Which Suppressor?

[Fudmottin]

Hi,

I've only recently been told about the 30/221 AKA .300 Whisper. I was told about it by the person who built me a nice custom upper for an AR-15. That upper is in .223 Rem and has provision for a suppressor that I already purchased a long time ago for a Colt AR-15.

Now I'm seriously considering the 30/221 as a new AR-15 upper project. Everything about this round screams, "use a suppressor". Anyone in the US who has a suppressor knows what a headache it can be to go through the Form-4 process (mainly getting the CLEO signature. Once that is obtained, the rest is fairly easy except the long wait).

So now I'm researching suppressors that have been used for the whisper. I'm looking for experiences from people who actually own them and how satisfied they are. So far I've got three in consideration:

The AAC Cyclone (http://www.advanced-armament.com/cyclone.asp)
The Gemtech HVT (threaded version) (http://www.gem-tech.com/HVT.html)
The AWC Thundertrap (http://www.awcsystech.com/thundertrap.html)

The AWC is actually out of my price range at $995 + NFA Tax + PA sales tax.

BTW, what sort of noise levels do you get without a suppressor? I don't want to do yet another form for an SBR, so I will have a 16.5" barrel made in 1:8 twist. With luck, such a "long" barrel won't mess up accuracy.

[Gpz1100]

i have the aac cyclone and use it on, in 300-221, ar pistol, savage bolt rifle and pistol. with subs the bolt guns sound similar to a pellet gun. the ar is a little noisier. on my 308 ar it's like a 22 rifle

[Malaga]

I really like my Thundertrap.. built like a brick shithouse. If you limit usage on the Whisper to sub loads you can get away with a 9mm can and save some $$.
Just ordered a SWR Trident 9 and have some waiting to do :(

[Pitt300]

VERY pleased w/AAC 762SD w/QD.

[nwcid]

I have a Thundertrap as well but unless you want or need to use it on bigger guns like the .300 Win Mag that it is rated for then it is a bit over kill.
I have heard tons of good things about the AAC 762SD and would be my .30 cal can of choice. Keep in mind with this can you can use it on anything smaller then .308.
If you are only going to shoot (only) subs with the can the Trident is a great way to go. I am looking at getting one as soon as I can afford it, but that is a few months off.

As for the LEO sign off get a Trust and transfer that way. It is so much simpler. Do a web search on it, there is a ton of info out there.

[dksd39]

I have an SWR and SAS. The SWR is a great can but for the money you would be hard pressed to beat the SAS. Its almost half the price. If I had bought the SAS first I would have 2 and not have purchased the SWR.

[Fudmottin]

I missed the SWR and SAS. What brand?

I do happen to own a Remington 700P in .300 Win Mag. And yes, I have considered the Thundertrap for it. However, annoying little things like available cash, namely the lack thereof, have so far prevented me from getting it.

Also the Form-4 thing is such a hassle. However, I have an AWC Raider (yes it was expensive when I got it). Now I'm in dire want of a .30 cal deal. And I know there are more than just three manufacturers out there.

I do love the AWC Raider. It is very solid. So I know the Thundertrap would be very good. It's just the price that turns me off. The Cyclone is just under $700. To put that in perspective, that covers the cost of a bolt / carrier group assembly with change to spare or an A3 upper assembly with change to spare.

I also rarely get to shoot the .300 Win Mag. It is in fact in its box sans scope. It might be a good idea for me to sell it. OK, I threw up in my mouth a little saying that. Sell a gun? Geez! You only do that if they don't work right! :evil

[Pitt300]

Another reason I went w/AAC's 762SD is that it is rated up to a 300 Win Mag!
I also like the fact that it does not shoot loose like some of the other units you hear about.

[nwcid]

Also the Form-4 thing is such a hassle. However, I have an AWC Raider (yes it was expensive when I got it).

Again look into doing a trust. It makes the process very simple. NO LEO, NO finger prints, NO photos, NO hassle.

[nwcid]

Another reason I went w/AAC's 762SD is that it is rated up to a 300 Win Mag!


I did not know that. Man I now wish I had one of those since they go on the M1A so easy :mad:

[redtazdog]

Another reason I went w/AAC's 762SD is that it is rated up to a 300 Win Mag!
I also like the fact that it does not shoot loose like some of the other units you hear about.
.
A+ for the AAC 762sd
I have been using it on my AR and the TC.
Soon I will have a dedicated 300 whisper can that is light like a
9mm can.
James at Degroat Tac Arm was making a small amount of
the 300 whisper Recon cans that are 12 inch.
http://www.armamentsales.com/suppressors.htm
This can will work perfect for a integeral setup I have planned.

