -
That shooting the bullets with Hornady OneShot case lube significantly slows the bullets down.
That somehow at very low velocity the addition of the suppressor caused the bullet velocity to be further retarded in the FAL - something I haven't seen with full power ammo.

[pug]

Artful interesting info. My test routine is to run an oil patch through then a dry one and fire a round. Then I start measuring the velocity and after 20 rounds I do the whole thing over. Your testing seems to confirm my rule of thumb that when the bullet drops below 750 fps you had best start looking for a stuck bullet or at least thats when they seem to start not popping out for me. Glad you could get the stuck one out. Couple of months ago I had to chop a sks because I wasn't so lucky but I got a nice parts rifle now.

[Artful]

I've wanted to load some subsonic ammo for my .308's, todays experiments concentrated on my Imbel FAL with it's 21 inch barrel. We had some more rounds to try out. These loads are not recommended and is only for information purposes. This is our day... :)

All ammo loaded in Remington 308 case's w/ 150 grain Hornady Flat Base spirepoint bullets fired by CCI 250 magnum primers. (a shorter bullet than the last bullets experimented with :wink: )

Weather 87 deg F - sunny, not much breeze... AAC Cyclone can

Last time we had taken Suputin's advise and cleaned and lubed
between groups of powder trials [http://members.shaw.ca/cronhelm/DevelopSubsonic.html],
today we wanted to see if we could use the barrel without special preperation (which is how it would mostly likely be in the field).

13 grains of Trailboss
All fed from the magazine...
Can off - Grenade gas setting 1251, 1332
Can ON - Grenade gas setting 1309, 1367, 1340
Can ON - Semi-Auto Setting 1243, 1336, 1317

12.8 grains of Trailboss
All Fed from the Magazine
Can off - Grenade gas setting 1181, 1202
Can ON - Grenade gas setting 1097, 1313, 1334, 1313, 1338, 1333

12.6 grains of Trailboss
All fed from the Magazine
Can off - Grenade gas setting 1163, 1199, 1089
Can ON - Grenade gas setting 1142, 1277, 1293, 1158, 1317

Now we had noticed an unsettling velocity gap that had developed in some of the strings and we decided to take a side branch to see why there could be several hundred feet per second spread in these carefully weighed powder charges.... deduced that the angle that the charge was in the cartridge case was playing a part in the velocity changes so to test that theory, that we tried loading ammo into the rifle in different ways.

The TILT UP method involves putting a cartridge in the chamber and then tapping the gun to settle the charge to the rear of the case then gently lowering the muzzle to the rifle rest and firing the charge.

The other method of loading the charged cartridges, was done by laying the cartridge on top of the magazine leaving the rifle facing the target and hitting the bolt release, which will distribute the powder more or less evenly over the bottom of the case as the BOLT Rammed it home.

first we just wanted to see if the up tilt was going to produce a difference

12.4 Grains of Trailboss
Can off - Grenade gas Setting - up 929.2 , up 1079, up 1146
Can ON - Grenade gas setting - up 929.0, up 1016,
Can ON - Grenade gas setting - bolt 1324, bolt 1311,
Can ON - Grenade gas setting - up 1115

12.2 Grains of Trailboss
Can off - Grenade gas setting - up 986.2, up 1120, up 1148, up 992.2
Can ON - Grenade gas setting - up 951.9, up 1117, up 1185, up 1145

12.0 Grains of Trailboss
Can off - Grenade gas setting - up 956.1, up 960.0
Can ON - Grenade gas setting - up 1087, up 1141
Can ON - Grenade gas setting - bolt 1282, bolt 1281, bolt 1268, bolt 1247

11.8 Grains of Trailboss
Can off - Grenade gas setting - up 950.6, up 1170
Can ON - Grenade gas setting - up 1024, up 1147
Can ON - Grenade gas setting - bolt 1261, bolt 1220, bolt 1232, bolt 1208

All holes in the paper target exhibited roundness with no tipping evident, but several times it was noticed a wide swing between impact area's with can on vs off and again between tilted and bolt loading but I would expect this with velocity veriations at these slower velocities.

Now keep in mind these where all individually weighed powder charges
so they are as listed to with accuracy of the balance beam scale.

Conclusions:
While lubing will help with subsonic loads, I'm not sure it's required.

Not even the hottest load attempted to cycle the action.

Evidently Trailboss is sensative to powder position (in fact moving the powder to the rear of the case seems to lower the velocity by several hundred feet per second with the same powder charge)

While case loading density is about 1/2 the case, I'm not yet sold that Trailboss is the best choice for subsonic loading.

[pug]

I was hoping you would get more than a 50% density case loading because that is the problem with fast pistol powders. As the powder shifts around the burn varies and so does the velocity but unfortunately as far as I know Trailboss is the most dense that is of the right speed and has a volume of .217cc per grain. Keep in mind if you allow the bolt to slam it home rather than hand chamber it all of the powder ends up around the bullet. Don't know if you want to try it but if you seat the bullet to the lands (start with lot lower charge) or use a strong crimp the start pressure may smooth out and give more uniform velocity. Don't pay any attention to the variations you get between can on and can off and only look at one or the other. The barrel vibrations change between on and off and will drive you crazy if you try to work with both at the same time. Your testing sounds like fun to me but unfortunately I am late in the game and just starting with the 300 fireball and I hope to build a pull bolt pistol chambered in it otherwise I would jump right in :). The only other thing I can remember someone using (with suppressor) in a high volume case is gun cotton as a filler. Not even sure the public can use that now (nitro cellulose but in fluffy form).

[Artful]

Crimp is with Lee Factory crimp - it's not moving very easy. As Trailboss seems to be the new golden haired child - I might try some with forgotten cousins (RedDot or Unique)... I'm thinking about what I've experienced so far.
:cool:

[pug]

Yep that is what testing is all about. N320 is another good powder for subsonic use. I use that for 9mm subsonics and it gives a very quiet sound signature. Too fast for gas systems but great with blowback and bolt actions. Have to move to N330 if loading 158gr in 9mm or pressure is too high.

[jarhead1086]

VV320 is great for sub 9, thats what I use in my Uzi and its the quietest. I got that load from Doc Dater. As far as .308 goes I love the Blaylock .30 BGW brass, but I wore my 20 brass out and can't find more. I've always wanted to fill up some of my .308 BR brass with a high temp epoxy to the neck and bore a .300 hole down to the small primer pocket to duplicate the $5 Blaylock brass. I got very consistent groups and velocities with AA#9 as long as the bullets were no heavier than 150 since I have a 1:12. I have the BR brass, I just keep screwing around on the internet too much.

[Artful]

I've wanted to load some subsonic ammo for my .308's, todays experiments concentrated on my Imbel FAL with it's 21 inch barrel. We had some more rounds to try out. These loads are not recommended and is only for information purposes. This is our day...

All ammo loaded in Remington 308 case's with flash hole expanded to 1/8th inch and 163 grain Pulled Military FMJ Flat Base spirepoint bullets that had been coated with Moly Disulfite dry lube from Bruno's fired by CCI 250 magnum primers. (same as first experiment :wink: )

Weather 76 deg F - sunny, not much breeze...
AAC Cyclone can wasn't used today

Last time we had taken Suputin's advise and cleaned and lubed
between groups of powder trials [http://members.shaw.ca/cronhelm/DevelopSubsonic.html],
today we wanted to see if we could use the barrel without special preperation
(which is how it would mostly likely be in the field).

first loading was
13 grains of Trailboss
Can Off - 936.3 1220
Can Off tilt up before firing - 1238 1112
Can On tilt up before firing - 1155

last time in experiment 2 with 13 grains of Trailboss with smaller normal flashhole it gave
Can off - Grenade gas setting 1251, 1332
Can ON - Grenade gas setting 1309, 1367, 1340
Can ON - Semi-Auto Setting 1243, 1336, 1317

12.8 grains of Trailboss
All Fed from the Magazine
Can off - Grenade gas setting 1181, 1202
Can ON - Grenade gas setting 1097, 1313, 1334, 1313, 1338, 1333

12.6 grains of Trailboss
All fed from the Magazine
Can off - Grenade gas setting 1163, 1199, 1089
Can ON - Grenade gas setting 1142, 1277, 1293, 1158, 1317

Today we got
12.5 grains of Trailboss
Can Off - 816.2 1142
Can Off tilt up before firing - 1087, 988.8, 1074

12 grains of Trailboss
Can Off - 1080 1070
Can Off tilt up before firing - 904.6, 815.1

11.5 grains of Trailboss
Can Off - 795.5, 940.2
Can Off tilt up before firing - 1145, 1092, 698.4

11 grains of Trailboss
Can Off - 597 768.9
Can Off tilt up before firing - 680.9 953.1

10.5 grains of Trailboss
Can Off - 256.2 , 690.5, 829.0 699.8
Can Off tilt up before firing - 494.3

We terminated the experiment at that point due to low velocities exhibited we had gone below the target range of speed we were looking for.

*The TILT UP method involves putting a cartridge in the chamber and then tapping the gun to settle the charge to the rear of the case then gently lowering the muzzle to the rifle rest and firing the charge.

The other method of loading the charged cartridges, was done by laying the cartridge on top of the magazine leaving the rifle facing the target and hitting the bolt release, which will distribute the powder more or less evenly over the bottom of the case as the BOLT Rammed it home.

NOT all holes in the paper target exhibited roundness with tipping evident, the shorter 150 grain bullets used last time in standard FAL barrel do better.

Now keep in mind these where all individually weighed powder charges
so they are as listed to with accuracy of the balance beam scale and electronic scales.

Conclusions:
While lubing bullet with Moly will help with subsonic loads (ie no sticking bullets) I didn't see large difference in it velocity wise.

Not even the hottest load attempted to cycle the action.

Evidently Trailboss is sensative to powder position (in fact moving the powder to the rear of the case seems to lower the velocity by several hundred feet per second with the same powder charge and I think I may have moved the powder to the front of the case inadvertantly before firing the 256 fps shot :shock: ) we were hoping that opening the primer flashhole up would eliminate this problem but it didn't.

While case loading density is less than 1/2 the case, I'm not yet sold that Trailboss is the best choice for subsonic loading. Still looking for better solution for reloading subsonics at home.

[Artful]

Subsonic reload experiment # 4
Date-April-26-2007
Rifle-Mossburg 800A bolt action
Barrel Length-22 inches
Twist-1:12
Temperature-94 (warming up)
Case-Remington mostly
Case Prep-Epoxy Filled to bottom of neck. Flash hole drilled to 1/8”, ½” up from bottom of case. 17/64” drilled from Case mouth to meet flash hole, Leaving reduced capacity casing. Which was filled with
-8.2 grns of Blue Dot Gun Powder.
Bullet-150gr SP Remington Moly coated loader to the canalure Lee factory crimp applied.
Primer-CCI 250 LR Mag

10 Rounds created and Fired for test.
1st 5 with gun on bench rest cartridge inserted into chamber
1334,* 1321, *1241, *1270, *1214
2nd 5 with cartrdige chambered rifle tipped up and tapped
1079, 1156, 1191, 1723, 1092

Comments,
Didn’t use same maker in all cases. (we thought we had)
Epoxy fill may not have been consistent as it was loaded to
same area but wasn't weighted or measured but the epoxy stated in same state after first firing. Can only be neck sized at this point.
Powder load was exact in all loads so unsure of why the 1723 fps round?
All rounds fired showed no keyhole effect pretty good grouping.
try varying the powder charge on next go round.


