what powders are you using?

[320pf]

The subject of this thread is the powders that work well in the 300-221 Fireball aka 300 Whispler. I have reloaded the following powders

Hodgdon Lil-Gun
Hodgdon H-110
Alliant Reloader 7
Accurate Arms #9
Hodgdon H4227
Winchester 296

For super sonic loads, I have found W296 to produce the tightest groups (<1.0-inch at 100 yrds) and pretty good velocities. I consistently get the top velocities with Hodgdon Lil'Gun but the groups tend to run ~1.0-inch at 100 yrds. I get the best groups (<0.7-inch at 100 yrds)with AA#9 but the velocities are only modest.

For sub-sonic loads, I have found AA#9 to be one of the best... tight groups and very consistent velocities even with pretty large temp. changes.

I would like to try the following powders

Alliant 2400
vihtavuori N-110
Accurate 1680

I would like to hear about peoples experience with these as well as other powders including the one I have listed.

My reloading data is posted here:

http://reloadersnest.com/frontpage.asp?CaliberID=135

The loads listed under "Not yet verified user loads" are the one that I have shot with the exception of loads#:
2973
2974
3299
3577

Most of thse loads were shot and chronographed at an indoor range so the temps at the tme were 70 F +/- 3. The elevation here is ~240 ft.

320pf

[kurtz]

I have worked up a few suppressed subsonic loads for a SSK 16" 1:8 AR-15 and SSK 16" 1:8 CZ 527 using H110

The H110 subsonic loads in either rifle usually produce 3/4 MOA groups.
bolt gun 8.5gr H110 1060fps avg. 220SMK
AR-15 9.6gr H110 1060fps avg. 220SMK

I have also worked up several supersonic loads for a 24" 1:11 CZ 527 using
H110, A1680, and IMR3031...All produce sub MOA groups, max loads listed don't show signs of high pressure, may still have a little room left for velocity increase....A1680 seems to be less temp sensitive compared to H110....the H110 has as much as 100fps difference from 50 to 90 degrees

H110 16.8gr 2125fps 125TNT
H110 17.0gr 2200fps 125TNT
H110 18.0gr 2340fps 125TNT
H110 18.5gr 2410fps 125TNT most accurate 1/4 MOA
H110 19.0gr 2450fps 125TNT
H110 18.0gr 2430fps 110VMAX
H110 18.5gr 2520fps 110VMAX most accurate 1/4 MOA
H110 19.0gr 2560fps 110VMAX
H110 20.0gr 2675fps 110VMAX

A1680 16.3gr 1760fps 125TNT
A1680 18.0gr 2010fps 125TNT
A1680 18.5gr 2090fps 125TNT
A1680 19.0gr 2150fps 125TNT
A1680 20.0gr 2260fps 125TNT most accurate 1/4 MOA

IMR3031 17.0gr 1380fps 125TNT comparison load for future 300 whisper XL project

I would like to try the lil-gun and H4227, hopefully in the next couple weeks.

load velocity checked with a BetaChrony most at 70 to 80 degrees, 6+ sea-level, 70 to 80 % humidity.....

kurtz

[Cornholio]

I have used VVN340, Power Pistol, Titegroup, 2400, and AA9.

Best accuracy with both sub and supersonic loads have been with 2400 and AA9.

[pug]

I have used

N320
N330
N110
2400
Trail Boss
AA9
H110
H322
2015
W296
LilGun
AA1680

In no particular order. Since I am interested in AR application the fast pistol powders faster than 2400 were just a test and don't cycle the action. The slower powders starting with 1680 seem to drop velocity so I stopped going slower. LilGun and H110 provided the highest velocity in the loads tested while N110 gave the lowest deviations in the loads tested but with marked lower velocity.

