Bolt Rifle Action

[steezo757]

So I'm almost finished with my .300 Whisper/Fireball AR. I like the round so much that I'm planning on doing a .300 Whisper/Fireball bolt gun. Besides my .22lr, I have no experience with bolt action rifles.

What should I look for when searching for an action? I'm thinking on a Savage or a Remington. Since the barrel and the stock are going to be immediately replaced, I'm assuming I shouldn't start with the top of the line Variminter rifle with bull barrel, etc. Will an action of the lower priced rifles do the job? Is there any difference between the actions of the lower and higher priced rifles?

[m21black]

I had a whisper built on a CZ action but the Reminton 700 would be a nice option... Starting with a varmint model with a HS Precision stock would be real nice...

[DonT]

I have built one on a savage action and actually done barrel change outs on at least 3 or 4 others and would highly recommend the Savage rifle as a platform for the following reasons:
1. With a little care and limited tools it is realitively easy to change calibers
on the savage due to the barrel nut.
2. Tools required are relatively inexpensive (under $100 total usually).
3. Allows you to go back and forth between the new barrel and old barrel
with as little as a 1/2 hour of invested time.
4. It come, go with the accutrigger, with an excellent adjustable trigger for
most work.

I would probably go with the something like the 12bvss in a caliber I like to shoot, for me .223 or .308 and then change out the barrel to .300 whisper. If you go .223 you are good to go, with the .308 you will need an additional bolt head which is no biggy. This gives you a good quality laminiated stock that is pillar bedded for the action along with a nice trigger right out of the gate. I have built these up using the cheaper models of Savage Rifles and find that once you have had to shell out for a decent stock you are right back were you were with the 12bvss price wise. I am not sure you will find much difference in the actions themselves.

The nice thing with doing the above is that if you decide the .300 is not your thing you can reinstall the old barrel and sell the .300 barrel, or if you find you will never use the old barrel the target fluted barrels are pretty easy to sell. Finally if you find you don't like the .300 or the old caliber you can pick up a barrel in any caliber that uses the short action, change the bolt head and for a few hundred dollars have a complete rifle.

One final thought, if you are into single shots to get the most out of accuracy and action stiffness Savage has a model that will fit your needs, I am just not sure what the model number is but it is slick.

Just one old guys opinion...

DonT:grin:

[steezo757]

I've read that CZs are great rifles too.

Please let me expand on my lack of knowlegde with bolt rifles.

DonT, am I understanding you correctly? I can buy a Savage .308 rifle, use the stock and action as a host for other calibers. Of course the .300 Whisper/Fireball round, but could I also use a .223 barrel using the proper bolt face in the .308 host?

And when I want to change out barrels, simply undo the barrel nut and install another barrel? (That's what I used to do with my ARs until I went with the MGI setup :wink: ). Don't the Savage models have internal magazines? Will the .308 internal magazine need to be swapped out as well?

[m21black]

The Savage does afford you the ability to change barrels and it is as strong as all hell... but my way of thinking is you put a barrel on a rifle and set it up with mounts and a scope and you shoot it... wouldn't think of changing the barrel and my guess is that once you build a whisper on a bolt gun you won't have any notion changing barrels... if I wanted another caliber rifle I'd buy or build another rifle before changing barrels on the action. If you want to swap barrels go with a TC Contender G2 or and Encore. My G2 with a SSK Whisper barrel shoots sub moa at a 100 yards.

[DonT]

Steezo757,

To answer you questions:
DonT, am I understanding you correctly? I can buy a Savage .308 rifle, use the stock and action as a host for other calibers. Of course the .300 Whisper/Fireball round, but could I also use a .223 barrel using the proper bolt face in the .308 host?Yup that is pretty much it. You might need to add a .223 folower (about $10) and as you said the bolt head.

And when I want to change out barrels, simply undo the barrel nut and install another barrel? (That's what I used to do with my ARs until I went with the MGI setup ). Don't the Savage models have internal magazines? Will the .308 internal magazine need to be swapped out as well?It isn't quite as easy as the MGI (had one and it don't get any easier than that) but it isn't too hatefull either. I don't beleive there is any change needed to the mag well other than possibly the follower. All that I have done were .223 to .300 whisper. It is my understanding the short action is short action for all calibers with the exception of the bolt head, long action the same way.

M21black has a point but here here are some things to consider:
Get a qood quality scope with repeatability. Site the rifle barrel in before removing and witness mark it so you can bring it back to that point if you reinstall. When you install the whisper barrel count the clicks to zero it and write them down and put them with the other barrel. Now you have a way to get you very very close to zero when you change out the barrel again. If you had an MGI upper on your AR then I am sure you are accustom to doing this with your various calibers now.

In either case you are likely going to buy a complete rifle then convert it. With the savage vs. others you have the "option" to go back if you don't like the whisper, and some folks don't after they have made the change. With the savage the change could be done by you if you choose in less than an hours or so. BUT if you go remington, CZ or Winchester it is likely that you are going to have to take it to a gunsmith to have it done and around here that can take 3 weeks to 6 months depending on the smith.

There is no Right answer only a whole bunch of possibilities:smile:

DonT

[WhisperFan]

One thing to keep in mind is the extractor / brass issue.

If the bolt face in your action is a 221 Fireball, then 221 fireball brass resized to 300/221 will work 100% of the time in regards to extraction and ejecting.

If the bolt face in your action is a 223 Remington, then 223 brass resized to 300/221 will work 100% of the time in regards to extraction and ejecting.

If you build your Whisper with a 221 Fireball action and then use 223 brass, you will most likely experience extraction problems. The cure for these problems is a Sako-style extractor. Typically - using a 223 bolt face will work for both types of brass.