308 subsonic experiment #5
Went up into the cool Arizona mountains on 5-09-07 10:00 am
80 deg F at 3170 ft elevation.

Used 150 grain PSP Rem loaded over 8.0 gr Blue Dot in epoxy filled and drilled cases 2nd firing CCI 250 Mag primer with primer flashhole drilled out to 1/8" loaded to OAL 2.466 out of 21" FAL 1:12 twist barrel.

just loaded from magazine clean oiled barrel.
___case weight 203.0 empty 211.1 primed/powdered gave 1032 fps
___case weight 202.0 empty 210.0 primed/powdered gave 1188 fps
___case weight 207.0 empty 215.0 primed/powdered gave 1198 fps
put AAC Cyclone suppressor on
___case weight 203.8 empty 211.8 primed/powdered gave 1195 fps
___case weight 203.4 empty 211.5 primed/powdered gave 1222 fps
___case weight 203.3 empty 211.3 primed/powdered gave 1215 fps
just loaded from magazine
___case weight 203.1 empty 211.2 primed/powdered gave 1170 fps
___case weight 205.9 empty 213.9 primed/powdered gave 1113 fps
___case weight 218.9 empty 226.9 primed/powdered gave 1182 fps
___case weight 201.2 empty 218.2 primed/powdered gave 1253 fps

Load Density about 65% of the restricted case...skipped tilt test
accuracy good - all holes nice and round.

[Artful]

Test date 7/21/07 time 8:00 am to 10:30 am
Temp 98-103 Humidity 36%
Sunny and clear Wind 4 knots
Far East Valley out of Phoenix AZ

Cases filled to bottom of neck with Plastic clay and baked at 300 degrees for 20 min to solidify.

Flash hole diameter drilled at 1/8”, 3/16” up from rim.

Powder cavity diameter drilled at 3/16”,
drilled down from neck to need extended flash hole.
Remington 150gr Bullet PSP - moly coated
Each case loaded with 3 gr of Red Dot

(this loaded filled the cavity 7/8” up from bottom of case. filling the case to the bottom of the neck holds 5.7gr of Red Dot with bullet seated you have room for 4.7 grains of Red Dot)

Case—Remington with primer hole drilled out.

Each of 7 rounds weighed in grains loaded, velocity in FPS, FAL with or without can, overall length

#-Weight..Feet Per second...Suppressed....OAL
1-372.4....486.6...................yes.............. ..2.705
2-374.0...605.1....................no............... ..2.700
3-372.6...525.8...................yes............... .2.700
4-370.8...438.6...................no................ ..2.700
5-374.1...573.2...................no................ ..2.702
6-371.6...372.1..................no................. ..2.699
7-374.0...511.3..................no................. ..2.695

Needless to say I'll be upping the charge to see if it improves the consistancy of velocity and trying to get closer to 1000 fps.

[d-mon]

Hi everybody,
I have done some trials at the range with my 308.
It is a Sako action with a 23 inches Lothar walther barrel and a MAE (pes) Suppressor.
As We do not have to many types of powders here in NZ, I have used Adi AP50N, behind a 150 grains Sierra spitzer flatbase soft point, federal cases fully prepared, Winchester large rifle primers.

With 7 grains the velocities averaged 800fps, with 8 grains I was arround 1000fps and with 8.5 arround 1100 fps.

Remember that this load work only im my rifle and that i am not responsible for any accident that may result from you using that load in you rifle... etc.

If you have a look at the following link, you will notice that the powder i used is very closed from the Trail boss mentionned earlier on:
http://www.adi-limited.com/handloaders-guide/burning_rates.asp

Next tests will involve the accuracy at 100m .
ND

[m21black]

Can you provide some loading data on the 300 Whisper using the Winchester 231 powder. I have been using the H 110 powder.

[Artful]

Test date 7/21/07 time 8:00 am to 10:30 am
Temp 98-103 Humidity 36%
Sunny and clear Wind 4 knots
Far East Valley out of Phoenix AZ

Cases filled to bottom of neck with Plastic clay and baked at 300 degrees for 20 min to solidify.

Flash hole diameter drilled at 1/8”, 3/16” up from rim.

Powder cavity diameter drilled at 3/16”,
drilled down from neck to need extended flash hole.
Remington 150gr Bullet PSP - moly coated
Each case loaded with 3 gr of Red Dot

(this loaded filled the cavity 7/8” up from bottom of case. filling the case to the bottom of the neck holds 5.7gr of Red Dot with bullet seated you have room for 4.7 grains of Red Dot)

Case—Remington with primer hole drilled out.

Each of 7 rounds weighed in grains loaded, velocity in FPS, FAL with or without can, overall length

#-Weight..Feet Per second...Suppressed....OAL
1-372.4....486.6...................yes.............. ..2.705
2-374.0...605.1....................no............... ..2.700
3-372.6...525.8...................yes............... .2.700
4-370.8...438.6...................no................ ..2.700
5-374.1...573.2...................no................ ..2.702
6-371.6...372.1..................no................. ..2.699
7-374.0...511.3..................no................. ..2.695

Needless to say I'll be upping the charge to see if it improves the consistancy of velocity and trying to get closer to 1000 fps.

Next Test

Test date 9/22/07 time 9:00 am to 10:30 am
Temp 80-83 Humidity 25%
Sunny and clear Wind 1-2 knots
Far West Valley out of Phoenix AZ

Cases filled to bottom of neck with Plastic clay and baked at 300 degrees for 20 min to solidify.

Flash hole diameter drilled at 1/8”, 3/16” up from rim.

Powder cavity diameter drilled at 3/16”,
drilled down from neck to need extended flash hole.
Remington 150gr Bullet PSP - moly coated
Each case loaded with 4.2 gr of Red Dot

(this loaded filled the cavity 7/8” up from bottom of case. filling the case to the bottom of the neck holds 5.7gr of Red Dot with bullet seated you have room for 4.7 grains of Red Dot)

Case—Remington with primer hole drilled out.

Each of 7 rounds weighed in grains loaded, velocity in FPS, FAL with or without can, overall length

All were shot Suppressed

#-..Feet Per second.......OAL

1-..851.4......................2.701

2-..872.6......................2.700

3-..856.8......................2.700

4-..854.7......................2.701

5-..838.1......................2.701

6-..846.1......................2.700

7-..816.3......................2.699

Lost some of the filler upon firing :frown:

- found new direction :cool:

http://data.hodgdon.com/cartridge_load.asp

Cartridge: 308 Winchester
Load Type: Rifle
Starting Loads

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Maximum Loads

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Bullet Weight (Gr.) Order BW Powder Bullet Diam. C.O.L. Grs. Vel. (ft/s) Pressure Grs. Vel. (ft/s) Pressure

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


168 GR. SIE HPBT 168 Titegroup .308" 2.800" 8.0 1080 25,000 CUP

168 GR. SIE HPBT 168 Clays .308" 2.800" 8.0 1060 26,800
CUP


Cartridge: 223 Remington Load Type: Rifle
Starting Loads

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Maximum Loads

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Bullet Weight (Gr.) Order BW Powder Bullet Diam. C.O.L. Grs. Vel. (ft/s) Pressure Grs. Vel. (ft/s) Pressure

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

55 GR. HDY FMJ 55 Titegroup .224" 2.200" 3.1 1064 4,000 CUP

55 GR. HDY FMJ 55 Clays .224" 2.200" 3.2 1060 3,700 CUP

:grin:

[Artful]

Test date 9/30/07 time 10:30 am to Noon
Temp 80's Humidity 25%
Sunny and clear Wind 1-2 knots
Cottonwood AZ

Flash hole diameter drilled at 1/8”.
Horny 168gr HPBT - moly coated

Case—Remington with primer CCI 250. 2.800 OAL

All were shot Suppressed out of 21 inch FAL barrel
info from http://data.hodgdon.com/cartridge_load.asp

Titegroup 8.0 grains Shots FPS 966 1220 953 1123 1263

Clays 8.0 grains FPS 1183 1215 1223 1213 1111

next tried lower powder charges - not recommended by website

Titegroup 7.9 grains FPS 1145 1142 831.5 707 1264

Clays 7.9 garins FPS 1133 1067 1566 1191 711

Lowered by .1 grains more

Titegroup 7.8 grains FPS 2207?!* 1063 1185 764 787 - *suspected fault of chrono read maybe due to reflection as sounded subsonic

Clays 7.8 grn FPS 1156 1174 1188 1168 - note one shot errored on chrono

Lowered again

Titegroup 7.7 grains FPS 1192 1238 1254 1215 1247

Clays 7.7 grains 1078 846.5 827.1 883.1 - note one shot errored on chrono

[Artful]

Shot 10/23/2007
changed to non-flashhole drilled WIN case with WIN Large Pistol primer.
Using Hornaday 168 BTHP

Powder___Load_____OAL____Velicity
Titegroup__8.0 gr 2.800____1163-1298-1280-1292-1282
Titegroup__7.8 gr__2.800____1009-1248-1254-1264-1267
Titegroup __7.6 gr_ 2.800____957.2-1208-1238-1227-1239

Clays_____ 8.0 gr__2.800___916.9-1207-1199-1212-1189
Clays_____ 7.8 gr__2.800___827.0-1148-1152-1160-1169
Clays_____ 7.6 gr__2.800___815.4-1078-1117-1113-1157

Note the first round shoot in each group had a significan velocity drop
for some reason - accuracte was reasonable - round holes at 80 yards
in the target - about 15 inches of drop over normal loadings.

Conclusion it appears that faster powders like pistol primers more - Will load up some more with different bullets of similar weight and retest for accuracy and try and find out what the first shot being lower velocity is all about.

[m21black]

looks like a lot of your 308 loads are not subsonic based on the velocities provided I like 1020 to 1060fps...

[Artful]

In sunny AZ you can get away with a little more speed :wink:

when it's in 90's here about 1140 it starts getting very noise - anything over 1150 your booming - I'm still just trying to get a good reliable non-position sensitive load going. :cool:

I was really hoping trailboss was going to be my answer:frown:

but we keep trying.

[m21black]

build a whisper is all I can say...

