25x45 or 25/223

[sharps54]

Anyone tried this one? I was researching 6x45 for hunting with the AR15 and came across someone offering the 223 necked up to 25. I know the 6x45 will push the same weight bullet a bit faster then a 223 but I don't know if the quarterbore will go past the point of diminishing returns. The other issue would be OAL in the magazine. Since I don't varmint hunt (at the moment) a 25 makes more sense to me, especially if I can use the same bolt, magazines, and cases like the 6x45. I don't mind handloading but would like to stay with more common components and spare parts then the .25 WSSM would allow. If you could get 250 Savage performance out of an 20" AR that would be plenty, that may be way to optimistic though.
TIA,
sharps54

[Yoda]

If you can get your hands on "Wildcat Cartridges Volume II" it give a few defferent ideas on this. Most of the 25x47 brass is made from the .222 Rem Mag. case because of the longer neck. made with .223 brass, the neck is pretty short, the author go's on to state that with high velocity loads would in time erode the throat of the chamber.
velocitys in this artical range from
3,396 with a 60gr bullet
to
2,985 with a 100gr bullet
it doesn't give a OAL of a loaded cartridge so I can't help you out on if it will fit a AR mag.

[Colorado Osprey]

Here is a link where this subject was originally discussed :
http://www.oa2.org/forums/viewtopic.php?t=7322

Welcome aboard sharps54

[320pf]

Here is a photo of the 6.35x43mm wildcat. It is basically a 223 Rem necked up to 25 cal and shortened (~2mm) from 45mm to 43mm. I had to shorten the case a bit so when the bullets are seated deep enough to fit in an AR15 mag. the case mouth does not ride up too far on the bullet ogive.

CH-4D had a set of 25-223 dies in stock so I was able to put together several dummy rounds and see how they fit in an Ar15 mag. Others have had reamers made for this wildcat so the reamer drawing only have to be modified to accommodate the throat and lead. Kurtz gave me some suggestions and for throat and lead dimensions... The drawing is pretty much finalized, so on Monday the drawing and dummy rounds go off to PTG.... Hopefully, in about 4-6 weeks I get my reamer.



The reloading data for the 257 Kimber listed below should give one an idea of the velocity potential. I am going to build a 20" barrel for this cartridge so I expect to get velocities about 75 to 100 fps slower than those listed below.

257 Kimber (a.k.a. Copperhead) Barrel Length: 22"
Bullet--------Powder---- Grs.------Vel. (ft/s) Grs. Vel. (ft/s)
75GR. HDY HP---H335------28.0------2769---------31.5------3195
75GR. HDY HP---H4895-----28.0------2756---------31.5------3192
75GR. HDY HP---H322------28.0------2806---------31.5------3198
87GR. HDY SP---H335------29.0------2870---------31.0------3030
87GR. HDY SP---H4895-----29.0------2824---------31.0------3056
87GR. HDY SP---H322------25.0------2604---------28.0------2868
100GR. HDY SP--H4895-----26.0------2527---------28.0------2760



From Left to RIght.Black Hills 69g 223, 100g Sierra MK, 6.35x43mm w/100g Sierra MK, 100g Sierra GK, 6.35x43mm w/100g Sierra GK, 75g Hornady V-Max, 6.35x43mm w/75g Hornady V-Max, 85g Nosler Ballistic Tip, 6.35x43mm w/85g Nosler BT, 100g Sierra Pro-Hunter, 6.35x43mm w/100g Sierra Pro-Hunter, unloaded 6.35x43mm case, and Black Hills 77g 223.

Thanks for your time,

320pf

[Colorado Osprey]

That looks like about a 100ft/sec gain over published 6x45 data.
That should be good for an additional 3-5% energy with the larger diameter bullet and about 35% more than the 223.

The reason I went 6x45 was the mass availablity and choices in bullets.
The .257 diameter has never really had a lot of bullet choices.

[320pf]

Given the length limit of the AR15 mag, the bullet choice/weight is pretty much max at 100 gr.

I also shoot the 300 Whisper and I wanted a wildcat that did not require much case prep. but was looking for more velocity than the 6x45mm. The Hodgdon reloading manual indicates that a 75g bulllet in a 6x45mm tops out at about 2900-3000 fps. The ballistics for this wildcat should approximate the 250-3000 savage.... We will see.

