Modified 240 MK

[Alleycat]

I took .075 off the tip of a 240 MK and cut an x pattern in the hollow point of the tip. The cut was just to the lead. The jacket went 4 inches in and stopped. The core(177 gr) penetrated 18 inches of wet news print where it exited and went 5 inches into the back stop. The core turned into a U shape almost immediately. 1070 fps.

[ranger dave]

why waste your time making a dumb dumb bullet your acc. is gone you cant insure you do the same thing twice. just buy a soft point

[hugginsvilleH&A]

I say cool :smile:

[Alleycat]

This was a proof of concept bullet. If it would have had a bonded core I think it would have worked great. The hollow point itself was small and by its self only produces stress fractures along the tip. With the jacket pre cut it peeled back like a high velocity bullet. I am contemplating spending the money to build a bullet that will expand reliable every time unless I can get a manufacturer to do it. I think it is wise to experiment, don't you? If you are using a 230-250 gr soft point that expands 1.5 times it's original size let us know. Now I know if I build a bonded core bullet with a .020 jacket that has been serrated it will do what I want it to do. By the way the jacket went 1.45 times it's original size. I think it's cool too

[rumlover]

How did you make the cuts? I'd like to duplicate your experiment and test for penetration v/s deformation.

[Alleycat]

I used a dremel with the finest blade I could find to do the initial cut and then the X cut. I then cleaned the tip and loaded the bullet. I have a hollow pointing tool that I made from a RCBS flash hole deburring tool. I just turned it down to fit my Forster trimmer. I used it to finish off the tip and give the jacket a funnel effect. I did not get into the lead. If you would like, I will post some pics.

[rumlover]

please do, especially of the modified tool.

[Alleycat]

Let me know how it goes. I did this as a quick test and thought the results where interesting. If you used a meplat trimmer and the hollow point tool, the bullets would still be just as accurate, but you need a better way to do the cuts. As far as the core jacket separation I think a cannelure making tool could help, but separation might not be a bad thing.

[HUNTER2]

Alleycat - If you get it to working,are they up for sale? Sounds like you are on the right track...Contacted The Bullet Depot, 541-826-2999, They use to make a heavy bullet exactly what you ( we ) are wanting, but the fellow quit. So he sent another one to train at Corbin. He got back and said he didn't have enough time to do it. Supposed to let me know if he gets them back in production......

[Alleycat]

I'm ordering a press and dies from Corbin on Monday. I was just seeing what had to be done to get some expansion with MK jackets. What I am planning on trying first is something like a Hawk 250 shape with a 1/4 length 4 quadrant core and a fully serrated jacket. I think it will be easier to get this simple shape to work. The question is if it has a boat tail or flat base. I'm having trouble making up my mind. Once I get a design that works I would be more than happy to sell some. Its just too bad we don't have more hogs to test them on. It will take some time for Corbin to make and ship the supplies and I will have to test everything. If anyone has a suggestion before Monday let me know. Hopefully I can make enough for those of you who would like to hunt with this type of bullet.

[rumlover]

Thanks Alleycat, that will give me something to tinker with this winter.

[HotGuns]

Here ya go...
a 275 grainer for your suppressed needs...:grin:

http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b130/HotGuns/IDCard02006.jpg

Looks just like the one with the 220 Sierra Match Boatail, only this one is lead.
Feeds good too...

[interceptor]

WTH?:eek: More info!

[HUNTER2]

Does that thing actually stabilize? I like it! Just wondering - why so heavy? Have you tried to see if it will mushroom? What mix are you pouring?

[HotGuns]

Its 275 because thats what the mold that I made happens to throw them out at.

I am in the process of Moly Coating them now.

I made the mold purposely long. If they aren't consistently stable, I will shorten them until they are by cutting some off the top of the mold.

Currently, the alloy is wheel weights.Not know if they will expand, haven't shot anything with them yet. The two that I shot into the dirt went so deep into the backstop that I couldn't recover them.

[cav_scout_tj]

I like. I was thinking some lube grooves. My math says you should be able to get to 280 grains with 1/8 twist barrels.

