Is anyone lead casting bullets for 300/221 ?

[este]

Hi,

I'm new to reloading and the fireball AR I want to build will be the first rifle I reload for.

I know a guy locally to me that cnc machines bullet molds for lead casting. I read somewhere that since lead has a higher specific gravity then say copper or steel that the required twist rate could change.

Is anyone making their own whisper bullets ? Any advice as far as lube coating them ? I had read somewhere that lead bullets don't need to be coated as the lead is soft enough to slip through.

I'm guessing this isn't so uncommon. But I figured I'd ask.

Also, if I'm going to have him make me a special mold, is there anything to look for as far as shape (esp of the tail area?) ?

Thanks!

[hugginsvilleH&A]

este , I just got my mold to start casting for my whisper(check in the whisper reloading forum here), have heard nothing but nay sayers , saying it will mess your can up, it will plug your gas system up, have NOT heard from someone yet that actually experienced this for themselves, no insult meant for all the fair warnings being giving, I do appreciate their input and advice but I'm a little stubborn and will have to prove it to myself, I will be shooting strictly sub sonics and I really dont see where shooting lead that slow will have any of the fore warned leading issues. other than dealing with the lube being left in the can and posiibly gas system ???, I dont see the issue , bullets do not have contact in the can , its not being shot at a blistering speed so molting lead spray should be non existing, will report what I find out, as far as lube goes I would read some more maybe abc reloading, cast bullet performance, to start with. you definetly need to lube cast bullets also check out castboolits.com some guys over their shooting cast whisper bullets with factory molds regular from what I've read, also welcome to the forum:smile:

[redtazdog]

You should get a take apart can if you plan to shoot lead cast
bullets.
Anyone who has a 22 knows how the lead spray inside
of a 22 can buids up and not with blistering speed ammo, with a 30 cal can it will build faster.
You wont be happy after you shoot enough lead cast through
a sealed can and get a baffle strike or worse.
I'd hate to see a grown man cry but If you dont think this wont happen then go ahead.
Check the manufacture of your can and you may find out they say no lead cast bullets.

[hugginsvilleH&A]

red dog I appreciate the input , I got a question, I know .22 does not have lube grooves and lube do you think that may have some play into why .22 cans have lead problems ? no protection at all, possible blow by, My thinking is the lube would very much help with any leading issues , as far as a can it would definetely be a "take down" can, weather lead or jacketed, no manufacture, I could not afford that, the tax is enough it will be built in house as soon as my papers come back. but I do understand the concern. I finished up some cast today they weighed in at 219 grns will be slinging some next week and find out how wrong I am, or right , for me anyway:smile:

[este]

I disagree.

22 leading problems have to do with the sheer number of rounds put through. I can dump a box of 500 22s in an afternoon. I nor would most anyone else be shooting 500 whispers in a row.

Since we are talking about moslty low pressures and slow burn I would expect the chance of molten lead to be small. A cleaning solution of 1 part peroxide and 1 part vinegar will remove buildup from a sealed can.

I will be making my can sealed. Will it gather buildup from lead ? Yes, but with cleaning every 100 or so this won't be an issue. Certainly not to the level of baffle strikes. That's my opinion anyhow. Then again I'm setting my can up for 338 so a 308 should gave a little wiggle room.

I figure in a long day I might blow through 100 rounds but since I prefer long range I doubt it will be that many

[redtazdog]

I disagree.

22 leading problems have to do with the sheer number of rounds put through. I can dump a box of 500 22s in an afternoon. I nor would most anyone else be shooting 500 whispers in a row.

Since we are talking about moslty low pressures and slow burn I would expect the chance of molten lead to be small. A cleaning solution of 1 part peroxide and 1 part vinegar will remove buildup from a sealed can.

I will be making my can sealed. Will it gather buildup from lead ? Yes, but with cleaning every 100 or so this won't be an issue. Certainly not to the level of baffle strikes. That's my opinion anyhow. Then again I'm setting my can up for 338 so a 308 should gave a little wiggle room.

I figure in a long day I might blow through 100 rounds but since I prefer long range I doubt it will be that many
.
I see you went over to Silener talk and asked about the leading in cans
and the answer was from SWR the a maker of cans that
SWR has had several HEMSII's filled up with lead from cast bullets.
What you will find out is the wax on any bullet wont protect your
can in anyway and your can will fill up with 1/2 the rounds as 22lr
because of the size of the exposed rear of the lead to the flame of the fired
round.
The fire behind a 22lr bullet isnt even 1/2 of what you will be puting
behind a subsonic 300 whisper bullet.
But like I said go ahead and find out on your own.
Never mind that some of us have allready been through this.
You think some of us dont shoot 500 rounds in 1 shooting session! LMAO
I shoot 200-300 rounds of my 510 whisper single shot in one sitting and
double that with the 300 Whisper semiauto.