Kutz's 25x40mm actually got me motivated to build this wildcat.

So how do you like shooting the 6x45mm?

320pf

[Colorado Osprey]

I don't even take a 223 for coyotes anymore.... just the 6x45's
The energy difference is apparent

[320pf]

Have you tried the 6x45mm on deer size game? I would guess that the 6x45mm work pretty well...You are only giving up about 100-150 fps to the 243W or 6mmRem.

320pf

[Colorado Osprey]

I haven't tried it yet on anything other than coyotes.
I primarily shoot 80 grain for hunting and 60 grain for targets.

In the 80 grain I am about 300ft/sec slower
In the 60 grain I am about 500ft/sec slower.

I am hesitant to use it on antelope or mule deer. We really don't have whitetail deer here. I guess I am hesitant because I also have a 243 that I use on those.

[320pf]

Here is a photo of the 6.35x43mm wildcat. It is basically a 223 Rem necked up to 25 cal and shortened (~2mm) from 45mm to 43mm. I had to shorten the case a bit so when the bullets are seated deep enough to fit in an AR15 mag. the case mouth does not ride up too far on the bullet ogive.

CH-4D had a set of 25-223 dies in stock so I was able to put together several dummy rounds and see how they fit in an Ar15 mag. Others have had reamers made for this wildcat so the reamer drawing only have to be modified to accommodate the throat and lead. Kurtz gave me some suggestions and for throat and lead dimensions... The drawing is pretty much finalized, so on Monday the drawing and dummy rounds go off to PTG.... Hopefully, in about 4-6 weeks I get my reamer.



The reloading data for the 257 Kimber listed below should give one an idea of the velocity potential. I am going to build a 20" barrel for this cartridge so I expect to get velocities about 75 to 100 fps slower than those listed below.

257 Kimber (a.k.a. Copperhead) Barrel Length: 22"
Bullet--------Powder---- Grs.------Vel. (ft/s) Grs. Vel. (ft/s)
75GR. HDY HP---H335------28.0------2769---------31.5------3195
75GR. HDY HP---H4895-----28.0------2756---------31.5------3192
75GR. HDY HP---H322------28.0------2806---------31.5------3198
87GR. HDY SP---H335------29.0------2870---------31.0------3030
87GR. HDY SP---H4895-----29.0------2824---------31.0------3056
87GR. HDY SP---H322------25.0------2604---------28.0------2868
100GR. HDY SP--H4895-----26.0------2527---------28.0------2760



From Left to RIght.Black Hills 69g 223, 100g Sierra MK, 6.35x43mm w/100g Sierra MK, 100g Sierra GK, 6.35x43mm w/100g Sierra GK, 75g Hornady V-Max, 6.35x43mm w/75g Hornady V-Max, 85g Nosler Ballistic Tip, 6.35x43mm w/85g Nosler BT, 100g Sierra Pro-Hunter, 6.35x43mm w/100g Sierra Pro-Hunter, unloaded 6.35x43mm case, and Black Hills 77g 223.

Thanks for your time,

320pf

Well I finally got my 6.35.43mm (257/223) project together. Here are some early results:

Load Data: (standard disclaimer as with any wild-cat, use at own risk and work up slow)

100 gr Speer SPBT (16 inch 1:10 twist barrel)

23.0gr H4895 = 2294 fps
23.5gr H4895 = 2336 fps
24.0gr H4895 = 2350 fps
24.5gr H4895 = 2400 fps
25.0gr H4895 = 2463 fps
25.5gr H4895 = 2505 fps

75 gr Hornaday V-Max (16 inch 1:10 twist barrel

25.5gr H4895 = 2560 fps
26.0gr H4895 = 2600 fps
26.5gr H4895 = 2678 fps
27.0gr H4895 = 2728 fps
27.5gr H4895 = 2803 fps

I think that H4895 is a bit too slow of a powder for this cartridge. Also there is no way that I can get anything close to the amount of powder in this cartridge as that listed for the 257 Kimber. I have some IMR 3031 around to try but from the data posted by Kurtz on his 25/40mm I think that 1680 may be the best powder.

We will find out.


320pf

[320pf]

I had a chance to try loading(W748 in the 25-223AR*
*.223 parent brass opened up to .25-cal; shortened to 43mm; maintains .223 body taper, same body shoulder junction height, does't require fire-forming.