The reason for these occasional extraction problems is the geometry of the rim and extraction groove is slightly different with the two different cartridges.

[DonT]

I didn't realize that. I had always thought they were the same. Thankfully my AR's and my Savage bolt gun all digested the .223/5.56/.221 fireball made into .300 whisper (.300 fireball/.300.221) all interchangably and without a hitch.

But that is something to file away for future reference should an extraction issue pop up in the future...

DonT:grin:

[steezo757]

Appreciate all the good input.

Okay...so I'm probably being a little bias on barrel choice but, I think I'm going to go with a PacNor barrel. My 10.5" AR barrel is Noveske, so I figure I'd keep the same brand. I understand that Mike Rock is prime quality, but I've read that he's a year behind. Any bad experiences with PacNor? I know Noveske/PacNor has a good reputation in the AR world.

I'm trying to get good quality and keep it somewhat economical. I like the idea of the Savage, because if anything, I can sell the stock barrel to recoup some funds. I'm leaning towards the Savage. The photos of the CZ and 700 that someone e-mailed me look awesome. So many damn choices to be made from within my budget. But at the moment, I'm thinking Savage and PacNor. Probably the .223 Savage, I still want the option of changing barrels.

A pre-fitted barrel from PacNor is all I need, right? PacNor's website states, "The prefit barrel comes to you with a short thread shank to be set back for proper head space" <http://www.pac-nor.com/prefit/>. Does this apply to the Savage rifle as well?

As for brass I have some .221 Fireball and have started reforming PMC .223. I chose PMC because the final brass thickness at the neck (of the reformed brass) is the closest to the reformed .221 Fireball at even to a .001th larger.

[DonT]

Personally I would pick up the phone and call Pacnor and talk to them. Everything I have read on the boards says they are good people to deal with.

I got my last barrel from Spook on this board. Not sure if he is still doing them or not but turn around time was weeks not months and the workmanship was top notch. Just put a post out there for him to contact you. My experience with him was very positive and barrel was outstanding.

Like I said there are many many choices when it comes to the whisper so have fun and enjoy.....

DonT:tongue:

[steezo757]

Thanks for all the help.

[m21black]

I have seen several 308 1:8 barrels at various threads, I think that there was a Rock barrel setup for a savage action on snipershide last week. The best way to findout about lead time is to make a call. Sometimes you can luck out and find one in stock. Don't forget about the TC Contender option with a SSK barrel.

Glad to hear you enjoyed my pictures...

[WhisperFan]

My whisper host gun was a 700 Remington in .223

I went through PacNor for my barrel. Since I have enough rifles that shoot super-sonic, I decided to build my Whisper as a dedicated sub-sonic rifle - to that end, I went with a 1-in-7 twist to accomodate 220 grain and 240 grain SMK's

I'm not sorry I did.

I do not hesitate to recommend PacNor

[m21black]

all of my whispers are 1:8 twist... I have never shot it beyond 200 yards but they have no problem stabilizing the 240 SMK's. I'd bet the 1:7 is a tack driver. Can you share any additional info? have you shot any smaller heads?

[Gpz1100]

I'm building my bolt on a Savage 12-BVSS single shot reciever. Picked it up less the .223 barrel for 325. Just like new condition. Waiting on a Pac Nor barrel, it should ship this month. As for the extractor problem, there are some specs floating around on the web that describe in detail how to modify the extractor to work properly.
I went Savage for all the reasons DonT mentioned + the fact they now make one of the most accurate 'out of the box' rifles around. Because it's easy to change barrels, there are cheap take-offs available if you want, for whatever reason.

Are you going to use a can?
I'm waiting on ATF so I can pick up an AAC Cyclone
:smile:

[m21black]

Good choice on the can... The AAC Cyclone does a great job with my whisper at an affordable price.

[steezo757]

I'm building my bolt on a Savage 12-BVSS single shot reciever. Picked it up less the .223 barrel for 325. Just like new condition. Waiting on a Pac Nor barrel, it should ship this month. As for the extractor problem, there are some specs floating around on the web that describe in detail how to modify the extractor to work properly.
I went Savage for all the reasons DonT mentioned + the fact they now make one of the most accurate 'out of the box' rifles around. Because it's easy to change barrels, there are cheap take-offs available if you want, for whatever reason.

Are you going to use a can?
I'm waiting on ATF so I can pick up an AAC Cyclone
:smile:

But of course. I went with a 7.62mm SAS (Suppressed Armament Systems). He's a smaller guy in business but there are good reviews on his suppressors and service. His prices are great, and he was the only one willing to make two flashhider mounts with 5/8-24 and 1/2-36 (for my 7.62x39 AR) threads.

I'm currently waiting Form 4 approval too. My check was cash Oct. 29 and I still haven't went pending yet :mad: . My last Form 4, the month before, took 30 days door to door.

Since he does custom work, I sent him this e-mail below. I'm still awaiting a response. I've read the pressures are the same. I'll start another thread to see what everyone thinks.



Well, I have thought of another project. I recently became addicted to the .300 Whisper/Fireball round and currently have a Noveske 10.5 barrel awaiting my 7.62 can Form 4 to come through. The only disadvantage of using a 7.62 can is the weight. From what I've read, the pressures of the subsonic Whisper round is similiar to that of the 9mm. So here's my thought:

A can almost identical to your 9mm can except for a slightly smaller bore and setup to mount onto the flashhiders that I already have. I would probably need 2 more flash hider mounts (for a .300 Whisper Contender and a bolt rifle).

What do you think?
Sound possible?
What do your 9mm cans currently weight and what's the length?
How much weight would stainless baffles add? Or maybe just the first baffle be stainless?
Would an extra baffle provide additional suppression?

Let me know if you have any suggestions. And if you could, provide a ballpark figure on how much this will run me...