[charles357]

Anyone shooting subsonic loads need to try Accura 5744. The powder is the least position sensitive of any powder I have used. I put 10.7 grains behind Sierra 220gr. Sierra match bthp. This load has killed many deer. I have set up guns for local game management personnel and they have all been pleased with results. Shooting in hot summer I have found I need to drop load .5-1.0 grains because about 20% of loaded ammo cracks. I have used 240 gr. Sierra but the accuracy was not as good, but since I have a bunch of these bullets I am going back and try them again.

[320pf]

I had a chance to re-shoot some of my loads in a 20-inch barrel so here is the comparison of a 16-inch and 20-inch barrel. It is a different barrel so there are other variables beside barrel length in play such as chamber and throat dimension etc...

20-inch barrel
H110 20.0 gr 2428 ± 26 fps 125TNT loose primer pockets

16-inch barrel
H110 20.0 gr 2332 ± 28 fps 125TNT blew one primer while shooting the string

difference = 96 fps

20-inch barrel
**Lil'Gun 18.5 gr 2117 ± 29 fps 155 Sierra Palma
Lil'Gun 19.0 gr 2147 ± 29 fps 155 Sierra Palma

16-inch barrel
Lil'Gun 18.0 gr 2031 ± 17 fps 155 Sierra Palma
**Lil'Gun 18.5 gr 2086 ± -- fps 155 Sierra Palma 2nd round blew primer

difference = 31 fps

The 20-inch barrel seems to be able to handle hotter loads. It might be that it has slightly more freebore than the 16-inch barrel.

320pf

[320pf]

I went to the range today to test some new reloads in the 20-inch barrel. All I can say is WOW. If you are looking for maximum velocities Hodgdon Lil'Gun is the powder to consider. Here are my results:


WARNING: THESE ARE MAX. LOADS AND ARE OLNY SAFE IN THE PARTICULAR BARREL/GUN THAT THEY WERE SHOT IN.

20-inch barrel (temp. 87 F) C.O.L 2.197
Lil'Gun 18.0 gr 2011 ± 19 fps 155 Sierra Palma
Lil'Gun 18.5 gr 2023 ± 16 fps 155 Sierra Palma
Lil'Gun 19.0 gr 2066 ± 35 fps 155 Sierra Palma
Lil'Gun 19.5 gr 2097 ± 40 fps 155 Sierra Palma
Lil'Gun 20.0 gr 2154 ± 34 fps 155 Sierra Palma
All of the primers had nice round corners and all rounds extracted without problems. The loads with the larger Stdev. all had one round run high or low relative to the other four.

20-inch barrel (temp. 87 F) C.O.L 2.197
Lil'Gun 19.5 gr 2105 ± 40 fps 150 Sierra*
Lil'Gun 20.0 gr 2153 ± 63 fps 150 Sierra
*This load had two low velocity fliers. Here is the string:
2058
2151
2163
5135
2019
All of the primers had nice round corners and all rounds extracted without problems.

320pf

[kurtz]

Hi 320pf,

great info, I have not had a chance to use the lil'gun gun yet but your results look great....

I went to the range today to test some A1680 under 150 sierra SPFB...here are the results in the 24" 1:11 300-221

18.0gr A1680 150SP 1945fps
18.5gr A1680 150SP 1995fps
19.0gr A1680 150SP 2045fps
19.5gr A1680 150SP 2075fps

still look to have a little room in the case and pressure signs look good, round primer edges, no extruding around firing pin strike, bolt lifts easy....

Accuracy with all of the above loads was MOA in about a 10mph steady wind from my 6.....

Your Lil'gun loads look great in your 20".....hows the case capacity at 20gr?.....

kurtz

[320pf]

Kurtz,

Lil'Gun is a coarse doublebased flattened ball powder. It is courser than H100, so I would say that 20 gr of Lil'Gun is about all of this powder that you can get into the case.

AA#1680 also looks intresting to me. If I am remembering correctly, isn't 1680 a doublebase ball powder as well? How does the grain size of the powder compare to H110?