[Artful]

Got one, but I'm stubborn and want my 308 subsonic cheap as well, the prices the other guys are charging for "factory" ammo is a little much.:eek:

[jarhead1086]

Artful, you need some Blaylock brass. Dale Blaylock used to have a site and sell the stuff and suppressors too. There has to be some around. My Blaylock brass dosen't fit my chamber now that it was rechambered. I was getting great results in my 16" 1:12 boltgun using about 8.7 grains of AA#9 and 175 MK's. Maybe you should try the AA#9 in your filled cases? Blaylock brass has a small primer pocket and I was using rifle primers. Benchrest brass with the plastic clay would duplicate this I would think. Blaylock sold me a Leupold scope with dots for every 50 yards of drop for subsonic and a line for supersonic which I still use too, but he has disappeared. I still remember my first shot and being amazed that I watched the hole appear on the paper. Instant addiction and Hollywood quiet. The factory subsonic has all been disappointing except for the EBR.

[zooly22]

Try this link. I plan to order some of these for my 30-30 SS Handy on monday. www.stealthround.com


zooly22

[jarhead1086]

Thanks Zooly 22. This is over priced though I think. I paid $100 for 20 CNC brass Blaylock cases. I sent a couple old cases recently to Quick Silver Manufacturing in ID for an example. I have a few ideas to make the cases last even longer than the 10 or 15 shots each that they lasted. I know we could make a better case for less money using my ideas. The biggest problem I had was getting the neck annealed properly with the thick walled body acting like a heat sink. I just have to convince somebody with an NC lathe that interest exists and make a run. I will try to get some price quotes after I model them. My Redding neck sizer has an adjustment for partially sizing the neck, so these tools are extra cost that I wouldn't use personally. You know some dummy will try to full length size one : ) I bet a bulky Trailboss load would fill up a case like this.

[Artful]

Thanks for the suggestion but I would like something other than Aluminum cases and still hope I luck into a combination that will be subsonic and group as well - Next I'm going to try other cheap bullets (170 grain RN 30-30 bullets next then 180 grainers, hopefully they will stabalize in FAL's barrel):wink:

[pug]

Artful have you ever mic'ed the neck of your first fired case and compared it to later fired cases?

[rumlover]

308
10" encore 1/8 twist

240 SMK's with 12-15gr trail boss seems to keep me in the 950-1010 range. I just can't seem to get to the 1050 mark. Any suggestions?

[Artful]

Artful have you ever mic'ed the neck of your first fired case and compared it to later fired cases?

Please expand upon your question - Mic'd after first firing and again after the 5th firing of the same case? Or compare between cases fired in the same chamber with same loads? or ...?

[pug]

Just wondering if fired case #1 may have a smaller neck diameter than fired case #5 shooting five of the same loads in the same chamber. I was looking at the first round lower velocity you had posted.

[Artful]

Shot 12/15/2007 50 deg F 12 noon - winter in Arizona :grin:
IMBEL FAL 21" barrel -
7.9grn Clays with 170 Grn RN Remington 30-30 bullets
2.695 OAL - Lee factory crimp .002 - WIN Large Pistol primer.

This bullet has more bearing surface which caused the first shot to stick in the barrel. (unlubed and cold) argh :mad:

Velocities recorded after that shot warmed up the barrel.
865.6*, 789.2, 789.8, 679.2 784.3, 810.9 815.7, 793.0, 813.6, 789.6 798.6

*all shot on Grenade out of FAL with cyclone suppressor on except the 865.6 2nd shot

going to up the powder charge and try it again accuracy seemed ok but I was just shooting rocks and you had to hold over quite a bit to hit 'em (guess work but it seemed consistant) - Nice and quiet though

[Artful]

Just wondering if fired case #1 may have a smaller neck diameter than fired case #5 shooting five of the same loads in the same chamber. I was looking at the first round lower velocity you had posted.

Well I can check on that but doubt any difference will be found - their was a link given to me about long barrels and lower first round fired phenomina - If you want I'll find it. Their solution was to shorten the barrel to something under 20 inches I don't want to do that to my FAL :eek:

[Artful]

308
10" encore 1/8 twist

240 SMK's with 12-15gr trail boss seems to keep me in the 950-1010 range. I just can't seem to get to the 1050 mark. Any suggestions?

You could try a hotter primer, or lube the bullets / barrel. Personally I'd be happy at consistant 1010 - 40 fps won't be noticed at the other end.

[rumlover]

I'm aready using LRM primers. The problem biggest was accuracy. once I got to 12 gr (TB) I seemed to max out in vel with an average of 980ish. The range went anywhere from 860-1040. This created a pie plate group, generally vertical in nature. It filled up the cases with the 240s so I wouldn't think there would be an issue of powder placement at ignition.

I tried 15 gr of Greendot and pierced a primer. 10.5 gr in a 16" krieger got me 1050 behind a 220 RNSP, but the powder had to seated against the primer. This did create excellent accuracy, but I missed 3 deer last year because the rifle was generally pointed down (treestand) and the powder was against the bullet.

Also, I've been getting the first shot to dump on every string. Consequently, as I was shooting those loads Friday, I would wait 15-20 min between shots. Shooting 200 Speer Spitzers, 12.0 TB, WIN LRM primers, Rem Cases, 10" Encore, 1/8; I averaged 960fps with a range of 946-974. By allowing the bore to return to ambient temp (33deg) I had a better representation of actual velocities that I would find in the field and lowered the range of velocities.

I'd like to try another powder. Based on the posts I've found AA#9 or IMR SC4957 (I think that's the right powder, I'll have to check my notes). I looked up the IMR powder and it was specifically formulated for reduced velocity loads. I also came across some Accurate 2215 (?) at Gander MT which said it was also formulated for low volume loads and a hig tolerance to powder position at ignition.

Any idea what length barrel it would take to get TB to push a 240 at 1050? I don't have another 1/8 twist barrel to test with, just the 10". With a little extrapolation, I was figuring each inch would gain 7fps, but I'm not certain.

If I don't get it worked out in the next month, I'll order a 16" whisper upper. I would assume someone has found an accurate 240 load for that.

[Artful]

I'm aready using LRM primers. The problem biggest was accuracy. once I got to 12 gr (TB) I seemed to max out in vel with an average of 980ish. The range went anywhere from 860-1040. This created a pie plate group, generally vertical in nature. It filled up the cases with the 240s so I wouldn't think there would be an issue of powder placement at ignition.

I tried 15 gr of Greendot and pierced a primer.

I noticed Trailboss and Greendot are supposed to be similar burning rates but they don't have same volume - sounds like a slower powder is required

10.5 gr in a 16" krieger got me 1050 behind a 220 RNSP, but the powder had to seated against the primer. This did create excellent accuracy, but I missed 3 deer last year because the rifle was generally pointed down (treestand) and the powder was against the bullet.

First are you using a suppressor? If NOT then a bit of gun cotton or polyester fiberfill will hold the powder in place against the primer. problem solved.! If you are then your like me looking for a solution still :frown:

Also, I've been getting the first shot to dump on every string. Consequently, as I was shooting those loads Friday, I would wait 15-20 min between shots. Shooting 200 Speer Spitzers, 12.0 TB, WIN LRM primers, Rem Cases, 10" Encore, 1/8; I averaged 960fps with a range of 946-974. By allowing the bore to return to ambient temp (33deg) I had a better representation of actual velocities that I would find in the field and lowered the range of velocities.
Do you lube the barrel before the first shot?

I'd like to try another powder. Based on the posts I've found AA#9 or IMR SC4957 (I think that's the right powder, I'll have to check my notes). I looked up the IMR powder and it was specifically formulated for reduced velocity loads. I also came across some Accurate 2215 (?) at Gander MT which said it was also formulated for low volume loads and a hig tolerance to powder position at ignition.
I'm trying varous powders that others have suggested to me Unique, BlueDot and 2400 and some AA5744 as Trailboss was designed for cast bullet loads and the factory said they didn't recommend it with jacketed I've sort of given up on it unless I try a heavier bullet load as others in rifles seem to be doing better with it. Obviously in shorter pistol barrel your still having issues.

Any idea what length barrel it would take to get TB to push a 240 at 1050? I don't have another 1/8 twist barrel to test with, just the 10". With a little extrapolation, I was figuring each inch would gain 7fps, but I'm not certain.

The 45th Edition of the Lyman Reloading Handbook also has a table showing Center Fire Rifle Velocity Vs. Barrel Length. Their figures apply to barrels between 20 and 26 inches in length.
For rifles with muzzle velocities in the 1000-2000 fps range, the change in velocity for each 1" change in barrel length is 5 fps.
For rifles with muzzle velocities in the 2001-2500 fps range, the change in velocity for each 1" change in barrel length is 10 fps.
For rifles with muzzle velocities in the 2501-3000 fps range, the change in velocity for each 1" change in barrel length is 20 fps.
For rifles with muzzle velocities in the 3001-3500 fps range, the change in velocity for each 1" change in barrel length is 30 fps.
For rifles with muzzle velocities in the 3501-4000 fps range, the change in velocity for each 1" change in barrel length is 40 fps.

The 43rd edition of the Lyman reloading Handbook gave examples of velocity loss for specific calibers and loads. The Lyman technicians chronographed some high velocity cartridges in rifles with barrels ranging in length from 26" down to 22" with the following results:

The average loss for the .243 Win./100 grain bullet was 29 fps per inch.
The average loss for the .264 Win. Mag./140 grain bullet was 32 fps per inch.
The average loss for the .300 H&H Mag./220 grain bullet was 25 fps per inch.

For standard high intensity cartridges in the same test, the Lyman technicians chronographed the cartridges in barrel lengths ranging in length from 24" down to 20" with the following results:

The average loss for the .270 Win./130 grain bullet was 37 fps per inch.
The average loss for the .270 Win./150 grain bullet was 32 fps per inch.
The average loss for the .300 Sav./180 grain bullet was 17 fps per inch.
The average loss for the .30-06/180 grain bullet was 15 fps per inch.
The average loss for the .35 Rem./200 grain bullet was 11 fps per inch.

The rule of thumb is that high speed, high pressure cartridges shed more speed in short barrels than do the low speed, large bore types.

good link
http://www.loadammo.com/Topics/October05.htm

The table below lists the velocity change for different barrel lengths for several popular calibers. under 308 they had

.308 Win. 150grain loaded with 40.5 of 4895 giving 2,531 in 24" barrel
Difference in Velocity for a 2" change in barrel Length in fps
22 to 20" chg of 40 fps per inch
24 to 22" chg of 36 fps per inch
26 to 24" chg of 32 fps per inch
28 to 26" chg of 28 fps per inch

Note that the greater velocity increase, per inch of barrel length, generally occurs in the shortest barrel length. As the barrel is lengthened the velocity increase, per inch of barrel length, decreases. It appears as we shorten/Lengthen the interval the per inch change increases by 4 fps per inch, so extrapolating this as
44 fps per inch change from 20" to 18"
48 fps per inch change from 18" to 16"
52 fps per inch change from 16" to 14"
56 fps per inch change from 14" to 12"
60 fps per inch change from 12" to 10"

Now all this is with Full power 308 ammo not subsonic loading which will have way shorter change per inch due to lower pressure loads. So you may be right only way to know for sure is take a long 308 barrel and using subsonic ammo and cut it back an increament at a time.