Playing at the "online bullet design" at http://www.mountainmolds.com/, I got this 280 grain 30 cal mold:

http://listmequick.com/300/280gr_mold.jpg


Also, I was thinking, "How do you make lead heavier?" [Heavier material means shorter bullets] Tungsten of course. Its like 70% heavier than lead. The melting point is also north of 3000 degrees. But you can get tungsten powder, used in golf clubs and such. SO I ask you guys who know more about lead casting than I do, could you add tungsten powder to molten lead? would it increase the weight/density? Mix some of this:

http://s7ondemand5.scene7.com/is/image/Golfsmith/9466_im_____0_gsi?hei=250&wid=250&op_sharpen=1

[HotGuns]

Its already been done.
There is an alloy called Tungstalloy, which we use for fabricating balance weights used on steam turbines.

It is heavy and it is tough, tungsten is also an alloy ingredient that is used in steel, making it very tough and gives it the ability to hold its shape when its red hot.

You could use this for a bullet, but it would have to be machined and I'm pretty sure that it would be armor piercing due to the weight and toughness.

No way would it expand on a living creature its just to tough.

[Rikky Lee]

Increasing the Tin level in the lead increases its hardness. A quick Google across the muzzle loading sites will give you a good steer. My thoughts are a medium hard projectile with moly coating will start the required tumbling (ie not expand which is a supersonic concept) after an inch or so to tear a 70 cal hole in the target.

[HotGuns]

I don't think he is worried so much about the hardness of it as he is the weight.

A bullet the same length as say, the 240, that weighs 50% more that would weight 360 grains.

A 360 grain bullet the same size as a 240 would be quite the combination don't you think? That would be over 800 FPs of energy.

[cav_scout_tj]

Its already been done.
There is an alloy called Tungstalloy, which we use for fabricating balance weights used on steam turbines.

It is heavy and it is tough, tungsten is also an alloy ingredient that is used in steel, making it very tough and gives it the ability to hold its shape when its red hot.

You could use this for a bullet, but it would have to be machined and I'm pretty sure that it would be armor piercing due to the weight and toughness.

No way would it expand on a living creature its just to tough.

Its not a alloy, its more of a suspension. The lead melts at 600 deg, the tungsten not till 3000 deg, so the tungsten grains would still be in the lead. Its like the fillers you can add to epoxy resins. I guess that would be part of the problem, the fillers thicken up epoxy, so its more spreadable like peanut butter. A lead/tungsten powder mix might not flow well into molds. Have to mess with the composition, to see how much tungsten powder could be added and still have acceptable mold flow. Hell the tungsten may just sink to the bottom of the pot of molten lead, have to find out. If you could make a bullet, I dont think it would be very hard and may break up on impact. The thought was to increase the weight of bullets out of existing molds.

I dont think this concoction would be any good weight fabrication. Regular old tungsten would be much better.

My google on "Tungstalloy" came up empty, so I can't evaluate that.

[HotGuns]

I am not talking about suspension, I am talking about round rod that comes in various sizes that is heavier than lead.

I doubt that casting lead with tungsten will work for reasons you already stated.

http://www.tungstenalloy.com/tungstenheavyalloyproducts.asp

I have machined it in the rod form at work. I think it would make a great bullet.

[cav_scout_tj]

The military has been putting tungsten carbide penetrators in AP bullets for years. I guess longer pieces of tungsten with a jacket would do it, but nevermind expansion. Maybe prefragmented tungsten rod would make things more interesting.

http://www.outlawperformance.com/uploads/AP_core_tracer.jpg

[Alleycat]

look what I got.....They come in .308 200gr and 225gr .310 200gr .458 530gr
As soon as I get the go ahead . I will give out his contact info

[Garrett]

tag for info

[cav_scout_tj]

Very interesting. What do they look like form the nose? Big cavity I expect. Look forward to some test data.

[HUNTER2]

Is that serrations down the side? Bonded? More info please.....

[Alleycat]

It is a XHPRBT.... It has 6 serrations full length. The lead has been sectioned in a X pattern. Basically a X punch cuts the core half way down before the bullet is formed. A small amount of lube gets left on the cuts. When the bullet is formed the cuts are pushed together and are barely noticeable. The hollow point looks like a bowl shape. He offers them stepped/dual diameter or standard.



You can get them from
Out Law State Bullets
5236 Deer Ridge Trail
House Springs, MO 63051

# 636-375-5294
fasttwist@yahoo.com

.308 - 200gr for 1-11.25 and up 25 for $31.25
.308 - 225gr for 1-8 and up 25 for $31.25
.310 - 200gr for 1-10 and up 25 for $31.25
.458 - 530gr for 1-14 and up 25 for $50.00

.338 coming soon


Basically I was going to buy all the stuff to do this, but I was informed that he was about to go into production. I have 5 test bullet and will be putting them down range Friday.:grin:

[Alleycat]

Here is some of my lousy photography

[Alleycat]

Wet phonebook 16" of penetration. One expanded to .40 the other expanded to .44 not including petals, bullets weighed 181grs and 185grs. More tests this weekend.

[Malaga]

Real interesting looking bullets...

[Alleycat]

All bullets averaged about .43". My .45 hard cast bullets have a .362 meplat and they do a good job. I ordered 125 of the 225s so that a friend and I can do accuracy and field testing.

[Alleycat]

http://i830.photobucket.com/albums/zz229/alleycat72_bucket/458Sub005JPG.jpg
http://i830.photobucket.com/albums/zz229/alleycat72_bucket/458Sub009JPG.jpg

The 458 version

[HUNTER2]

Nice!!! What do you use the 458 in?

[d-mon]

a 458 socom of course :smile:
i m still waiting for my pacnor barrel in 458 with a twist of 1 in 13 to start that project.
:frown:

ND

[Alleycat]

I've got a 7" 458 socom upper on a pistol lower and I'm waiting on my Form 1 to come back so I can make a SBR. The 458 is a 530gr subsonic expanding bullet. Recommended twist in the socom is 1 in 14 or faster. It came with the 225 Whisper bullets I ordered:nanabang: Now if I could get one of you fine guys to build a suppressor for me I'd be set:grin:

[HUNTER2]

Have you checked out Liberty Suppressors? Will make about anything for you.

[strycnine]

I'd like a suppressor for my Marlin 45/70......:grin:

[Alleycat]

http://www.eliteiron.net/


I have one on the way for the SOCOM. One word of caution, They like guns and there nice people so if you call you might order one.:smile:

[thehouseproduct]

Here ya go...
a 275 grainer for your suppressed needs...:grin:

http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b130/HotGuns/IDCard02006.jpg

Looks just like the one with the 220 Sierra Match Boatail, only this one is lead.
Feeds good too...

No lube grooves or gas check?

[Fritzcat]

I am very interested and I will definantly shoot a hog with one. Let me know what a few of these will cost.

[sha-ul]

Here ya go...
a 275 grainer for your suppressed needs...:grin:

http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b130/HotGuns/IDCard02006.jpg

Looks just like the one with the 220 Sierra Match Boatail, only this one is lead.
Feeds good too...



what ever became of this experiment?

[Spanners]

Bump

Interested to see progress

[i8asquirrel]

Allycat, I was thinking of trying to mount my collet bullet puller through the table of my drillpress, putting a deadstop into it and then using it to deep drill a hoolow point into some projectiles for 300 blackout/whisper ( trying to find something that will open up at sub.vel. but still be stable and accurate. I was leaning towards a 220gr round nose that wuold wind up in the 180/190 gr range with a large open tip. ( like the speer 110 gr HP on steriods!) good luck.

[dick]

Just got some 240gr Outlaws State Bullets in the mail. I should be ready for any crunch time!:grin:

[martineta]

That's a heck of a "some" you got there dick. Whoa be apun the deer in your neck of the woods.

[HUNTER2]

i8asquirrel - send me your addy and I'll send you some Clearwater Custom, and Lehigh bullets. The Diamondback are not in yet. These will open up on deer and leave a good trail. They say the Outlaws are really good - picture above don't know if there is any left! :smile:But have not tried any of them.