The velocities that you are getting look very intresting... and you say that you can get a bit more powder into the case... Hmmmm! Darn, I guess that I will have to get some and give it a try :smile:

320pf

[kurtz]

320pf,

The grain size of A1680 is tiny bit more coarse than H110...in supersonic loads I actually prefer to use A1680 in the longer barreled rifle over H110, to me it's easier to handle, it doesn't stick to everything like H110, more temp stable, low velocity spread, no pressure problems....thinking it may work well in the 300XL.....It looks like about 21.2 to 21.3 grains of A1680 can be charged in the 300-221 without compressing with the 150SPFB....the 150BT and 155BT are a bit longer so I would guess they would be compressed with the boat tails....

didn't get to shoot anything this weekend, daughter and friends wanted to jet-ski, so nothing to report from the range, but the water was cool and the burgers were good......job hunting next week so probably won't get to shoot for a while....

kurtz

[320pf]

Anyone shooting subsonic loads need to try Accura 5744. The powder is the least position sensitive of any powder I have used. I put 10.7 grains behind Sierra 220gr. Sierra match bthp. This load has killed many deer. I have set up guns for local game management personnel and they have all been pleased with results. Shooting in hot summer I have found I need to drop load .5-1.0 grains because about 20% of loaded ammo cracks. I have used 240 gr. Sierra but the accuracy was not as good, but since I have a bunch of these bullets I am going back and try them again.

Charles357,

Thank for the heads up on AA#5744. I have shot AA#9 and I really like the powder. With AA#9 the velocities almost always have small standard deviations and the loads usually shoot tight groups. So I would like a bit more information on AA#5744. I am seriously thinking about trying it.

Since this is not one of the usual 300-221 Fireball powders can you tell a bit about it? For example is it a single base, ball or flake, and how course are the grains say compared to H110 or W296

Have you tried AA#5744 for super sonic loads.

Thanks,

320pf

P.S. you might want to try AA#9 with those 240 gr Sierra's if you can not get that particular bullet to work with AA#5744

[kurtz]

went to the range today to shoot a couple loads.....24" 1:11 CZ527

H110 20gr Sierra 110gr HP 2650fps
H110 20gr Speer 125gr TNT 2520fps
H110 20gr Hornady 110gr VMAX 2670fps

IMR3031 18gr Hornady 110gr VMAX 1550fps (just a comparison load)

no signs of high pressure, bolt lifts easy, primer looks good.....

83 degrees, 80 % humidity, sea-level +6......

kurtz

[320pf]

Kurtz,

Intresting data! I have load data for H110 and Speer TNT from both a 16-inch and 20-inch AR platform:

300-221 fireball AR15 16-inch 1:8 twist
1) H110 20gr Speer 125gr TNT 2290fps*
2) H110 20gr Speer 125gr TNT 2332fps**

300-221 fireball AR15 20-inch 1:10 twist
1) H110 20gr Speer 125gr TNT 2420fps (~75-80 deg F)

* these data were obtained in Feb-07 at an indoor range temp 60-65 deg F
** these data were obtained in May-07 at an outdoor range temp 70-75 deg F

16-inch = ~2300fps
20-inch = ~2400fps
24-inch = ~2500fps

With the caveat that these data are from different barrels and different actions obtained under different weather conditions; It looks like there is an increase of ~20-25fps/inch of barrel. This is a bit more than I would have expected, but not too crazy.

I could not fit much more powder (H110) into the cases. Different bullets and powders might give you a bit more or less but unless some new wonder powder comes along, I would say that for 125gr bullets... this is about the most one can get from the 300-221 Fireball.

What do you think?

320pf

[lemmethink]

Sorry I don't have all the details but I started shooting the 300/221 last winter when I lived in Alaska. I was using 2400, velocities of various loads were somewhere in the range of 900 and 1150fps with a SMK 220gr. It was quite cold, 15F degrees. I was amazed at how each different load would move up or down vertically but would group 10 shots in less than 3/4 inch at 100yds.

Since then I have moved to Nevada and with the 2400 at 95F to 100+F degrees I get lots of variation in velocities resulting in some big vertically stringing groups. I'm talking maybe up to 8 inches and more from top to bottom.