If I don't get it worked out in the next month, I'll order a 16" whisper upper. I would assume someone has found an accurate 240 load for that.
Yep, it's much easier with smaller case. I just want standard 308/762 case that I can reload a bunch for that does what the $2 a shot comerically reloaded rounds do. :tongue:

Let me know if you want links to any of the information I have found.

[rumlover]

I shoot a thundertrap on the 16" krieger and a 762sd on the 10" pistol so fillers won't be the solution unless there is something that will easily dissolve the residue in the can. The 308 expense is what I'm looking for. I have heard of some folks buying 223 brass and reforming it with a die, then fire forming it in the chamber as a cheap way to get into the 300. I don't have any interest in another expensive speciality caliber. The 50 alaskan I got is about as much as I'm willing to spend per round as I would like to be able to afford to shoot a lot. I chose it because the straight walled case will last about 12-14 reloadings v/s the 7-8 necked cases in 50 cal and the brass is half the cost and readily available.

Any idea what's the shortest length of 300 Whisper barrel I'd have to have to get a 240 SMK to 1100?

I'm going to order some of the IMR SR4759 and AA#9 to see what I can come up with for the 308. I'm also going to return to Gander Mt to buy the Accurate 2415 (or somethig close to that) that was labeled specifically for low volume loads. As for the unique, I loaded 5 rounds of 14 gr behind the 240's tonight for the pistol. I'll post results when I get back from our lease in tejas and Lousyana...hopefully with some subload results form hogs.

[rumlover]

Almost forgot, what/how are you lubing the barrel? I'd like to test it out.

[Artful]

I've tried some spray on lubes (one-shot case lube for example).
CRC lube, CLP, usually just wet a patch and pull thru the barrel. then run a dry patch afterwards - use the wet patch to rub the bullet. Someone suggest animal fat (bear grease/bacon fat) but I haven't tried that, yet:rolleyes:

[rumlover]

I remember reading about the bear fat back in the last 90's when I first started looking for sub loads. I never gave it much thought, but will try lubing the barrel, minus the bear fat.
.

[zebby001]

JF or anyone,
I am a newbee to the suppresion world... I have an DPMS 308 (16" with 1x10) and have a supressor from aroura tactical... For somone that dont reload, is there somewhere that I can buy subsonic amo that will cycle...
I have read lots of your post on the 300 whisper-ishes and am now thinking that I am way over my head...

Thanks for any help that can be offered...
Zebbby001

[Artful]

You can get .308 subsonic ammo but I have never heard of it cycling semi-auto's -

TTI -
http://www.impactguns.com/store/TTI-308-1003.html
TTI 308 SUBS 170G 20/BX
Price: $19.99
Manufacturer: TTI
Manufacturer Item #: 308-1003
Impact Item #: TTI-308-1003
Out of stock: Ships in 2-3 Weeks. Accepting orders

http://www.gunrunner.com/308T.html
Engle Ballistic Research .308 Thumper (TM)
Subsonic Match Ammunition
7.62 x 51mm (500 rounds, 25 boxes of 20 per case)

1 box, $25.20

2-5 boxes, $23.40

6-9 boxes, $21.60

10-16 boxes, $20.00

17-24 boxes, $19.00

25 boxes or case, $450.00 or $18".00 per box

10 cases +, $427.50 Per case (5% discount)

Recommended 18" or 20" heavy barrel, suppressed, 1:10" twist, no porting
Warning! Do not fire any subsonic rifle caliber ammunition in H&K firearms or any firearm which has a fluted chamber, This type of chamber prevents cartridge case obturation, allowing propellant gasses to escape out the breech, and possibly sticking a projectile in the bore. Subsequent firing with a bore so obstructed can cause serious injury or death.
All ammunition is manufactured to strict tolerances from new components.
Be sure to include photo copy of your FFL or driver's license
Minimum age: 18 years for rifle ammo, 21 years for pistol ammo.

http://www.midwayusa.com/eproductpage.exe/showproduct?saleitemid=998404&t=11082005
Lapua Subsonic Ammunition 308 Winchester 200 Grain Full Metal Jacket Box of 20
Attention!
You must be 18 or older to order ammunition. Ammunition must ship UPS ground. For safety reasons, we cannot accept returns on Ammunition. Make sure you use the correct ammunition in your gun. Check your local laws before ordering.
Technical Specifications & Use
Average Customer Rating: Not Rated.
Package Size
Application Charts & Information
Product #: 998404
Manufacturer #: 4317340
Our Price: $36.99
Status: Available
Should Ship Next Business Day
99% of Orders Placed by 4:00 p.m. CT
(Monday-Friday, Except Holidays) Ship Same Day

Oh, and BLACKHILLS makes subsonic loads but won't sell to
mere mortals but I have seen it used in reviews by the likes
of AL PAULSON and other LEO testers.

[zebby001]

Artful,

Thanks for you help... I have been watching alot of vidios and reading alot and it seems that most everyone is loading there own and
getting it to cycle through there AR's...

Guess I will just start buying and trying...
Thanks...
ZBY

[rumlover]

Anyone tried AA 9 for the 308? I've been google-ing to find something on this powder but have only found stuff for the 300 Fireball.

I got some SR 4759 today and will load up some 240, 220, and 200 SMKs tonight. I'm going to start at 20 gr and work down to 14 or so. If anyone has tried this powder for heavy subs, please share what you found.

[rumlover]

SR 4759 was the tickett.

10" Encore Pistol, 308, 1/8 twist
53deg, drizzle, 15mph wind @ 270 deg

240 smk:(each load was roughly around half the case capacity, then the 240's took up a lot of what was leftover)

18 gr got me 1257, 1256, 1246, 1223, and 1237

Went straight to 14 gr which got me 989, 992, 967, 981 and 1005

Then went to the 16 gr which got me 1098, 1104, 1101, 1094, and 1103

I didn't shoot for accuracy for the first two loads and was more focused on getting the few rounds I had over the crony eyes. When I got to the 16 gr loads, I started shooting for a group and put all within a half dollar from 50 yards. Keep in mind, this is a pistol off a bench, I thought that was damn good. I cleaned with CLP between each shot and let the barrel cool. I also didn't bump the powder against the pirmer.

I also loaded some 200 SMKs with 12.2 gr of Trailboss. While the 200 is not what I bought the barrel for, I had all this TB sitting around and wanted to use it for something. While I missed the 1050fps mark, the average of 10 shots was 964 with a range of 956 to 974 and all shots were touching at 50.

Next up for the 240 SMK will be 50 rounds of 15.5gr sr4759 to shoot for groups, compare powder position, and devolop range cards. I'm also going to try 14 gr behind a 220 rnsp in the 16", 1/10 krieger.

I pulled some 240s out of the berm. Totally deformed in the soft mud. I'll email pics if anyone wants them.

[Night Shooter]

I would be real interested in your load data for the 220 SMK in the 300 Whisper with Win 321. I'm new to the site, but my interests are sound suppresson and accurate out to two hunderd meters.

George at THG is a real profectionest and a great person. I met him at the last Sniper Shoot in Boise, ID.

TR

[rumlover]

ARTFUL, you were right on with the lubing the barrel. I'd push a CLP patch through followed by a dry patch and each first shot was withing 1 SD of the mean vel.

[Artful]

1/8/08 windy and cool
http://img231.imageshack.us/img231/416/jerryandart04zd4.jpg

Powder—Clays—8.1gr Case------Remington
Primer---CCI 250 Bullet---Remington—170gr SPCL-RN
OAL----2.747 Crimp--.003
Test Rifle—FAL—Suppressed
Vel. fps
758.3
875.8
867.6
782.0
846.6
697.7
827.1
766.3
761.4
828.9
816.5
809.9
771.7
762.5
800.4
http://img100.imageshack.us/img100/9489/010808170rnsubsonicgrourw6.jpg
Notes: One round stuck in Barrel and one stopped in suppressor! :shock:
Cleaning and re-Oiling the barrel seemed to alleviate the problem.
also notice with .003 lee factory crimp velocities ran a little low

#13 A
Powder—Clays—8.1gr Case------Remington
Primer---CCI 250 Bullet---Hornady---168gr--BTHP
OAL----2.800 Crimp--None
Test Rifle—FAL—Suppressed

777.1 * note: first round slower probably due to long barrel cold steel
999.1
975.9
1035
1031
1024
1033
1036
1017
http://img231.imageshack.us/img231/9759/010808168subsonicgroupku8.jpg
Only change was the bullet (less bearing surface) & crimp - note higher velocity and it grouped better as well.

hear a shot compare

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wMIomwkvyBQ

the big noise is someone's AR without a can :wink:

Photographic credits to Sparky007

[Artful]

2/22/2008 - about 55 to 60 deg F Beautiful Sunshine morning in AZ.

Loaded some more 168 Hornady 168 BTHP over 8.0 gr of CLAYS powder
First batch with cci #34 primers 2.800 OAL in Rem. cases NO Crimp

Ran bore snake thru with nitro solvent then followed with CLP patch
thru 21" FAL with AAC Cyclone attached - set on single shot (Grenade)

Ran two chrono's in Tandem
http://img215.imageshack.us/img215/7236/tandemchronyssh4.jpg

First batch of 9 out of the clean/oiled barrel

1st_______2nd
Chrony ... Chrony ___Dif
1134_____1143_____+ 9
1118_____1123_____+ 5
1109_____1122_____+13
1115_____1068_____(-47)
1105_____1068_____(-37)
1115_____1066_____(-49)
1102_____1047_____(-55)
1110_____1054_____(-56)
1105_____1055_____(-50)
1089_____1035_____(-54)

http://img215.imageshack.us/img215/6386/1stgroup1222008hx7.jpg

No clue why the differences but we recorded both

We had Loaded 168 Hornady 168 BTHP over 8.0 gr of clays
with CCI #250 Magnum primers 2.800 OAL in Rem. cases NO Crimp
this time we first tilted up the barrel before shooting.

Ran two chrono's in Tandem
1st_______2nd
Chrony ... Chrony ___Dif
845.0_____865.6 ___+20.6
1088_____1045_____(-43)
1099_____1045_____(-54)
1106_____1115_____+ 9
1124_____1141_____+17
1115_____1132_____+17
1120_____1133_____+13
1104_____1116_____+12
1117_____1059_____(-58 )
http://img220.imageshack.us/img220/8991/2ndgroup12208rf2.jpg

Next nine where keeping the barrel level and loaded thru ejection port to keep powder spread out. Same Load 168 Hornady 168 BTHP over 8.0 gr of clays with CCI #250 Magnum primers 2.800 OAL in Rem. cases NO Crimp.