[HUNTER2]

Have put only 500 cast through my TC whisper so far. About 1,000 jacketed bullets. The powder seems to be more of a problem (296,110) than the bullet through the OPS INC. But I don't have the experience these guys have! Working on another one using the 215 SWC .357 on a benchrest case. Hope I haven't messed up. I did contact the ones that make Halo suppressors and they said using them with gas checks was not a problem...Let us know how it goes....

[este]

Redtazdog, yes, I know your opinion on this. You told me on another forum. You've made your opinion very clear. I came here to find others who could confirm or deny. Please don't add any more on subject unless you have something new and constructive to say. Thanks.

Hunter2: You've noticed the powder building up ? How / Do you clean you tacOps can ?

Yea, I seem to be at 50% for received opinions on this. I'll do some more research.

[HUNTER2]

Ops Inc. can...I am new to this sub-sonic world. But using 110 or 296 in sub or super is dirty ( like a carbon buildup ). Shooting 357 full house with jacketed bullets has the same type of residue that is left..About like the old 870 powder - nasty - compared to h-4831. Very seldom shoot over 50 at a time, so buildup isn't a problem for "me"...I have heard that V-110 is cleaner. Will find out soon....

[amafrank]

A little background so you won't accuse me of making stuff up.
I am a class 2 manufacturer and I make suppressors for specialty applications. Not big numbers like GemTech or the others and I don't have a huge research lab. I do a lot of repairs on suppressors and the guns that use them so I see a wide variety of firearms, suppressors and use of different types of ammo. I think I'm pretty qualified to answer the question you asked based on experience with the subjects you asked about.

The problem with lead fouling in your suppressor has nothing to do with lube and everything to do with exposed lead. The lube may add to the fouling but it won't prevent any of the lead fouling.
The lead is heated by friction with the barrel and that will cause some vaporization which will deposit on the first cool thing it hits, normally the first couple baffles in the suppressor. The hot powder gasses also vaporize the lead which deposits the same as above. This isn't naysaying its just simple physics and is a fact not a theory. I've seen this in quite a few cans where customers shoot cast bullets in 9mm, .44 and 45 mostly. Some of the guns are subguns which do have a lot more put through them at one time and heat up more but I've also seen this in cans used on bolt action and semi auto rifles like the ruger 77/44 and the Camp carbines. The subguns will usually have thicker deposits no doubt due to the number or rounds fired. The others still show the hard deposits of lead products which are glassy, hard deposits and very difficult to remove. There is also carbon and unburned powder residues which are frequently layered between these hard lead glass deposits making them lumpy and odd shaped.
As for how this all affects the performance of the cans....it normally doesn't seem to change the sound much until it gets very thick. In cans with complex passageways it can increase the sound levels pretty quickly though by plugging passages or changing flow characteristics in ways that make the suppressor less effective. The biggest problem with lead is that the deposits are very hard and difficult to remove which can result in damage to your baffles when cleaning them. In stainless steel cans its possible to use toxic chemical solutions to strip the lead products but in aluminum and regular steel it will also strip the material which the can is made of.....

Now for gas ports in semi auto rifles. Even well designed gasports will scrape material off the bullet occasionally. With harder jacket material its usually not much and in high pressure rifles like the .223 and .308 this small scraping is usually blown out the vent in the gas system. When you go to lead the amount scraped off will invariably be larger since lead is softer. It will also "squish" due to the pressure behind it and that will cause it to squeeze into the gasport leaving a piece behind. The low pressure of the whisper won't blow the lead out like the 223 will. Over time you will end up with a larger amount of lead in the gas sytem and the occasional blasts from hot gas through the port will melt the surface of it sticking things together. I have drilled lead "slugs" out of a couple gasports on AR's for this reason. This lead doesn't seem to glaze like the deposits in the suppressor so its not as hard to remove.

As for your own use you can do as you please with your own toys and screw anyone that says otherwise. On the other hand, when you ask for advice or info on the internet you will invariably get some info you don't need or want. Just ignore it rather than chastizing the giver. People tend to be less helpful to you if they think you are going to be ragging on them for not giving you exactly what you want. You'd be surprised at how some fairly off subject info can actually lead you where you want to be....

Just my 2 cents and worth every penny. ( in my own skewed opinion )

Frank

[hugginsvilleH&A]

frank no one said anyone was "making things up" and I dont think I was "chastizing" anyone if you read my post I did say "no insult meant for all the fair warnings being giving, I do appreciate their input and advice" just wanted to hear from someone who actually tried it and their experience was____ . thats all that was meant. like I said before I appreciated everyones input , but everyone immediately jumped in dont do it and reason is they "heard" this and that. just looking for first hand experience thats all. cleaning of suppressors is manditory weather jacketed or lead, am I correct on this assumption? I will not be shooting 500 rounds a sitting, mine was more for the when the SHTF mode of pouring cast for ALL the guns I own if the obamanation wants to do something stupid with the ammo supply I would have my bases covered , that was all:grin:

[amafrank]

I understand your post and didn't mean to be chastizing you either.....it just seems to come out that way. I also realize there is a lot of internet chatter from guys who have never seen a suppressor but want to give advice so thats why I added the experience section to my post.