Load Data: (standard disclaimer as with any wild-cat, use at own risk and work up slow) Note: The powder was loaded into the case using an eight drop tube. This facilitated a more dense/compact powder column.

100 gr Speer SPBT (16-inch barrel)

25.5gr W748 = 2350 fps
26.0gr W748 = 2411 fps
26.5gr W748 = 2435 fps
27.0gr W748 = 2475 fps
27.5gr W748 = 2510 fps
28.5gr W748 = 2548 fps

No signs of high pressure. Am interesting phenomena occurred with this load. The ejected brass was was cool to the touch. The barrel was was only mildly warm after each five shot string. SO this powder must burn pretty cool. There was NO powder residue in the barrel after each shot so W748 must also burn fairly clean. In addition, all 30 round from this test grouped within 3-inches over the 200 fps velocity spread. I was not trying to shoot for groups.


I used the published loads for BL-C(2) in the 6x45mm found the Hodgdon reloading manual for a starting reference. The Hodgdon web site shows that W748 is ranked at 82 and Hodgdon BL-C(2) is ranked at 83 on their burn rate chart.

For example Hodgdon lists:

6x45mm
85 gr SPR SP BL-C(2) (24" barrel)
Start: 25.5gr.-2566 fps; Max: 27.5gr.-2811 fps

90 gr SPR SP BL-C(2) (24" barrel)
Start: 25.05gr.-2523 fps; Max: 27.0gr.-2744 fps

100 gr HDY SP BL-C(2) (24" barrel)
Start: 24.5gr.-2404 fps; Max: 26.5gr.-2619 fps

320pf


Well I finally got my 6.35.43mm (257/223) project together. Here are some early results:

Load Data: (standard disclaimer as with any wild-cat, use at own risk and work up slow)

100 gr Speer SPBT (16 inch 1:10 twist barrel)

23.0gr H4895 = 2294 fps
23.5gr H4895 = 2336 fps
24.0gr H4895 = 2350 fps
24.5gr H4895 = 2400 fps
25.0gr H4895 = 2463 fps
25.5gr H4895 = 2505 fps

75 gr Hornaday V-Max (16 inch 1:10 twist barrel

25.5gr H4895 = 2560 fps
26.0gr H4895 = 2600 fps
26.5gr H4895 = 2678 fps
27.0gr H4895 = 2728 fps
27.5gr H4895 = 2803 fps

I think that H4895 is a bit too slow of a powder for this cartridge. Also there is no way that I can get anything close to the amount of powder in this cartridge as that listed for the 257 Kimber. I have some IMR 3031 around to try but from the data posted by Kurtz on his 25/40mm I think that 1680 may be the best powder.

We will find out.


320pf

[320pf]

UPDATE: 6.35.43mm (257/223) project

I am running the gun with the gas port turned off to see how it runs before I the port in. Here are some new results.

Load Data: (standard disclaimer as with any wild-cat, use at own risk and work up slow)

75 gr Hornaday V-Max (16-inch barrel)
for starting load reduce powder charge by 5%
21.9gr IMR4227 = 3020 fps
Primers were round and brass look good.

87 gr Speer TNT (16-inch barrel)
for starting load reduce powder charge by 5%
21.9gr IMR4227 = 2840 fps
Primers just starting to flatten edges and brass look good. For my rifle, I would reduce this load by 0.2 to 0.5gr for general use.

These results seem to confirm that H4895 and W748 powders are too slow for this caliber at this barrel length.

320pf

I had a chance to try loading(W748 in the 25-223AR*
*.223 parent brass opened up to .25-cal; shortened to 43mm; maintains .223 body taper, same body shoulder junction height, does't require fire-forming.


Load Data: (standard disclaimer as with any wild-cat, use at own risk and work up slow) Note: The powder was loaded into the case using an eight drop tube. This facilitated a more dense/compact powder column.

100 gr Speer SPBT (16-inch barrel)

25.5gr W748 = 2350 fps
26.0gr W748 = 2411 fps
26.5gr W748 = 2435 fps
27.0gr W748 = 2475 fps
27.5gr W748 = 2510 fps
28.5gr W748 = 2548 fps

No signs of high pressure. Am interesting phenomena occurred with this load. The ejected brass was was cool to the touch. The barrel was was only mildly warm after each five shot string. SO this powder must burn pretty cool. There was NO powder residue in the barrel after each shot so W748 must also burn fairly clean. In addition, all 30 round from this test grouped within 3-inches over the 200 fps velocity spread. I was not trying to shoot for groups.


I used the published loads for BL-C(2) in the 6x45mm found the Hodgdon reloading manual for a starting reference. The Hodgdon web site shows that W748 is ranked at 82 and Hodgdon BL-C(2) is ranked at 83 on their burn rate chart.

For example Hodgdon lists:

6x45mm
85 gr SPR SP BL-C(2) (24" barrel)
Start: 25.5gr.-2566 fps; Max: 27.5gr.-2811 fps

90 gr SPR SP BL-C(2) (24" barrel)
Start: 25.05gr.-2523 fps; Max: 27.0gr.-2744 fps

100 gr HDY SP BL-C(2) (24" barrel)
Start: 24.5gr.-2404 fps; Max: 26.5gr.-2619 fps

320pf

[320pf]

I have more load data for this wildcat.

I am running the gun with the gas port turned off to see how it runs before I the port in. Here are some new results.

Load Data: (standard disclaimer as with any wild-cat, use at own risk and work up slow)

IMR4198 Speer 87g Hot-Cor Spitzer SP
Load =vel (fps)
20.0 2495
20.5 2531
21.0 2585
21.5 2663
22.0 2704

The Powley pressure calculator (found here: http://kwk.us/powley.html) indicates that the 22.0 g load is generating about 50000 CUP. One might be able to get another 50 fps out of this load.

320pf

UPDATE: 6.35.43mm (257/223) project

I am running the gun with the gas port turned off to see how it runs before I the port in. Here are some new results.

Load Data: (standard disclaimer as with any wild-cat, use at own risk and work up slow)

75 gr Hornaday V-Max (16-inch barrel)
for starting load reduce powder charge by 5%
21.9gr IMR4227 = 3020 fps
Primers were round and brass look good.

87 gr Speer TNT (16-inch barrel)
for starting load reduce powder charge by 5%
21.9gr IMR4227 = 2840 fps
Primers just starting to flatten edges and brass look good. For my rifle, I would reduce this load by 0.2 to 0.5gr for general use.

These results seem to confirm that H4895 and W748 powders are too slow for this caliber at this barrel length.

320pf

[Bigfoot]

Nice work.

I bought a SU-16A last year, the barrel screws in and headspaces like a Savage. So with just the purchase of a barrel I could take this 5lb rifle blacktail hunting. 80 gr TTSX at 2900 or better?

Thanks for sharing.

[320pf]

Nice work.

I bought a SU-16A last year, the barrel screws in and headspaces like a Savage. So with just the purchase of a barrel I could take this 5lb rifle blacktail hunting. 80 gr TTSX at 2900 or better?

Thanks for sharing.

I am not exactly sure how the SU-16A barrel attaches and headspaces. However, I can tell you that the 25-223 uses standard 223 REM/5.56 NATO headspace gauges and a standard 223 REM/5.56 NATO bolt. So I would think that a 25-223 barrel should work just the the 223 REM/5.56 NATO barrel that comes with the SU-16A

I hope this helps

320pf

[320pf]

A few folks are getting early Xmas presents. Here are the three main barrel lengths that people are going with in this wildcat cartridge, 16, 18, and 20 inch. I hope we will see some range results with the next month or so.

320pf

[VaFish]

Sorry for the crappy cell phone pic,

But here is what the 16" barrel looks like installed:
http://i109.photobucket.com/albums/n75/vafish/Guns/09-20-10_222308.jpg

My first quarterbore rifle!!!

Now if my reloading components would get here. :uzi2:





Edit by mod to resize big pic
http://i155.photobucket.com/albums/s294/russell_smith93/09-20-10_222308.jpg

[SgtCottle]

I like the silver trigger look ... who makes it?

[VaFish]

I like the silver trigger look ... who makes it?

It's a stainless steel fire control group. Got it a while back I think I ordered it through R-Guns.

[320pf]

Here is more load data for the 25-223Ar. I had a chance to try Hodgdon H335 today. It seems to be the best powder I have tried so far.

Load Data: (standard disclaimer as with any wild-cat, use at own risk and work up slow)

Hodgdon H335, Speer 100 gr SPBT (16 inch 1:10 twist barrel)
Charge
wt.(g)-------vel. (fps)
24.8---------2460
25.7---------2560
25.9---------2581
26.1---------2604
26.5---------2624

I hope this helps

320pf

I have more load data for this wildcat.

I am running the gun with the gas port turned off to see how it runs before I the port in. Here are some new results.

Load Data: (standard disclaimer as with any wild-cat, use at own risk and work up slow)

IMR4198 Speer 87g Hot-Cor Spitzer SP
Load =vel (fps)
20.0--2495
20.5--2531
21.0--2585
21.5--2663
22.0--2704

The Powley pressure calculator (found here: http://kwk.us/powley.html) indicates that the 22.0 g load is generating about 50000 CUP. One might be able to get another 50 fps out of this load.

320pf

[320pf]

Here are some more load data for the 25-223AR (6.35x43mm)

Load Data: (standard disclaimer as with any wild-cat, use at own risk and work up slow)

75g Hornaday VMAX seated to 2.255 COL. (16 inch 1:10 twist barrel)
Charge Reloader-7
wt.(g)–––vel. (fps)
25.0––––2890
25.5––––2940
26.0––––3000
26.5––––3016––-velocity curve flattening out...Over Max load??
27.0––––3079 OVER MAX

I hope this helps

320pf

Here is more load data for the 25-223Ar. I had a chance to try Hodgdon H335 today. It seems to be the best powder I have tried so far.

Load Data: (standard disclaimer as with any wild-cat, use at own risk and work up slow)

Hodgdon H335, Speer 100 gr SPBT (16 inch 1:10 twist barrel)
Charge
wt.(g)-------vel. (fps)
24.8---------2460
25.7---------2560
25.9---------2581
26.1---------2604
26.5---------2624

I hope this helps

320pf

[320pf]

I had a chance to try a new powder today before is got too dark for the chrongrapah.

Load Data: (standard disclaimer as with any wild-cat, use at own risk and work up slow)

100 gr Speer SPBT (16 inch 1:10 twist barrel) seated to 2.255 COL. (16 inch 1:10 twist barrel)
Charge Hodgdon Benchmark
wt.(g)–––vel. (fps)
23.8––––2364
24.5––––2411
25.1––––2494 small velocity deviation +/- 5 fps for 3 shot string
25.5––––2518 small velocity deviation +/- 2 fps for 3 shot string

Benchmark does not necessarily give the maximum velocities, but the velocity increase with charge increase is very well correlated with this powder.

320pf


Here are some more load data for the 25-223AR (6.35x43mm)

Load Data: (standard disclaimer as with any wild-cat, use at own risk and work up slow)

75g Hornaday VMAX seated to 2.255 COL. (16 inch 1:10 twist barrel)
Charge Reloader-7
wt.(g)–––vel. (fps)
25.0––––2890
25.5––––2940
26.0––––3000
26.5––––3016––-velocity curve flattening out...Over Max load??
27.0––––3079 OVER MAX

I hope this helps

320pf

[VaFish]

I have some problems with a stuck case in my resizing die. Got a stuck case removal kit on the way from CH4D.

Anyhow I did have 30 rounds loaded up. Took it to the range today.

Load was 26.0 grs H335, Remington cases, CCI 400 small rifle primers with a 90 gr Sierra Game Point.

Used a few rounds to get the gun sighted in and fired 7 shots over a buddy's Chrony Alpha ans the sun was starting to set.

Speeds were 2606, 2604, 2594, 2589, 2579, 2606, and 2570. The online SD Calculator I used says that's a SD of 14 FPS.

5 shot group at 100 yards was about 1 1/2" with 3 shots touching and another 2 shots touching about an inch and a half away. I only loaded 3 shots in the mag and then decided to shoot a 5 shot group and loaded 2 more shots before looking through the scope, so I don't know if my movement caused me to shoot 2 separate groups or if that's what the group is.

Gun functioned just fine with the gas port as 320pf shipped it. I even put it on a different lower with an A2 stock and shot a few rounds and they functioned fine as well.


When I get the stuck case out I'll play with it some more.

I do have 100 prepped cases so I should be able to load up some more even if I have to send the dies back to CH4D.