Ran two chrono's in Tandem
1st_______2nd
Chrony ... Chrony ___Dif
1166_____1188_____+22
1133_____1155_____+22
1129_____1153_____+24
1133_____1156_____+23
1132_____1153_____+21
1127_____1155_____+28
1135_____1158_____+23
1124_____1146_____+22
1135_____1162_____+27

http://img215.imageshack.us/img215/1313/3rdgroup12208yl1.jpg

Loaded 168 Hornady 168 BTHP over 8.0 gr of clays
with CCIi #34 primers 2.800 OAL in Rem. cases NO Crimp
Same load as first batch but with Moly coating on the bullets

Ran two chrono's in Tandem
1st_______2nd
Chrony ... Chrony ___Dif
1032_____1050_____+18
1117_____1135_____+18
1133_____1150_____+17
1112_____1127_____+15
1123_____1140_____+17
1111_____1128_____+17
1103_____1110_____+ 7
1116_____1129_____+11
1110_____1092_____(-18 )

http://img220.imageshack.us/img220/1931/4thgroup1222008ag7.jpg

[pug]

As far as the variation in two chronys there is probably a slight difference in frequency between the two master clock signals that drive the counter logic. If you could tie power and master clock signals from one chrony to the other there would probably be little difference in readings and it would make a good proof system. Just thought I would throw that in :smile:.

[Artful]

Went up to northern Arizona today 5800 elevation - brisk 38-40 degree's in breezy conditions wtih slightly overcast skys. I shot 10 rounds thru the 21 inch barreled FAL with AAC Cyclone on it. Testing for accuracy at greater distance than last test, 100 paces today well call it 90 yards to be conservative. :wink:
http://img140.imageshack.us/img140/8279/dsc05634ue7.jpg

Lowered powder charge by .1 to 7.9 grains of Clays, using same
168 gn Hornady BTHP with CCI 250 primer.

First 5 shots
http://img152.imageshack.us/img152/86/dsc05631it3.jpg

Second 5 shots
http://img155.imageshack.us/img155/8121/dsc05632cp1.jpg

Consistant Velocities but still a little fast.
http://img140.imageshack.us/img140/1544/dsc05641ro5.jpg

[Foxfire]

Artful,

Are you still using reduced capacity cases?
Or have you gone back to using stock cases?

TIA, Foxfire

[Artful]

Back to stock cases as both the epoxy and the thermal polymer failed to hold up inside and broke up sending chunks down the bore into the suppressor.

If you want to use reduced capacity cases I'd suggest you either look at the aluminum ones from Canada or the brass ones from Europe but either way it's not cheap - I'm going back over my results trying to find my errors as at this point I should have found what I was looking for but may have to rethink my parameters for what I want out of my load. :o

[Foxfire]

Find out your errors???....
I thought you had a very good load (7.9 clays), that is why I was asking about the cases.
What are you trying to get out of it?

Fox

[Artful]

Foxfire 7.9 of clays isn't a bad load it just isn't always subsonic out of my gun
- I need a load that is always quiet and accurate - last test I did which I didn't really put out was loaded with clays in lessor amounts

7.9 gave
1149
1140
1168
1192
1189
1186
1134
1147

7.8 gave
1018
1129
1126
1129
1139
1153
1240
and one missed one of the screens?

7.7
971.8
1120
1115
1126
1149
1152
1127
1152

still too fast :cool: and I don't want to go below 7.7 due to volume concerns.

Now keep in mind these are thru a 21" barrel so any of these may work very well in your barrel. You just have to try it and see.

[mosigdude]

Only thinking out loud here, and I have never tried this, there may be reasons not to... but that's why I'm replying, maybe someone already has.

Some talked about reducing the case capacity by filling with epoxy or purchasing cases that had been specially manufactured to do so. The problem with the epoxy or modeling plastic seems to be a lack of consistency (air bubbles and such) and the frailty of the filler (i.e. pieces breaking off and getting stuck in the suppressor) The problem with the manufactured cases seems to be availability and expense.

Would it be possible to weigh a small quantity of lead shot, melt it in the case, allow it to set, the re-drill the flash hole to the desired diameter, standard or enlarged. It seems that the lead would be more malleable than most epoxies and by weighing it, the case capacity could be reduced semi-scientifically.

The potential problem I see in the beginning is having to drill the flash hole smaller than the primer and having to use a special decapping pin to remove spent primers. Obviously, only neck sizing would be possible with the lead filler taking up the lower portions of the case.

It would be nice to be able to make 308 cases with similar capacities as the 300 Whisper, this would make load development at least a little easier.

If no one else has tried this, I may give it a run, I really have no need for a subsonic 308 since I have the whisper, and suppressors are illegal in MO anyway but curiosity has now gotten the better of me. If you have, post up with your results.

[mosigdude]

Ok, after posting that, I couldn't take the suspense. In the last 10 minutes, I made 5 reduced capacity 308 Cases. I changed direction just a bit, here's what I did:

I filled one 308 case full with #9 shot (smaller would be better to reduce the air space between pellets, but #9 was the smallest I had) I then poured the shot out of the 308 case into a 300 whisper case. The remaining shot that did not fit was the approximate difference in volume between the two cases. I weighed the difference and it was approximately 220 grains of shot.

I then drilled the flash hole of the 308 cases to 1/8 (.125) inch. I noticed that a 10-penny finishing nail was nearly the same size as this hole.
I lightly oiled several of these nails and inserted then into the flash hole with the head in the primer pocket. I then weighed and placed 220 grains of lead shot in each case.

I used a pair of vice grips to snugly hold the portion of the nail that protruded from the neck of the case. I held the nail centered in the mouth and snug against the primer hole, snug enough to form a seal. I then used a standard propane torch to heat the base of the case until the lead melted (less than a minute each)

I then let the cases cool naturally (instead of quenching, which would cause them to be brittle) and lightly tapped out the nails. (if you do this, make sure the sharp portion of the nail isn't mashed out larger than the shaft before you insert it, otherwise it will get stuck as you tap it out). This eliminated the need to re-drill the flash hole.

The way it looks:
Each case appears to have the same volume. The flash hole appears as uniform as can be expected, it isn't "machine" accurate, but appears as good as any factory case. I'm guessing and hoping that the taper of the case will hold the lead "plug" in place firmly, or at least solid enough to prevent powder from getting between the case head and the plug. Finally, the case capacity is approximately the same as the 300 Whisper, giving me a good idea on approximate start loads.

I think I'll grind the point off of one of the same nails and use it as a manual decapping rod, then disassemble my 308 sizing die to size only the outer dimensions of the case first, then reinsert the expander only deep enough to pass through the neck for reloading. This should allow me to load without buying a neck-sizer only (only since I don't currently have one).

No doubt, if this works, the cases will degrade faster than those of solid brass or aluminum since the lead is much softer, but I'm hoping I can get somewhere between 5 and 10 loadings each before much degradation is noticed.

I'll keep posting after I get some loads tested... chrono reports will be slower to come since I shot the chrono while testing whisper loads a few weeks ago (read "Anyone had this problem" if you're curious).

[mosigdude]

Update:

I loaded 5 rounds of only one load, more to evaluate case performance than anything else. I loaded 9.0 grains of H110 under a SMK 168 with a federal 210 Primer at an OAL of 2.800.

First, the 220 grains of lead does not, as I had previously thought, fill the case to allow 300 Whisper capacity, it is still much larger. I was not taking the volume of the flash hole into account.

All 5 rounds were fired from a Remington 700 Tactical with a 20" 1/10 twist barrel. This rifle is usually very capable of 1/4" CTC groups without much effort.

All 5 rounds were definitely subsonic, although, as stated above, my chrono is down so I can't comment on actual velocities.

in 2 of the 5 rounds, the lead broke free of the case and moved to the front of the case, although nothing appears amiss except for this and it did not appear to come forward with enough velocity to deform the case. There is no evidence of fragmentation of the lead that I added to the case and it still appears intact, although moved.
None of the cases showed any indication of excessive pressure.

Accuracy seemed unaffected by the 2 rounds in which the lead separated and all 5 rounds formed a cumulative group slightly larger than 1/2" CTC.

If I go forward with this idea, I will probably add more lead to reduce case capacity further. My first thought was to reduce the diameter of the flash hole by NOT drilling the flash hole larger and then using a smaller piece of wire to form the hole in the lead, however I am reluctant to do this for fear of inconsistent ignition since the entire powder charge is nearer the front of the case and so far away from the primer. Instead, I may leave all as is with the exception of adding more lead to further reduce case capacity.

I will also have to consider the cases disposable or at a minimum re-melt the lead inside each as I can not guarantee to reposition the lead filler exactly the same as it had been before separation in those cases that do separate.

I'll post more as this project progresses.

[Artful]

Interesting - if you want it to afix firmly you may want to brush the inside of the case and flux as well as changing from pure lead to 50/50 tin/lead mix so fix it better. As personal problems are keeping from shooting much, I anxiously await further reports.:grin:

[mosigdude]

Today was the last of my days off, so I followed through with my other plan and somewhat, the suggestion of Artful. This time, I used a flux and brushed the inside of the otherwise new RP cases. I had any a small amount of tin so I mixed 1000 grains of tin with 3000 grains of lead and fluxed the mixture. Then to get as close as possible to exact amounts, I made a blank mold that resembled a thick wire (just drilled with a 1/8 drill to make the mold) and cut each flush with the top of the mold. I then weighed out 220 grains again, trimming as necessary, which this time was more volume and repeated the melting process the same as before.

Same as before, the lead/tin mix separated from the case in 6/10 of the shots but group size was still good at approximately 1/2". I still do not have the chrono to measure velocities but I'm teetering back and forth as some are obviously going supersonic while others are not, I'm not sure about how consistent the velocities are but they must not have a terrible spread as I see no noticeable vertical stringing.

Also a second experiment:
I've had pretty good luck using "Power Pistol" powder in other subsonics, I thought I'd give it a try with the 308.

Again, I have almost no reference to begin with so I started at what I thought would be a mid-level charge of 8.0 grains, otherwise, same load as above, 168 SMK, RP Brass, Fed 210 Primer, 2.800 OAL. This charge fills very little of the case so I suspected that it would be very sensitive to positional changes. I opted to fill the case with 3.5 grains of loosely-packed cotton ball material. My initial thought was that this may burn with the powder and not exit the barrel. Again, I loaded only one loading with the idea of further testing if the prelim looked even hopeful.

At the range:
EXCELLENT accuracy out of the Rem 700 20" BBL Tactical 1/10 twist barrel. The group, including a cold bore shot was one ragged hole, probably in the neighborhood of ¼” CTC. I did not have comparison between subsonic and supersonic and this powder sounds much different that the H110 so I'm not sure which side of the line I was on. My guess is that this was slightly over subsonic as a comparable load in my whisper would be/has been supersonic with a 200 SMK down to 7.0 grains where it averages in the 1070 FPS range. The 308 Obviously has a larger case capacity but I think this powder burns fast enough that everything is mostly stable by the time it exits the barrel, I don't know, I could be wrong.
Although this was good news in the accuracy department, it was a no-go for the suppressor crowd, or at least those that can't be disassembled for occasional cleaning. The cotton ball does not burn up in the barrel and exits the muzzle as a fine spray that appears similar to floating cob-web, not really an excessive volume, but it’s there all the same. There really isn't much more visual effect than a little bit of smoke, but it is obvious that it isn't completely burning up. Maybe gun cotton or the puff-stuff that were talked about earlier in this thread could be substituted with better results. On the plus-side, Power Pistol burns very clean if you get at least an average crimp on the case, there was no noticeable residue in the barrel and the insides of the fired cases were still very clean. No signs of excessive pressure or indications of any other problems. Maybe next week I'll try a run without the filler to see how position changes velocities. I should have my chrono repair parts in by then. Anyone else who tries any of this, or variations, post up... I've now got another itch that needs to be scratched (I knew I shouldn't have read this thread when I saw it!).

[Scoop]

Here's a .308 load for all you 12-twisters out there. I have had excellent luck with the Berry's 150 Plated FN (http://www.berrysmfg.com/categories/86-0.php) bullets in my 12-twist Remmy SPS Tactical. The load I settled on is 6.8 gr of Titegroup (case-position insensitive) in LC89 Match brass (weighed to 1 grain extreme spread, but no other match case preps) lit by a Fed 215M primer. COL is 2.635 which keeps the bullets about 35 thous off the lands. I put a light crimp on with a Lee FCD die. This load averages 1020 fps in my rifle with SWR Omega attached. It feeds reliably, is stable and is consistently MOA or better. Oh, and the bullets are CHEAP to boot :grin:

Standard disclaimer: Use at your own risk. Start higher and work down.

[Artful]

Although this was good news in the accuracy department, it was a no-go for the suppressor crowd, or at least those that can't be disassembled for occasional cleaning. The cotton ball does not burn up in the barrel and exits the muzzle as a fine spray that appears similar to floating cob-web, not really an excessive volume, but it’s there all the same. There really isn't much more visual effect than a little bit of smoke, but it is obvious that it isn't completely burning up. Maybe gun cotton or the puff-stuff that were talked about earlier in this thread could be substituted with better results. On the plus-side, Power Pistol burns very clean if you get at least an average crimp on the case, there was no noticeable residue in the barrel and the insides of the fired cases were still very clean. No signs of excessive pressure or indications of any other problems. Maybe next week I'll try a run without the filler to see how position changes velocities. I should have my chrono repair parts in by then. Anyone else who tries any of this, or variations, post up... I've now got another itch that needs to be scratched (I knew I shouldn't have read this thread when I saw it!).

Very good to know - I think the trick will be to add more lead to reduce volume further - one of these days when I can I'll come back to this with lead filler. Have you thought about a bulkier powder like RedDot?

[mosigdude]

I played with red dot in the whisper quite a bit and had very inconsistent results. I seemed to have a LOT of really slow( -300 fps or more) cold bore shots and a huge deviation in velocities from shot to shot thereafter. There may be a way to make it work, I didn't try it in the 308 loads. I would be thrilled if I could find a good red dot load, however, since I have a stupid-huge personal stash of the stuff left over from when I was loadng shotgun.

[mosigdude]

Scoop,
Good info! I'm out of new 308 cases right now and I usually start with new ones for load development so I haven't tried the titegroup in 308 yet. I overlooked it completely as an option in the beginning since it has such a fast burn rate but your post made me re-think this.
Since I was out of new 308, I picked up a can of titegroup and worked up a sub load for the 5.56 AR. I loaded 3.2 grains of Titegroup in a RP .223 case with a CCI standard small-rifle primer, standard flash hole, and a 60 gr. Hornady V-max to a COL of 2.235". The only case work I did was trimming and used no filler over the powder.
I still don't have my chrono repair parts so I couldn't check velocity, but they are definitely subsonic and very accurate at 35 yards (It was very rainy today and I couldn't go to the long range) with one ragged hole, no stringing, and no pressure signs. I only fired 10 rounds but they seem to be very clean as well. Obviously they don't cycle the AR, but I was just looking for a low-noise pest-control round anyway. Thanks for sharing the find!
I'll be playing with titegroup in 308 next, I can't wait to see how it works in my rig with 1/10 twist and a little heavier bullets. This could be the answer we've been looking for (well, me for only a week or so, but some for longer)
Thanks again, Ill post results as I get them!

[Scoop]

Scoop,
Good info! I'm out of new 308 cases right now and I usually start with new ones for load development so I haven't tried the titegroup in 308 yet. I overlooked it completely as an option in the beginning since it has such a fast burn rate but your post made me re-think this.
Since I was out of new 308, I picked up a can of titegroup and worked up a sub load for the 5.56 AR. I loaded 3.2 grains of Titegroup in a RP .223 case with a CCI standard small-rifle primer, standard flash hole, and a 60 gr. Hornady V-max to a COL of 2.235". The only case work I did was trimming and used no filler over the powder.
I still don't have my chrono repair parts so I couldn't check velocity, but they are definitely subsonic and very accurate at 35 yards (It was very rainy today and I couldn't go to the long range) with one ragged hole, no stringing, and no pressure signs. I only fired 10 rounds but they seem to be very clean as well. Obviously they don't cycle the AR, but I was just looking for a low-noise pest-control round anyway. Thanks for sharing the find!
I'll be playing with titegroup in 308 next, I can't wait to see how it works in my rig with 1/10 twist and a little heavier bullets. This could be the answer we've been looking for (well, me for only a week or so, but some for longer)
Thanks again, Ill post results as I get them!

Hope it works out well for you. Titegroup is definitely the best of the powders I've tried for the sub loads in .308

[mosigdude]

Ok, I finally got my chrono up and running again and had a chance to run out to the range. I've abandoned the altered cases for the time being so I have no new follow-up on that. I did, however, get a chance to play some with the Titegroup loads. Two parts of this testing were very promising, the other was somewhat perplexing. First, the load info:
6.8 gr (20.9% case capacity) - 8.0 gr (24.5% case capacity) of Titegroup loaded in 0.2 gr. increments in an unaltered standard RP 308 case, Fed 210 LR Primer, 168 gr. Sierra Matchking, 2.800 OAL. The rifle is the same as other tests I have done, Remington 700 Tactical, 1/10 Twist, 20" BBL.

Velocities ranged from 1078 ( 8.0 gr.) - 883 (6.8gr) FPS. Extreme spreads per loading were VERY low and averaged around 12 FPS. Accuracy was excellent at MOA or less on each load... No pressure signs in any fired cases. In other words, Titegroup is the wonder-powder that I've been looking for in this caliber, it does not seem to be at all sensitive to position, even with less than 1/4 of the case filled. If this was the end of the story, I'd make this post and resign from this thread forever... but of course, it never really works that way.

Here's the mystery...

I have shot similar loads, same case/projectile specs (2.800 OAL, 168 Sierra Matchking, RP Case, etc.) I have not even changed my loading die settings (although I verify at the beginning of each loading session) since my last test of this bullet/rifle combo. The only difference in earlier loads was a diff type of powder. Even though they lacked the consistency of this load, I have shot individual rounds that have clocked velocities in this same range. Until today, none have key-holed. Almost every round today showed some evidence of key-holing. None of them impacted completely sideways, but I can see marks from the rifling on the target from several of the hits.

Has anyone else had this happen or have any ideas? Same bullet at the same velocities but with two different powders, one key-holes, the other doesn't?!? I'm stumped.

The obvious solution in this particular gun is to change bullets, either design or a lighter weight. I'm just curious what could cause this.

Until next time...

[Scoop]

Here's the mystery...

I have shot similar loads, same case/projectile specs (2.800 OAL, 168 Sierra Matchking, RP Case, etc.) I have not even changed my loading die settings (although I verify at the beginning of each loading session) since my last test of this bullet/rifle combo. The only difference in earlier loads was a diff type of powder. Even though they lacked the consistency of this load, I have shot individual rounds that have clocked velocities in this same range. Until today, none have key-holed. Almost every round today showed some evidence of key-holing. None of them impacted completely sideways, but I can see marks from the rifling on the target from several of the hits.

Has anyone else had this happen or have any ideas? Same bullet at the same velocities but with two different powders, one key-holes, the other doesn't?!? I'm stumped.

The obvious solution in this particular gun is to change bullets, either design or a lighter weight. I'm just curious what could cause this.

Until next time...

The problem is the 168 SMK's. They tend not to fly very well at subsonic velocities. Also, changes in environmental conditions can wreak havoc on bullets that were just barely stable to begin with. Are you sure your Remmy is a 10-twist? I've never had the 168's to not yaw in flight from a stock Remmy (they are usually 12-twist). They are just not a good bullet for subsonic loads. Makes you wonder why Hodgdon has them listed in the only two subsonic .308 loads on their website. You want the shortest bullet you can load in the weight class you're looking for. Stick with round nose or flat nose stuff. They work better simply because they're shorter.

[Artful]

Or try loading the 168's backward. Dr Dater (Gemtech) is against using boattails in subsonic loadings for suppressors due to what your are experiencing.

[mosigdude]

Yes, I was sure that I had a 1/10 twist... that is, until I checked it today... it is most definitely a 1/12!?! Go figure! I was positive that it was a 1/10 and I have no idea where I got that info, obviously from a bad source, probably myself.

I'm going to play with some stubby 150's and see how that works out. As I said in the beginning of this, I really have no actual need for this load since supressors are banned in MO, but still it's fun to play with the loadings, I guess I just got bored with the usual load work-ups. Anyhow, I'm not sure if there is anything out there, but I'm going to see if I can find a 150 FP or HP with a little lead exposed to get a little expansion started at sub velocities. I'm definitely going to continue to work with the Titegroup powder, that stuff is amazing in its lack of positional sensitivity! I'll post updates as I have them.

Thanks to Scoop and Artful for the added info!

[Scoop]

Yes, I was sure that I had a 1/10 twist... that is, until I checked it today... it is most definitely a 1/12!?! Go figure! I was positive that it was a 1/10 and I have no idea where I got that info, obviously from a bad source, probably myself.

I'm going to play with some stubby 150's and see how that works out.

Anyhow, I'm not sure if there is anything out there, but I'm going to see if I can find a 150 FP or HP with a little lead exposed to get a little expansion started at sub velocities.

Just pick up some of those Berry's 150 gr plated bullets I talked about in post #86 of this thread. Load 'em up and enjoy. They work well in the 12-twist barrels and they are cheap.

Pretty sure you're not gonna find a rifle bullet that will even begin to expand at 1000 fps. You'd have to go to specialty stuff to get any kind of performance at those velocities. Wonder if Berry's or Ranier would consider making a run of their plated stuff with a hollowpoint profile and a super soft alloy core? Might have to call and see.