[dksd39]

here the SWR link
http://www.swrmfg.com/products.asp
and the SAS link
http://www.sas-llc.us/product1.php

[Medic650]

I have a Yankee Hill Machine Phantom 7.62. On my whisper upper the action cycling is the loudest noise with subsonics. On my 308 winchester it sounds like a pellet gun with subsonic. The YHM Phantom is rated for full auto and 300 Win Mag also.

[Fudmottin]

Again look into doing a trust. It makes the process very simple. NO LEO, NO finger prints, NO photos, NO hassle.

I'll have to check that out. It sounds too good to be true though.

Of course the entire NFA + GCA should just go away.

Excise taxes are one thing. But the NFA + GCA can't possibly be legal.

[Fudmottin]

Well in terms of choices, I think the decision on which suppressor to get is actually becoming more difficult! :-)

I've got quite a list of possibilities going.

I must confess that I am a bit concerned about the less expensive suppressors. How can a suppressor that is just over half the price of an AWC Thundertrap be as good or as reliable?

[interceptor]

In answer to two of your questions:

YHM is a good can, mine works just fine and the price was even better.

Doing your transfers through a revocable living trust is easy, fast, and most important, legal. I did my first transfer personally and the following 3 through the trust I set up. WAY faster.

[Gpz1100]

everyone builds a better mouse trap

my first can was a 22lr using stamped washers. cost was 89 bucks. with std velocity or subs, i don't see how a $500 can could be any quieter. $.02

[dksd39]

to address your concern about price- big company=big overhead. The small builders do not have an advertising budget or a sales rep staff but that does not mean they make an inferior pruduct. In fact it has been my experience that they often provide an excellent product with better customer service. Do a little research on the builders in this thread and you will find a ton of info. You will be happy with any can from any builder so far mentioned and you can pay more for a name if you choose

[Fudmottin]

Thanks for the info so far. From what I understand with the trust thing, I have to get an NFA lawyer to set that up. Presumably I still pay the $200 NFA tax too. So this seems like the route to go if I can't get the CLEO sign off. From what I've read elsewhere, that shouldn't be an issue.

As for the lower cost suppressors, one of my concerns is maintenance. My AWC Raider is made from 304 Stainless steel and simply won't rust. It also has no wipes or artificial environment like packing that needs to be maintained. And it doesn't care if I dunk it in hot, soapy water (that is the recommended cleaning method).

Durability is the other concern I have. I would likely empty a 20 round magazine (or even a 30) in a short time. Those things get hot. Although I imagine whisper loads have lost a lot of gas heat in a 16" barrel as well as muzzle blast.

Essentially I want the suppressor to outlive me (and I never want to die!).

So if all the above mentioned suppressors can do that, I would be very tempted to go with one that is rated for at least the 7.62x51. That would be for a possible future purchase of an AR-10. We'll see how the law goes on that. I'm probably going to sell the .300 Win Mag. There are just no ranges around to let it get its legs. Shooting a .300 Win Mag at ranges under 500 meters seems like such a waste.

[interceptor]

From what I understand with the trust thing, I have to get an NFA lawyer to set that up.

Nope. You can set it up yourself at home.

[Fudmottin]

Nope. You can set it up yourself at home.

How do you do that? What are the costs? Is it guaranteed to pass BATFE and a Class III dealer's scrutiny?

How do NFA transfers actually go on a trust anyway? Could someone verbally walk me through the process, please? I've gone through the Form-4 thing, so I know how that dance goes.

Mind you, if an NFA lawyer in my area is willing to do it for a reasonable fee (I don't have a definition of reasonable, but anything that causes sticker shock ain't it), I would go that route just to have


Someone I can sue if it turns out to be bogus.
Have a known lawyer I can turn to if I had to. Needing a lawyer is the wrong time to start looking :smile:

[Pitt300]

All of mine are on trusts!

Your remark of: Someone I can sue if it turns out to be bogus.
Makes me want to tell you to go figure it out for yourself!

Interceptor gave you good information!
There are MANY posts here & on http://www.silencertalk.com/forum/ to help you figure it out!

[interceptor]

Someone I can sue if it turns out to be bogus.


That pretty much signals the end of me posting on the subject to you. Have a nice day.

[Malaga]

Interceptor...I agree with you on this. There are some real strange folk out there...

[Fudmottin]

I'm sorry. I didn't mean to sound crass or anything. A few days ago I didn't know these alternatives existed. Had no clue. So I am grateful for the information.

Dealing with NFA firearms carries legal risks if you don't know all the rules. I'm not interested in facing a ten year prison sentence and $250,000 because I forgot to check a box on a form or something like that. For all I know, that might happen if I was using Quicken or something like that.

The "it" in "it turns out to be bogus" was meant to refer to the trust created, not the information you were giving. I've researched enough to know that these trusts are real and do not game the system. I've got a recommendation for an experienced NFA trust lawyer. So I've got someone to call.

If a lawyer screws up, that's malpractice. So there is legal recourse. If I screw up using a DIY trust kit, I think I'm up a rather famous creek without a paddle.

So again, I'm sorry if there was any misunderstanding. I'm just trying to dot my echos and cross my tangos.

[mooster1223]

Another reason I went w/AAC's 762SD is that it is rated up to a 300 Win Mag!
I also like the fact that it does not shoot loose like some of the other units you hear about.


Are you sure that the 7.62-SD is rated to 300 win mag? The AAC site lists a 300-SD for the win mag http://www.advanced-armament.com/300_sd.asp

I'd hate to try a 7.62-SD on a 300WM and destroy the can.

Jim

[Fudmottin]

Take this with a grain of salt. Or perhaps an entire jar.

I would expect that if you used the smaller suppressor you would get less noise reduction and a hotter can. The muzzle pressure is certainly higher in a .300 Win Mag over a .308 Win. But if the can is built to the standards AAC claims, I don't think it will burst or anything like that.

You may also want to wait longer between shots.

I don't think many of the .30 cal cans are rated for full auto fire. So you might think of a .300 Win Mag as two rapid shots of a .308. That is assuming the baffles are properly secured.

According to AWC, the .300 Win Mag produces the same sound pressure levels as a .308 Winchester. The difference, which increases the perceived noise, is that the duration of the blast is longer. If this is true, then the muzzle pressure is limited by the diameter of the barrel. You just have more hot gas pouring through over a longer period of time.

That said, I would go for a proper .300 Win Mag can if I was shooting .300 Win Mag.

[Pitt300]

I have an email from Freddy @ AAC that states:

"If the cartridge generates less pressure than a 300win mag and the bullet is 308 or smaller in diameter you should have no problems."

This is one of the reasons that I purchased the 762sd!

[mooster1223]

Well thats great news! I'll be able to use my SD on the 300 win mag & 7mm rem mag.

Jim

[Artful]

I have AAC Cyclone - at the Time I researched my purchase, it wasn't the quietest can for sub or supersonic loadings but it was in the top for each catagory - Although if I was limiting my budget and purchasing now I would buy YHM 7.62 and get FH's for my Whisper, FAL and AR15 and use the same can on all of them.

My cyclone was made in 2005, and is NOT rated for use in 300 win mag only the newer cyclones without the plug welding are listed as able to be used on 300 win mag and you
have to take into acct the barrel length as it determines pressure of the muzzle blast the cyclone has to handle. As far as litigation goes, I wouldn't want to touch your case as all the maker's sell cans with enough statements as to when their intended use is and not warrentied for any other use either expressed or implied.

[Fudmottin]

I just looked up the YHM Phantom 7.62 (YHM-3400). It looks like a good value.

This is going to be my first .30 cal can obviously. And I've already amortized my AWC Raider over four different rifles now (all threaded). I'm not clear if the flash hider uses the 5/8"-24 standard. My whisper will be an AR15. Well an upper anyway.

One thing I like about a threading standard is that it is easy to get any barrel made to that standard.

I think Artful has a point about using .300WM in a standard 7.62. Depending on how the suppressor was made, I may or may not feel confident doing it. I might as well just bite the bullet and buy the Thundertrap. Although with all the warrantees reading about the same, and 30-221 being hand loaded, there doesn't really seem to be a warrantee.

Well I've got a list. I'm checking it twice. Um, what?

[Medic650]

I have the YHM SS Phantom 7.62 and have been pleased with it. On my Whisper AR all I hear is the buffer spring and action. I've shot it on my 308 with subsonics and it sounded like a pellet gun going off. The Phantom didn't do well in http://www.silencerresearch.com/ tests for some reason. For the money I'm still not disappointed. I also have the QD and am shooting it on 5.56 also.