I started working on some loads using AA#9 and my groups have tightened up nicely. If it weren't for the occasional flyer the AA#9 groups at desert temps would be just about as good as the 2400 at cold temps. I am still trying to sort out the flyer issue but I am much happier under these conditions using the AA#9.

Anyone else notice big changes with temperature, or better yet not notice much change at all with a particular powder?

Regards-
David

[kurtz]

320pf

I think the 20 to 25fps per inch of barrel is right on the mark.....I have an old old old article from a guns and ammo or sports afield or something concerning barrel length....the test started out with a .30-06 and 400 rounds of ammo...they cut the barrel off in one inch increments down to 10 inches (article was probably done way before NFA SBR laws)....for each inch of barrel removed they would shoot 20 rounds of ammo and take the average....don't remember what method they used to chrony the rounds....the published info showed an average of 20 fps difference per inch....neat old article....

I agree that 20gr of H110 is pretty close to max volume in the 300-221....I wanted to make sure I didn't have any pressure problems with the 125's at 20gr then I was going to creep the powder level up into the neck a little more, maybe 20.2 or 20.3 grains....but I'm not sure if the little bit of velocity increase would out-weigh the possible pressure problems....2500fps was really the target velocity I was trying for with the 125's and I hit it with 20gr of H110....



lemmethink

I have not had a chance to use AA#9 yet but it is on my short list of powders to try, I know other members have had really good luck with it....let us know how it goes....

The Accurate 1680 seems to be pretty temp stable in my super- sonic loads (40 to 90 degrees) but the velocity is a little lower than say H110...

[gary0529]

Does anyone have any additional information re: Accurate Arms powders for the 300 Whisper?
I have been loading AA #7 @ 7.8 gr. w/ 220 gr.Sierra HPBT Match bullets and the accuracy is spotty, always seems to be a flier or two in a 5 shot grouping. These chrono at 1025 +/- 15 fps at 82 degrees over an Oehler chronograph.
Gun is rock solid heavy barrel(Lilja) 1:8 twist, bedded and is quite capable of one hole groups with the right combo.

Have also tried IMR 4227, Blue Dot, and H-110 with less than stellar results.

Will throw this one out to the forum.
Thanks in advance.
Gary

[320pf]

Gary

Try this URL. If you going to try these loads in an ARa5, AA#5 and AA#7 are too fast and may not cycle the action.

I recently tried 8.5 gr of 2400 with good results. The velocitiy was 1040 fps ±38 fps but the groups were about 1/2 inch at 25 yrds with open/iron site... so I would guess that this load would shoot about 1 inch with a scope at 100 yrds. This load cycled the AR action... bolt stayed open on last round.

http://www.accuratepowder.com/data/PerCaliber2Guide/Handgun/Standarddata/30Cal(7.62mm)/300%20Whisper%20page%2076.pdf

320pf

[kurtz]

went to the range today to shoot a couple loads.....24" 1:11 CZ527 300-221

19.0gr Accurate 1680 Barnes 130 Triple-Shock X-Bullets 2060fps
19.5gr Accurate 1680 Barnes 130 Triple-Shock X-Bullets 2110fps

no signs of high pressure, bolt lifts easy, primer looks good.....can fit a little more in the case.....

The accuracy/grouping I have had with the Barnes bullets is OK, a little over 1 MOA, still experimenting with distance to lands....the Speer and Sierra bullets that I have used produce tighter groups to this point, less than 1/2 MOA but are 125gr....

was wanting to try the 130 X-Bullets as a 100 to 150 yard small body white tail round, any experience out there?

78 degrees, 80 % humidity, sea-level +6......

kurtz

[21contender]

has anyone tried 180-200 gr. lead bullets with trail boss powder for sub sonic loads? I have a ssk 21" contender barrel with 1-8 twist. seems like you should be able to just about fill the case with powder and still be sub sonic.

21c