[mosigdude]

I'll definitely give them a try, I'd be interested in a soft lead HP version of that as well. There seems to be a lot of interest in this forum in a 30 cal rifle bullet that will expand at these velocities. I'd guess if someone made a plated HP in the 150-165 gr range and another in the 200-220 gr range they'd have the market cornered and this should work fairly well for the full range of rifling twists. Maybe a couple phone calls wouldn't hurt.

In the mean time, I'm going to start brainstorming on constructing some kind of punch/swage to convert a few of those Berry's Plated 150's to a HP configuration with a bit of consistency... maybe something I can turn out on the lathe that will fit in a standard reloading press, how hard can it be?

[cearick]

I used 8 grs of Trailboss topped of with a 168 gr matchking. Works great out of a 20in 700.

[mosigdude]

I sent a message to Berry's about the possibility of producing a plated HP in the 150 gr range and another in the 200-220 gr. range. It looks like there may be some hope for the idea from his response. See details in the ammo section of this forum.

And it looks like MO is going to legalize supressors effective Aug. 28th. Of course all the federal requirements will still apply, but MO will no longer specifically prohibit them, so I'm ready to get this figured out!

[oneshot]

It is interesting to see that others have experimented with lead as a filler. My approach was slightly different. I filled the case with molten lead up to the base of neck (using a toothpick to block the flashhole), then drilled a 6mm hole thru to the flashhole. Finally, use a 7.5mm drill to "even out" all the shells, and make room for bullet seating. In effect, you get an "even" cavity from primer to bullet base, and the lead stays put :nanabang: , held in by the shoulder!

[GlockandRoll]

I used 8 grs of Trailboss topped of with a 168 gr matchking. Works great out of a 20in 700.

I would have assumed it would be a problem due to the length of the bullet...
what's the rate of twist, and what velocity where you pushing?

[Artful]

David Saylors of Liberty Suppressors made an experimental CNC machined 308 reduced capacity case.

Here is the youtube of the David shooting the suppressed rounds.... 10 grains of TrailBoss

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KnrK9qC2VUc

http://www.libertycans.net/sitebuilder/images/308rc2-600x450.jpg

http://www.libertycans.net/sitebuilder/images/308rc4-600x450.jpg

http://www.libertycans.net/sitebuilder/images/308RC1-600x450.jpg

David was nice enough to send me the cases for a test.

Nice fall day in Arizona about 70 degrees - not much breeze.

Decided to test with some nice 147 FMJ BT with Cannalure .308 and TRAILBOSS powder out my FAL set to single shot Grenade setting on the gas position. This is the same Rifle as used with Cyclone on previous tests.

As there are only these 3 orginal cases I decided to take my reloading to the field so purchased some little glass vials to preload with measured bits of TRAILBOSS powder.

I had found the factory RCBS and Redding neck sizer worked the brass too much so am using Lee Collet neck sizer die.

As David had already tried 10 grains with his loading and it filled the case to capacity and was a compressed loading. I discovered that 8.5 grains was to the base of the bullet and started there.

Used CCI 250 magnum primers
Velocity figures
1160 - 1009 - 1128
Target 1
http://img56.imageshack.us/img56/8598/t1trailbosseighthalfbb0.jpg
These are all shot around 50 yards

Next loaded same cases with 8.0 TrailBoss same CCI 250 primers
1001- 1176 - 1174
Target 2
http://img56.imageshack.us/img56/4964/t2trailbosseightevenok5.jpg


Next loading 7.5 grains TrailBoss same CCI 250 primers
990 - 1102 - 1079

Tried it again with 7.5 grain TrailBoss same CCI 250 primers
1089 - 1073 - 1055
Target 3
http://img56.imageshack.us/img56/1513/t3trailbosssevenhalfccize8.jpg

Took my last premeasured 7.5 grain TrailBoss but used CCI 300 Large Pistol primers
1089 - 1031 - 1056
Target 4
http://img56.imageshack.us/img56/8859/t4trailbosssevenhalfcciss7.jpg
Yep, three bullets into 2 holes with a called flyer
- I will exlore this load more later... :D

Had my next loading of 7.0 grains of Trail boss CCI 300 primers
957.6 - 1040 - 1032

Reloaded again all the same
980.4 - 910.6 - 1006

Took my last three 7.0 grain premeasured and change to CCI 250 Large Rilfe magnums 1030 - 1001- 1010
Yes I will try some more of this load as well. :D
Target 5
http://img56.imageshack.us/img56/5741/t5trailvosssevenevencn0.jpg

This was the 9th loading of these brass cases - no neck splits or other problems notices with the cases at this time.

On thing that was noticed, was there enough gas blow around on the cases caused me to have to clean the chamber (dry brush) on the FAL or it would fail to go all the way into battery until cleaned.

So it was taken to cleaning after every 3rd shot just to keep from having problems and as there are only 3 cases it was a natural break in the action to do it.

VERY PLEASED with these cases so far.

[Artful]

Yesterday 10/31/2008 (Happy Halloween) went out in the morning
to try reloading the same 3 Liberty Suppressor Reduced Capaity Cases
This will be the 10th thru the 17th reloading - still no signs of wear using the Lee Neck Sizing Collet die.

All shot at 50 yards

7.1 one grains of Trailboss over cci 350 magum primer with 147 grn BT FMG Velocity (first shot cold bore)
Velocity 845.4 - 1025 - 894.6
Session 2 Target 1
http://img134.imageshack.us/img134/9105/s2t1ju9.th.jpg (http://img134.imageshack.us/my.php?image=s2t1ju9.jpg)

Reload with the same load as above
Velocity 991.5 - 890.3 - 772.9
http://img134.imageshack.us/img134/2889/s2t2qd4.th.jpg (http://img134.imageshack.us/my.php?image=s2t2qd4.jpg)

not happy with the velocity jumped up the powder charge
7.4 grains of Trailboss with CCI 350 magnum primer with 147 BT FMG
Velocity 897.7 - 957.5 - 1055
http://img134.imageshack.us/img134/774/s2t3mu8.th.jpg (http://img134.imageshack.us/my.php?image=s2t3mu8.jpg)

Bumped it another tenth of a grain to 7.5 grains
Velocity 987.5 - 1103 - 1021
http://img134.imageshack.us/img134/243/s2t4nj0.th.jpg (http://img134.imageshack.us/my.php?image=s2t4nj0.jpg)

Bumped it again 7.6 grain TrailBoss with same 147 grain FMG BT
Velocity 1054 - 1065 -1042
http://img134.imageshack.us/img134/5268/s2t5iq7.th.jpg (http://img134.imageshack.us/my.php?image=s2t5iq7.jpg)

Once more with 7.6 grains Trailboss and 147 gr FMG BT
Velocity 1014 - 1098 - 820.4
http://img134.imageshack.us/img134/395/s2t6en1.th.jpg (http://img134.imageshack.us/my.php?image=s2t6en1.jpg)

Then decided to try 170 RN Remington SPCL over 7.6 grains of TRAILBOSS - thinking heavier bullet would slow down a little but may make the velocity a little steadier - WRONG
Velocity 499.6 - 703.6 - 360.9
http://img134.imageshack.us/img134/8123/s2t7vc7.th.jpg (http://img134.imageshack.us/my.php?image=s2t7vc7.jpg)
Note only one of three bullets fired reach the target paper!

As Jerry my Shooting partner pointed out
- last time we had run an oily snake between sessions and this time I hadn't.
The 30-30 bullets had more than triple the amount of bearing surface.

Let that be a lesson to me.

And remember to start high and work down with subsonic loading.

Until the next test

[youssefa]

____________________

[Artful]

____________________

Sorry :frown: I didn't get back in time for your question. would you care to repeat it?

[22-250Rino]

Hey there new to this site but thought I would throw this out there. The load I just finished for My savage LE1 seems to be one of the better ones I've seen.

130gr speer HP
6gr. titegroup
C.O.L. 2.64
3 shot string of 1067,1067,1082
3shot group .175 c to c at 50yd

[Artful]

Hey there new to this site but thought I would throw this out there. The load I just finished for My savage LE1 seems to be one of the better ones I've seen.

130gr speer HP
6gr. titegroup
C.O.L. 2.64
3 shot string of 1067,1067,1082
3shot group .175 c to c at 50yd

looks like it's very consistant :cool:

[clay_breaker]

Is David going to make a run the reduced cap brass? I went to their website
and it is out.

[Artful]

Is David going to make a run the reduced cap brass? I went to their website
and it is out.

I got 20 from him a month or more ago @ $4 each - he said he had an offer to buy the CNC program and materials from another company so he may have sold the project to them. I'd give a call and talk to him about it.

[xat130]

Bumping this thread.

New to QB but not shooting and reloading.

Awesome info in this thread and forum. Any updates would be great!

Thanks!

[Artful]

What kind of update you looking for?

I'm still happy with the reduced brass cases I got from Liberty.

The original cases still going strong - was able to shoot uphill, downhill, from sling or loaded into ejection port without noticable change in velocity. Trailboss is filling up the cases nicely. Only issue is gas flow around the cases upon firing but just clean after every fifth firing and good to go.

[xat130]

Thanks. I'll check with LS to see if they have those cases available.

Great info in this thread!!

[xat130]

Looks like they are not making them anymore. She said it was not cost effective.

[dick]

JF had it right on the first post 5744 or 4759 is were it is at. I prefer the
225 gr outlaw over 12 gr of 4759 and a large rifle magnum primer. Works great out of 20" 1/10 and 1/11.25 twist Armalite and DPMS with shut off gas
systems. SUB MOA easly attainable. With an open gas system I have tried 4759, 5744, 1680, 2015, TAC, 2015, trying to cycle the rifle. I was able to easly eject the spent case but would not pick up the next. I think this would be achievable in a carbine length gas system AR-10 type platform. I have done the mentioned with a .310 225 gr outlaw with 12gr 5744 and FED LARGE RIFLE MAG primer 7.62 x 39 WIN case, SUB-SONIC, cycles 16" carbine 7.62 x 39 Modle1sales upper unsuppressed.:nanabang:

[Artful]

Looks like they are not making them anymore. She said it was not cost effective.

Shame, I llike them - I guess if I was still looking to play I would look into the filling with hot lead and reboring the powder chamber to the spec's I wanted. Reduced capcity cases in 308 are the best solution.

[rdwehus47]

hey been reading the forum

i have used to great results, trailboss powder for subsonic 308 loads.

i currently used win 748 for the 150g horn sst projectiles. (47g of 748)
when i put trailboss in my dillion powder measure, didnt change the setting from the win 748 and tried a charge, it measured 14.6g. At that point i was ok with the case volume.

Started testing 10g 11g 12g 13g loads

with my YHM can, the 10g with 168g btsps works great - prints 4 holes at 50 yards... no issues what so ever.


when i tried the 180g btsp projectiles however, they where keyholes with 10g of trailboss..

i havent tried going up powder or down to 8gs, any input?

the trailboss powder looks like dounuts...

just wanted to pass this a long...

thanks

Robert:uzi2:

[HUNTER2]

You will be a lot safer trying the different bullets WITHOUT the suppressor. Until you get the speed you desire. What twist are you using? Maybe not fast enough for the longer bullets, or not fast enough yet. Nearly ruined a good suppressor with some long bullets going too slow. Those things are precious!

[atrdriver1]

Rifle: DPMS LR308 16” 10 twist
Silencer: HTG M30
Elevation: 5500ft

The load I have settled on is:

9.9 gr Trail Boss with a 175gr Sierra Match King projectile.
Brass: Winchester with flash hole drilled out to 9/64”
Primer: Rem magnum

This gives me appx. 1000fps which keeps me sub sonic all the way down to 0 degrees F.

I started out using Win 231 because I have a bunch of it for my 45acp loads. I found that it was not consistent. The velocity would climb as the barrel warmed up as much as 200fps. Accuracy was very poor as a result.

Trail Boss is MUCH better. The temperature of the barrel seems to make no difference on the velocity. My typical extreme spread is about 60fps with a standard deviation of about 25.

On my most recent trip to the range, I shot 4 groups of 5rds each. The average for all four groups was .74moa. Surprisingly, this same rifle typically shoots 1.25moa with full power match grade ammo.

I did try this same load in brass with standard flash holes and the extreme spread rose a little to 80fps, but that was only one shot string of 10rds, so it is not conclusive by any means.

2 other projectiles I have tried in this barrel and that stabilized just fine were the 178gr AMAX and the 200gr Lapua sub sonic.

I experimented with loading the bullets backwards to explore the possibility of using even heavier projectiles, but they would not feed from the magazine.

[hopps]

atr, does your dpms cycle with that load? Does it eject but not pick up? I am curious because I am trying to decide if I should go carbine or pistol length gas with the .308 I am building and want to do some subsonic stuff with...

[thehouseproduct]

I am also curious about this. I have a LR308B with an 18" barrel with a carbine gas length system. I think I could probably get subsonic easier with the shorter gas system.

[Romeyo]

Unfortunatly I can't really add something helpful to that thread so far, but I'll give the european made reduced capacity brass a try in the near future and will share results.

What I'm interested in is the fact that many shooters recommend loading long boat tail bullets base-forward in subsonic catridges.
Has anybody maybe did a BC comparing of this setup? I think it would be really interesting since at subsonic velocities base drag comes more into account and tip shape less because it hasn't to deal with supersonic shock waves.
Although I wouldn't expect them to perform better base forward, but maybe near to equal?

Also, what's about accuracy? I read that long boat tail bullets (and a base-forward scenar/SMK/... got a heck of a BT then...) tend to get destabilized by muzzle blast? But that's maybe not that of an issue since longer barrels and fast burning powder don't generate much pressure at the muzzle...

What do you think?

[Artful]

I am also curious about this. I have a LR308B with an 18" barrel with a carbine gas length system. I think I could probably get subsonic easier with the shorter gas system.

Well the gas will bleed off the bore starting sooner but I don't think it will impact the speed that much - it will give more pressure to try and cycle the action but I never found a load that cycled by FAL repeatedly in all conditions. I found that with parially filled regular cases I had trouble unless you loaded in the same manner and shot at the same attitutude (angle) which is why I pestered David at Liberty to make the batch of reduced capacity cases - they work find for shooting level, uphill or downhill as the load density is almost 100% with trailboss.

[michael30.06]

Since we are reducing the powder charge and therefore the pressure inside the case. Do we have to use something quite as problematic as hot lead or as easy to shatter as epoxy? What about something with a bit of flexibility, I have seen projectiles made from hot glue, what about using hot melt glue to fill a case then drill out new case dimentions from that?
I'm going to try both the molten lead and the hot glue to make a reduced capacity case. If it works I will pass on all the details if not, I'll go back to the drawing board. :wink:

[michael30.06]

Got my own reply. TOO SOFT. Too flexible, oh well never mind. :smile:
So many jobs are best done with a lathe make what you need complete from scratch, maybe that is the way to go new case turned from solid brass, then cut any chamber size I need. But that is why we do this for enjoyment rather than get paid for it.

[Artful]

did you try the lead? did you use pure lead or an alloy?

[michael30.06]

I have tried the lead, it was wheel weight lead that I had on hand. A Pain to drill very prone to grab and change the angle of the drill bit. 6 out of 10 cases survived. Then I ran into a cash flow problem a 6.5mm swedish mauser that I had to have, along with the Leed loader, no drill scope mount Long eye relief scope and a thumbhole stock for a small ring mauser that took a few days of inletting to fit. I will be back on track and on schedule by christmas 2010, maybe. Had an idea about mini power heads on a compound bow.

[Artful]

those 6.5 swedes are slick - and my friends seem to be almost like electric shock on deer, you should like it. :grin:

[atrdriver1]

I have my LR-308 functioning very reliably with sub-sonic ammo fed from a mag after making some serious modifications.

***CAUTION***

These mods can be dangerous with full power ammo.

First I started by drilling out my gas port on the barrel. After stepping it up all the way to the same diameter as the ID of the gas tube (no point in going any larger than that), it was still short stroking.

I then started cliping coils off of the recoil spring. After clipping NINE coils off it ran fine with the following sub sonic load.

11.1 gr. Trail Boss
Winchester brass with standard flash hole
Fed 210 large rifle primer
190 gr SMK projectile at 1025fps

This load also shoots sub MOA in my rifle.

I am using a 3 position adjustable gas block so I can switch back to a VERY small gas port and still shoot full power ammo if I need to in a pinch. I have tested a couple of mags of full power ammo and it functions, but the BCG hits the end of the extension tube MIGHTY HARD. I have an extra full length recoil spring I can put in for running standard ammo.

I am pretty sure that if I accidentally left the gas block on the large port and fired standard ammo it would send the BCG through my shoulder.

I have 4 LR-308's, so I am able to leave this one as a dedicated sub-sonic / night vision platform.

If you want to switch back and forth between subs and standards I consider the two things below mandatory.

--Adjustable gas block.
--extra recoil spring.

Am I kinda crazy? Probably.
Am I very pleased with how this project has worked out? ABSOLUTELY!

I am using the Paladin Machine adjustable gas block, but I do not recommend it. It carbons up and then you can't move it. If you use pliers to rotate it, it still doesn't help because the ports get so packed with carbon that they are plugged completely and you have to drill them out to clear them. I would recommend the JP gas block instead.

[Alleycat]

http://i408.photobucket.com/albums/pp164/CylonNL/clapping.gif

[Artful]

I then started cliping coils off of the recoil spring. After clipping NINE coils off it ran fine with the following sub sonic load.

Have you considered an smaller spring wound opposite of the factory spring with a short length with a higher rate to sit inside you shortened spring and only help with the last inch or two of arresting BCG?


If you want to switch back and forth between subs and standards I consider the two things below mandatory.

--Adjustable gas block.
--extra recoil spring.

Have you seen the AR whisper with two gas ports -one pistol the other regular? - tube adjustable gas selection.

Sounds like your well on your way to having a dual purpose set up. :grin:

[LouBoyd]

Sounds like your well on your way to having a dual purpose set up. :grin:

I own both LR-308s and 300 Whispers. None of them has or needs adjustable gas blocks or needs special buffer springs. I don't attempt to use supersonic loads in the 300 Whisper or subsonic loads in the LR-308.

There are a lot of reasons not to have a "does it all" subsonic/supersonic ARs. The main ones are:

different optimum barrel twist rates
different barrel length for desired performance
large difference in gas system Over 5 times difference in
available propellant gas.
Difficultly in achieving low velocity dispersion using excess capacity cases.
Wimpy performance from supersonic 300 Whisper compared to a 308 with no benefit.
Different throat requirements for light supersonic versus heavy subsonic bullets.
Different scope choice and different sight adjustments for super and sub sonic shooting.
Different suppressor requirements (if used)

By having separate dedicated rifles both can remain set up and and immediately ready for use.

[Alleycat]

I own both LR-308s and 300 Whispers. None of them has or needs adjustable gas blocks or needs special buffer springs. I don't attempt to use supersonic loads in the 300 Whisper or subsonic loads in the LR-308.

There are a lot of reasons not to have a "does it all" subsonic/supersonic ARs. The main ones are:

different optimum barrel twist rates
different barrel length for desired performance
large difference in gas system Over 5 times difference in
available propellant gas.
Difficultly in achieving low velocity dispersion using excess capacity cases.
Wimpy performance from supersonic 300 Whisper compared to a 308 with no benefit.
Different throat requirements for light supersonic versus heavy subsonic bullets.
Different scope choice and different sight adjustments for super and sub sonic shooting.
Different suppressor requirements (if used)

By having separate dedicated rifles both can remain set up and and immediately ready for use.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_Mallory

[LouBoyd]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_Mallory

What has that to do with the subject? Are you saying Mallory wouldn't have wanted two rifles? I'd agree with that, at least not a subsonic one. There's no mention in the article of any firearms.

Or are you saying you also take on difficult and adventurous tasks just for the enjoyment of it?

[i8asquirrel]

I own both LR-308s and 300 Whispers. None of them has or needs adjustable gas blocks or needs special buffer springs. I don't attempt to use supersonic loads in the 300 Whisper or subsonic loads in the LR-308.

There are a lot of reasons not to have a "does it all" subsonic/supersonic ARs. The main ones are:

different optimum barrel twist rates
different barrel length for desired performance
large difference in gas system Over 5 times difference in
available propellant gas.
Difficultly in achieving low velocity dispersion using excess capacity cases.
Wimpy performance from supersonic 300 Whisper compared to a 308 with no benefit.
Different throat requirements for light supersonic versus heavy subsonic bullets.
Different scope choice and different sight adjustments for super and sub sonic shooting.
Different suppressor requirements (if used)

By having separate dedicated rifles both can remain set up and and immediately ready for use.

and probably most important, yet another way to justify to the wife the need for yet another rifle in the safe!

[Alleycat]

What has that to do with the subject? Are you saying Mallory wouldn't have wanted two rifles? I'd agree with that, at least not a subsonic one. There's no mention in the article of any firearms.

Or are you saying you also take on difficult and adventurous tasks just for the enjoyment of it?

Exactly. I have multiple guns that are setup for super and sub. Why shoot subsonics though my 308 when I have a Whisper? Because it's there. That said, some guns are primarily for super and some are for sub.

[41MB-04TJ]

Earlier in this thread that was mention of reduced capacity cases. Who makes aluminum and who make the European brass? I found the Liberty Suppressors, but have not heard back from them.

Thank you

[Artful]

I don't know if Liberty Suppressor is up to making them anymore.
http://www.libertycans.net

the Canuk company that was making Aluminum doesn't have a website up anymore, so probably gone.

Never found the small Euro brass maker myself.