[Cornholio]

Is there any kind of consensus on which is the quietest .30cal suppressor for SUBSONIC use? Most of the time when 30cal suppressors are metered, it is with full-power supersonic ammo. I'm more interested in subsonic performance.

[Pitt300]

Seems like my AR Whisper w/762sd & subsonics metered somewhere around 114db @ Longview shoot.
It's on Silencer Research's website.

[Cornholio]

I couldn't find it there, but thanks for the info.

[kdiver58]

Here's a pic with my AAC Cyclone 2008

http://home.comcast.net/~kdiver/cyclone2.jpg

Here's a link to the Liberty Can's web site. It's another can maker
I was introduced to at AAC's shoot.
I'm in the blue shirt a shooting a Liberty Cans Suppressor
at the 2008 AAC silencer shoot. David's a great guy.
He will warranty the can no matter what and build
you exactly what you want.


http://libertycans.net/blackraven.html

[Fudmottin]

That video reminded me that I keep forgetting to get a brass catcher.

Must say I'm impressed with the noise level reduction.

While it may well be ideal to tune / optimize for a particular load, I expect or at least hope to be able to use whatever can I end up getting on a .300 Win Mag or at least a 7.62x51. I'm willing to sacrifice a bit of noise reduction for versatility.

It's looking like I'll have plenty of time to shop for the can. Thanks to all the panic buying going on, the parts I need for an AR-15 upper are really hard to get. I have an order in with DPMS. But the lead time is 4-6 months. That's no typo. I'm going to see if I can find the bits I need locally so I can cancel that order and have the upper built sooner.

It's ironic that I can get a custom upper for less money than a lot of off the shelf units.

[mooster1223]

It's looking like I'll have plenty of time to shop for the can. Thanks to all the panic buying going on, the parts I need for an AR-15 upper are really hard to get. I have an order in with DPMS. But the lead time is 4-6 months. That's no typo.


4-6 months is about what you'll be looking at for a can if you can't find what you want locally. Make sure if you order from out of state that the dealer has "can in hand". It will take 4-6 weeks to get the form 3 done (dealer to dealer transfer), who knows how long to get your CLEO to sign off on the form 4 and then another 12 weeks at the BATFE.

[Fudmottin]

I don't recall how long I waited for my 5.56mm can. I remember it being a painful wait. That was in 1999. That's a major reason why I don't already have a 7.62mm can now. Delay the pain. However, I'm looking forward to getting a 30-221 upper built and having a can to put on it to shoot subsonics as was obviously intended for a round of this nature.

The timing of my custom AR in .223 was rather interesting. Everything came together all at once. It was during that project that I first heard of the 30-221. I didn't know what it was until doing an Internet search and finding out that it was synonymous with the .300 Whisper. That same research and the guy who made my barrel for me both said that the 30-221 was a better first wildcat to start with than the .458 SOCOM.

Once the back log of AR parts orders is unclogged, I will be able to get a nice upper built and perhaps the can will be waiting or in process.

I'm certain I will enjoy the round. I just hope I don't like it too much. .223 is a lot cheaper to load for. Mind you I would never consider trying to find a subsonic .223 load. I've got .22LR for that :-)

The 30-221 will prove gratifying if I can knock over the rams on the 500 meter line with 240gr SMKs. They draw the line at 6mm for silhouette. I guess a 69er can't knock down the rams. I'm sure it would still go splat.

[JimM44]

So no one commented on the Gemtech HVT, that's what I ordered.

Of course it will be months before I have it but that's what I planned on using on the 300.

So did I make a decent choice?

[Malaga]

Heres a vid of a Whisper with an AWC Thundertrap... real quiet..
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QsruorCgXRo.. rifle was set up by Spook here on Quarterbore...

[Fastshooter03]

I will be using a YHM 9mm Wraith with my whisper. When it gets warmer out I'll let ya know.

Nick

[m21black]

I have a AAC Cyclone and a SAS 30 cal can... can't beat the SAS for the money. Work great on my 308 but you don't need high tech cut edge to make a whisper quiet.

[Fudmottin]

The chances of my going for an F1 can are rising quite a bit now. I probably can beat an SAS for the money. I may not get as light. But DNR should be as good or better.

I'm looking into a reflex design. Great for a large expansion chamber behind the muzzle. But it will be rather specific to the barrel. So the SAS will win in being able to be moved from rifle to rifle.