Now to answer that last bit you added, I don't clean any of the highpower supressors if I'm shooting jacketed bullets. In fact, the subgun cans don't really need to be cleaned either in most cases. Its the .22 cans that need cleaning and the big reason for that is the lead bullets that are fired through them. So in answer to your question I'd say no, suppressors don't really need to be cleaned if you don't shoot nonjacketed lead through them. Most of the debris you get in a low power suppressor can be easily cleaned with a dip in the solvent and only when you build up enough that its really noticable. I've fired over 500 rds in one sitting through a Gemtech Raptor 9mm can and not had to clean it. In fact, I've never cleaned the Raptor and I don't see any reason to. On the other hand, a customer regularly shoots cast lead through his CAC-9 suppressor on an M11/9 subgun and he cleans it regularly. I made a stainless blast baffle for him which he can blast or chem strip for that reason. It builds a pretty good coat of glass on that blast baffle in a few hundred rounds. Once again though, its a subgun that has a very high rate of fire so heat buildup is quick and for lead, heat is bad.

I hope that helps answer your question and if I seem overbearing and obnoxious its just me. Its not meant to be personal toward you.
Frank

[GaryM]

I have shot a lot of 200gr cast bullets out of my AR type whisper. I have not noticed any leading problem but the bolt and inside of the upper reciever get filthy fast. I use liquid alox as my lube and gas checks on my bullets.
Not to hijack this thread but I have a trident on the way and have been wondering about cast bullets too. I know about the leading problem but have found a little info on cleaning it.
Specifically using one of those electronic defoulers like the Outer Foul Out set up.
Is it possible to remove the lead fouling with something like this? I kow it won't remover powder fouling, that iw what the Kroil is for, but what about the lead?

[HotGuns]

Gentlemen,
I have recently made a bullet mold specifically for the .300Whisper. Its a 275 grain bullet with no lube grooves or gas check in an effort to maintain a high BC. The profile of the bullet is about the same as the Sierra BTMHP.

Since I have found that most lead bullets have a really blunt tip, they must be seated very deeply in the case to even chamber.Once you did that, they didnt feed in my Remington 700 that I built at all. They were a single shot propostition that I wasnt happy at all with.

So, I designed a bullet to be cast from lead that has a spitzer tip. Knowing that pointed lead tipped bullets are just waiting to be smashed, I put an 1/8 flat on them. Eventually, I'd like to try hollowpointing them.

A soft lead hp bullet that weighs 275 grains would be devastating on anything that it hit...ecpecially deer. To keep leading to a minimum, I plan on lubing them with Moly Coat,which will be applied in a tumbler.

Here is a picture of what I've got.

http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b130/HotGuns/IDCard02006.jpg

and here is the mold that made it, along with the single flute cutter that I used to bore the mold with...
http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b130/HotGuns/IDCard02002.jpg

What do yall think?

[dksd39]

damn nice- two questions
1- have you test fired any yet?
2- will you be selling bullets or molds?

[HotGuns]

I've shot a total of 2 unlubed bullets through my can. They fed well and I hit was I was aiming at.I didn't want to shoot more than that because I haven't got my Moly Coating powder from Midway yet.

I made this in my shop and have no plans to sell them,I doubt that there is really a demand for them. For the time I've got in it, I'm not sure that I could make it economically. I might be persuaded to sell some IF this little project works out.

I'm still in the experimentation stage.

[dksd39]

looking forward to seeing how they play out.

[GaryM]

Wow, nice molds/bullets. I would like to get my hands on a few of those.
I too am very interested in how they turn out at the range.

[eskimo1]

When you cast five bullets at a time, how long does it take to do, say a 100?

[HotGuns]

Dont know, havent tried it yet.

Making 20 took maybe 4 minutes total.

[Fudmottin]

It is an interesting setup. I would be curious about feeding in an AR. Also, does moly coat really help reduce leading? I would expect a steady state to be reached.

I'm also concerned that moly has the ability to produce H2SO4 in a barrel.

[HotGuns]

It may do it among other things but not on a scale large enough to be a problem. As long as it doesnt encourage a large dose of FE2O3 it ought to work.:grin:

[mooster1223]

FE2O3 is easily taken care of with liberal applications of OIL :smile:

[Fudmottin]

I see there are more fans of ferric oxide than ferrous oxide here :wink:

As you know, smokeless powder contains its own oxidizer and will work on the moon if so called upon. I don't know if acid loses its magic in a vacuum. But on a custom made Douglas barrel I wouldn't want to risk it! Although if I could afford to take it to the moon...

Of course poorly washed nitrocellulose may have remnants of both nitric and sulfuric acid in the residue in any case. So a bit of Hoppes no.9 on a few patches is called for anyway.

[hugginsvilleH&A]

HG how did the mold work ? are you sure you would not be interested in making/selling a mold maybe a 2 boolit version? I would be very interested hint hint:smile: