Any 25 Remington fans out there?

[Supersporter40]

Alright, I admit it, I'm a 25Rem fan. Anyone else out there have any load ideas for the Model 8, 14 and 30?

I haven't had my 8 or 14 very long but from the two shooting sessions I have had with them it has been a great time.

The 117gr Hornady is the only one I have found to feed in the 14 so far. Not because of nose profile but because of the COL being too long with even the 85gr Nosler.
The 85gr Ballistic tip does however feed very well in the Model 8 as would any profile I believe.

I have only tried H380 so far and it worked real well but testing was only at short range.

Any suggestions or experiences would be great to hear. This chambering was used by my family since 1932 if not sooner so it is mainly a nostalgia thing for me to shoot this rifle. It will be hunted with.:cool:

[Tbury]

I have been reloading and shooting 25 rem for 40+ years. I shoot it in a Stevens 425, Rem Mdl 8 and Rem Mdl 14. My favorite powder for 25 is 3031 mostly behind 117 soft points or 112gr cast with gas check.

[Supersporter40]

Hey Tbury.

What mould is your 112gr?
I have some hard cast light FN cast that I have yet to try.

http://i184.photobucket.com/albums/x170/NoelConrad/DSCN1882.jpg

One on the left, of course! :grin:

I have been reworking some of my pictures for the History book release.

Uncle Leif and his Remington 14 in 25 Rem
http://i184.photobucket.com/albums/x170/NoelConrad/LKEMuleDeer1945.jpg

Local trapper Martin Arneson and his 1911 built Model 8 in 25 Rem
http://i184.photobucket.com/albums/x170/NoelConrad/MartinArneson-2.jpg
http://i184.photobucket.com/albums/x170/NoelConrad/Martin3.jpg



Another Neighbor and friend of my Great Grandparents with his Model 8 in 25 Rem
http://i184.photobucket.com/albums/x170/NoelConrad/JohnHaug-1.jpg

[Tbury]

My mould is for a Lyman 257325 bullet that looks a lot like the one on the left of your picture. The nose is a little more rounded and it has a gas check. Depending on the alloy it weighs between 112 and 115 gr.

[Supersporter40]

Have you found any specific COL works best with your cast for feeding in the Model 14?

[Tbury]

Have you found any specific COL works best with your cast for feeding in the Model 14?

Have not gotten that detailed yet. I just stick with the COL listed in the reloading handbooks. With a corn shucker I do not think you can do the seating tricks that bolt actions allow. JMHO:wink:

[Supersporter40]

I am meaning more the COL that will feed reliably moreso than the COL that gets you X amount away from the rifling leades. I have not tried my cast boolits and am just curious if they hang up at all in the feed mechanism when shorter. Shouldn't be an issue if the cartridge stop is doing it's job I guess but you never know.

For the Model 8 it will be interesting to see how the 85gr NBT will perform on a coyote at 2400 impact velocity intead of 1000 faster like it was meant to be going.

[Tbury]

I am meaning more the COL that will feed reliably moreso than the COL that gets you X amount away from the rifling leades. I have not tried my cast boolits and am just curious if they hang up at all in the feed mechanism when shorter. Shouldn't be an issue if the cartridge stop is doing it's job I guess but you never know.

For the Model 8 it will be interesting to see how the 85gr NBT will perform on a coyote at 2400 impact velocity intead of 1000 faster like it was meant to be going.

I have only been loading the longer bullets (117 JSP, 112 cast) which have similar profiles and length. I have not loaded any 87 gr bullets since I tried some 85 gr half jackets years ago. The 1 in 7 twist of my Stevens spun the jackets right off. Then I realized the bullets were designed for 25-20 velocity.:eek:

[Supersporter40]

I loaded a few 86gr in my 25-06 Ruger once. If I recall they chrony'd just over 3600. They had the same problem, a couple would not make it to the target after blowing up in mid air. Had to try tho, they were cheap!

Got one coyote with that load and there was no pelt left, soft ball sized hole in the off side with hitting only one rib.:frown:

[Rickster]

I am a big fan of anything .257 and think the 25 Rem is a great cartridge even though it didnt survive long. I have a Remington Model 30 Express and a (rebarreled) Ruger #3 in 25 Rem. I am currently in the process of cataloging load data for them since not much is available from the usual sources. I was surprised to find out that the 25 Rem is closer to the 25-3000 than to the 25-35 (despite what some loading manuals say). By my measurements, the case holds only 1 or maybe 2 grains less than a 25-3000 (which is another great cartridge, btw). In these two strong actions I have been able to duplicate 250-3000 velocities with little trouble.

[Rickster]

Hey SS40. Those are some cool pictures. I especially like the expressions on the faces of the people in the pics. No fake smiles like you get today. I almost feel like I know those guys, just from seeing those pictures. And the guy with the goatee and big moustashe. What a character he must have been. Maybe it is just that all 25 guys are "special"?

[Supersporter40]

Hi Rickster! :smile:

I found the same thing as far as case capacity. I wasn't suprised by that as much as I was by how stout and short the 250 HP case looks beside the Remmy. Had UMC used a design with the shoulder pushed forward it could have been identical I bet. The way it is the 25 Rem looks to be built for shooting cast with the long neck.

I loaded up a dozen 25Rem last night using 29gr of H380. 117gr Hornady seated to 2.540" is perfect for the crimping on a trimmed case. It should be just short of 2300 fps.
Will be shooting for groups with the model 14 and the model 8. Will be the first time for using the aperture on my model 8.:smile: Be interesting to see how the same load works in two totally different rifles.

Will also be trying the 250 HP, 30-40, 7x57 and maybe even an 1100 Husqvarna in 06 if I buy it tonight.:smile: Hope to post favorable results upon my return.:wink:

[Supersporter40]

Hey SS40. Those are some cool pictures. I especially like the expressions on the faces of the people in the pics. No fake smiles like you get today. I almost feel like I know those guys, just from seeing those pictures. And the guy with the goatee and big moustashe. What a character he must have been. Maybe it is just that all 25 guys are "special"?

The Goatee guy was a character indeed. His son now 87 years old is a friend of mine and we have swapped many a good story. He does the talking and I just soak it all up. The picture is actually a hoax in itself. It is all genuine, but for a laugh he pasted on that goatee and mustache. It came out as a great picture, I wished he had done one without it tho. I'll be getting them blown up for the "toy room" display.

Here is another pic of the Goatee Guy and Martin Arneson moose hunting with their 25 Rems!:eek:
http://i184.photobucket.com/albums/x170/NoelConrad/JohnandMartin.jpg
http://i184.photobucket.com/albums/x170/NoelConrad/Jimmy5.jpg
http://i184.photobucket.com/albums/x170/NoelConrad/Jimmy6.jpg

[Rickster]

hahaha I thought maybe something was going on with that goatee pic. Looked like that moose had been dead for a while.

Have fun shooting. I had planned on shooting (instead of typing) this morning but I am now waiting on a cold front to clear out. Weather should be nice after that.

I have a lot of 25 Rem data, still in notepad form. I need to get it transferred to the computer so I can post it.

Regarding 117gr bullets. I tried out 120gr bullets in the Mo 30 last weekend. 4350 was the IMR powder of choice. On a lark, I tried RL15, which should be a little too fast. Worked great. Easily got 2500fps without too much pressure. Great accuracy.

I recently got set up to reload at my range. So it is now a lot more efficient for me to develop loads than before. But, on account of the wind, I use a powder measure instead of a scale. So all my data is in numbers such as 2.65, 2.7, etc. I need to convert them before I pass them on.

[Rickster]

Back from the range. Was working up 100gr loads with 3031 in the Mo 30, looking for something mild in the 2500 to 2600fps range when I had a case head separation. No harm done. Didnt even notice anything until I tried to extract the case. These cases had been shot alot, and sometimes hard. Time to retire them.

I had 7 previously loaded rounds for the Ruger #3 (87gr Hornady SP with 31gr of H4895 for 3050fps). Since I had decided to retire these cases, I decided to empty them into a target. The two shots to the right are sighters. The five in the center target were shot rather quickly with the scope set at 7 power. While shooting, I couldn't tell the difference between the target dot and the bullet holes. I sure was pleasantly surprised when I looked in the spotting scope. I havent done anything to this rifle other than put an old scope on it. The barrel isn't free floated. I haven't fine tuned the load. No trueing of the cases. The tarnished bullets were from an odd lot I picked up cheap at a local gunshop. Yadda Yadda. I can only imagine what a 25 Rem is capable of with quality bullets, in a Rem 700, with a bench stock and a target scope.

[Supersporter40]

Well at last I got to shoot 100yds with both the 25's yesterday. Can't say as I am excited about the results tho. The sun was blazing ( I have the sun burn to prove):tongue:. Anyway, I had a time trying to get a bead on my 6" bullseye with the glare on the front bead being off to one side slightly. I held the same for the groups in each gun and only managed about a three inch group with either gun. The 14 has the typical wheel sight and the Model 8 wears a Marbles tang sight.

Load was CCI250's (all I have for primers) H380 at 29gr and the 117gr Hornady RN. That should be about right as I was getting one inch groups at 30 yds both times before shooting the 14. Glad I only loaded 11 rounds of that load. I have been able to get groups half that size before with irons in bolt guns, but maybe that is too much to expect from these old girls. Bores are almost like new in both. I dunno.

Going to try some other loads with perhaps 3031 that Tbury has proven in his little gem.:smile:

[Rickster]

You might feel better if I were crazy enough to take and post pics of my typical groups when the sun gets involved with a front bead sight. I usually burn those targets before anyone sees them.

The only iron sights I can shoot consistently use a front sight I made myself. It is a .25 inch peep (yes, on the front). I combine it with a 0.1 peep in the rear. Works great for old eyes. The combined effect of the two peeps is to bring the target into perfect focus. Just put the target in the middle of the front peep and pull the trigger. The rear sight acts like a ghost sight, giving a fuzzy outline. After very little practice, getting everything centered is fast and goes without thinking. I find that I shoot better in the field with this setup than I do with a scope. Milk jugs at 200yds don't have a chance if I point my Rem Mo. 25 or Mo 14 their way.

I put a better scope on the Ruger #3. Testing went OK, but it was windy. I need to redo one of the scope mount holes also. It is way off center. Probably wont shoot any better when I get done, but it will look a whole lot better.

[Supersporter40]

I wonder if it isn't the primer being too hot. A standard one might be better.
It didn't help when my wife came over to ask if I was almost done:rolleyes: she only gave me two hours in the first place to shoot five rifles. Didn't get quite finished with all the loads for all of them.
My Krag did shoot very well on the other hand. Just need to try it again to prove the load on several targets and then I can load a bunch for it come winter time. What a pleasant suprise to see three strikes from that carbine go inside an inch with next to no load development. Wait, someone slap me, it was likely a fluke.:tongue:

[Rickster]

I didnt have much luck with H380 either. H380 gets weird as the case starts getting full. My theory is that it packs up and doesnt ignite well. But you know what they say about theories.

3031 gave super results with 75gr bullets, and decent results with heavier bullets. I havent tried it on 117 or 120 bullets yet. Some things to keep in mind with 3031: - It meters poorly (not an issue if you weigh loads). - Pressure rises quickly as the load increases. Looking at my 3031 w/100gr data, the velocity curve arched upward, instead of being a straight line or leveling out as other powders do. I have noticed with my Mo 14 in 30 Rem that each grain makes a big difference when getting near 30 grains. Paco made a similar note regarding 30-30. - It is also a bit fast for optimum use in the 25 Rem with heavier bullets. Having said all that, I think it should do well with light loads in the Mo14 or 8. Its big advantage in that regard is that it is bulky. 26.25 grains of 3031 takes up the same amount of space as 29 grains of H380. So even light loads will do a decent job of filling the case.

In my preliminary tests, RL15 worked the best with heavy bullets in the Mo 30. RL15 is very close in speed to H380 but requires a less powder weight. Pressure behaves well as the load increases. With 120 gr bullets, I took it up to 32gr and near 2600fps in the Mo. 30. Best load for that rifle was 31gr for a little over 2500fps, but that is probably too hot for the Mo 14 or 8. I am thinking 27 to 28 grains should give you 2300fps, and mild pressure, depending on the rifle.

[Supersporter40]

The other thing I believe you mentioned was the temperture of H380 can get quite high increasing the erosion of the leades. Another good reason to change. I have H4895, perhaps that is better. Where does one find the temperture of specific powders? All my rifles are vintage hard to replace items and they need to live almost indefinetely. They aren't really of huge value to other folk, just sentimental to me.:wink:

Alot of folk like to use a specific powder for each cartridge and I can see how that works better. Having said that it would be nice to feed the pigs with one fat keg. RL15 I have not tried in a few years but it seems pretty versatile. And as you mentioned meters much easier than all the IMR variants I have tried.

[Rickster]

I also like 4895. I consider it my general purpose powder. I only recently started using RL15 and am close to calling it my new general purpose powder. I shoot too much to weigh my charges. I used to use ball powders because they measure so well. But I dont like the heat they produce. The RL series looks like a good compromise.

I havent seen a source that give temperature effects, although I think it is generally accepted that ball powders heat fastest, followed by double base powders (such as RL15), and single base powders (IMR series) are the coolest. I cant tell the difference between RL15 and the IMR series, but the ball powders heat up fast.

I just finished reading an article by an engineer that explains a lot of things I have wondered about. I am going to have to change some of my thinking. If you are technically oriented, you may enjoy it also. If not, it will probably make your head hurt. If his theories are right, and they seem to be, it will make picking a good load a lot easier and faster. It may explain why tbury has been having good luck with 3031. Processing...
http://www.the-long-family.com/shock%20wave%20theory%20summary%20explanation.pdf

[Supersporter40]

While I love to learn technical stuff I have never had an ability to learn by reading very fast unless it slaps me up side the head. My history research for example boy it just sticks. I think I need to quit my job and go start a museum. I can sit and listen to the old folks all day long, they seem to enjoy being listened to as well.

I doubt there is enough ball powder here to do any damage to my barrels. They aren't being loaded to the nut anyway. More to duplicate the factory load of the day and maximize the accuracy.

Which 4895 are you running, H or IMR? Bet I could get by with that powder in all the cases I load save for the Swiss Vetterli.

[Rickster]

Been doing more load development and studying. I have a few things to offer.

3031 is the powder of choice for 25 Rem, in all bullets. It has a near ideal comibination of speed and density that make it suited to the lower pressures the older guns operate at. I have tried 14 powders and none beat it.

There is a sweet spot for the 117gr bullet at 2300fps that can be had with 25.5gr 3031, give or take 0.5 grain. Pressures are mild at about 30,000psi. This load shoots as good as my eyes can see in the 30 express with peep sights (2 inch groups or less), which is plenty good for field use. Approach 26.5gr and expect the groups to fall apart as you get near a point where the shock wave is at the muzzle as the bullet exits.

There is another sweet spot just under 2500fps, but that requires 28.5gr 3031 and runs 40,000psi, which is getting a bit high for the 8 and 14.

I would advise against 4895 (H or IMR) in the 25. 4895 is normally a very versatile powder, but it is unstable in the 25. Just a quirk of how the barrel harmonics line up with the burning speed. Velocities are erratic. I also got some nasty (hard and rough) fouling about 1/3 of the way forward of the chamber. Once that fouling builds up, the groups go crazy. It appears that there is a secondary explosion occurring at that point in the barrel. This happened in both my guns.

tbury noted that his accuracy went down as his gun got hot. I think what is going on is that as the barrel heats up, the velocity goes up enough to push the velocity out of the sweet spot. 26gr ran 2345 after my barrel got hot. The sweet spot abruptly ends at about 2325fps.