LanCay Shallow Fuller? What's the verdict?

[Misfit-45]

Hello Folks,

Here is a side by side comparison of two LanCay M9s. Both are early contract (right after the Gen Cut blades. Both are hollow ground blades. Both, of course, have fullers.
The M9 in question is the lower one in the picture. It’s fuller is narrower than the one on the top and has a depth of .07 inches. The top M9 has a fuller depth of .10 inches. The books and internet say the depths should be .12 for the deep fuller and .06 for the shallow fuller.
I would suspect that an argument could be made either way as to the rarity of this particular “shallow fuller” M9.

If it is NOT the rare shallow fuller M9, it’s because the margin for error in fuller depth is +/- .06 inches. Since this “shallow fuller” is .07 inches, it falls within the margin of error for the regular issue fuller depth.

If it IS the shallow fuller, it’s because the fuller measures 1/100th of an inch off the mark for the required shallow fuller depth. Literally close enough for government work. Not to mention that my measurement could be a hundredth off as well.

You be the judge. What's the verdict? Thanks in advance.
Marv

http://i298.photobucket.com/albums/mm261/Misfit-45/IMG_0004.jpg

http://i298.photobucket.com/albums/mm261/Misfit-45/IMG_0003-2.jpg

[Oldsmithy]

I think this is more likley the extreme range of the tolerence on the full depth fuller rahter than the shallow fuller. After all the shallow fuller was put forward because th elower tolerence for it was no fuller at all.

[Mister Moon]

http://www.ebay.com/itm/U-S-LAN-CAY-BAYONET-1993-MARKED-STRAIGHT-SCREWDRIVER-END-4-SLOT-SCABBARD-NEW-/271094278241?item=271094278241&ViewItem=&ssPageName=ADME:X:RTQ:US:1123&nma=true&si=%2FgtH44DbZssbn%2B3RBzS6bjrHVQc%3D&orig_cvip=true&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2557

[Carlo]

When I saw the auction that Mr. Moon posted, I asked the seller for more pictures.
These were then added to the auction.
I had a look at them, and came to the conclusion that this was a standard fullered variation.
Assuming that the bayonet from this topic is the same of the auction, I'm not so sure anymore, but please consider that I (unfortunately) do NOT have a shallow fuller to compare directly.

Have a look at the following topics

http://www.quarterbore.net/forums/showthread.php?t=5555

http://www.quarterbore.net/forums/showthread.php?t=1928

My personal rule here is, looking at the pictures, to look at the "space" between the fuller and the "profile" in the middle of the blade (sorry, don't know the correct english word for it).
I'm borrowing the image from this topic to explain this

http://img24.imageshack.us/img24/4756/img0004pse.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/24/img0004pse.jpg/)

Definately worth to wait for the opinion from someone more expert than me.

[porterkids]

I've looked at these pictures for a very long time. I didn't respond at first because it wasn't very obvious to me, but after a considerable amount of time and comparing with other photos, I think this is more than likely a shallow fuller LanCay.

I do have some concerns about the standard fuller LanCay you picture. The blade appears to me to be a very bad factory second. Compare the back point of the cutting edge on the two bayonets you show. The one on the standard fuller is non-existant. Also, look at the area of the blade where the ricasso meets the cross guard. The shallow fuller shows what both of these areas should look like.

[Misfit-45]

Having the advantage of seeing the bayonet up close, I measured the area of Carlo's red lines. The long line is .259 inches ("shallow fuller")and the short line is .213. The actual width of the wide fuller is .40 inches and the width of the narrow fuller is .34 inches, .06 inches difference.

One thing that would indicate that this is a regular fuller is this. If you notice what looks like a gritty line of grease along one side of the fuller; that is actually where the milling bur chattered along path. It would be entirely possible that this blade was either unfinished and needed another pass of the milling bur to complete the fuller, or it was rejected outright and assembled some years later just for me.

As I am writing this, I noticed that Porterkids has weighed in.
I am quite aware of the deficiencies of the regular fullered bayonet. I figured that is was resharpened to remove some deep gouges on the edge, but a factory reject is a good suspicion.

Please comment on the milling process used on narrow fuller bayonet. Most do not looked milled, but rather forged and bead blasted. Thanks
Please comment again.

Marv

[Misfit-45]

Here's a very close up picture of the "unfinished" nature of the fuller. Almost doesn't look like the same bayonet. On the second picture, you can see where the bur dropped into the fuller and smeared metal. Now I'm not so sure that the bur ever passed through the fuller. Both ends of the fuller show this circular pattern.
Marv

http://i298.photobucket.com/albums/mm261/Misfit-45/IMG_0011.jpg

http://i298.photobucket.com/albums/mm261/Misfit-45/IMG_0014-1.jpg

[Carlo]

One thing that would indicate that this is a regular fuller is this. If you notice what looks like a gritty line of grease along one side of the fuller; that is actually where the milling bur chattered along path. It would be entirely possible that this blade was either unfinished and needed another pass of the milling bur to complete the fuller, or it was rejected outright and assembled some years later just for me.


Marv

Marv,
it would had been too difficult to "create" a shallow fuller LanCay from a standard first contract one (without fuller), plus I don't see how it could be possibile to modify a standard fuller blade into a shallow fuller one.
As far as I know there were never reports of rejected shallow fullered blades, (re)assembled later (as it happened with the General Cutlery variation).

[Mister Moon]

As " souvenir " from the Lan-Cay Cie, for see, understand, that make an M9 BAYONET it's not make a Super High Quality product as a " diamond "... See the machine-tools in these videos, and the environement.. It's not a " Laboratory " as at the GLOCK guns maker in Austria or at the FERRARI cars maker in Italia,... as example
HERE some guys who was in the Lan-Cay Cie : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4ti52ZIne18&feature=plcp

[Mister Moon]

The model 1992 that u have Misfit45 had a good end price : 360 $.
I bought these 92 model 375 $ in 2008 and 310 $ in 2009.
With the Fastex clip code 92.

http://i1102.photobucket.com/albums/g450/M9M4/BAYONET1992LanCay003.jpg

http://i1102.photobucket.com/albums/g450/M9M4/BAYONET1992LanCay004.jpg

[pwcosol]

Since I began collecting the MPBS M9, I have arrived at these conclusions about Lan-Cay M9 production:
Very little seems to have been wasted. Components that did not meet mil-spec were set aside. These were often later used in commercial production. I also surmise some found their way back to fulfill military contract quotas when Lan-Cay was granted a waiver. Other components likely went "under the radar" and were utilized when there was a rush to meet a delivery deadline (I have at least one example).

This can make it difficult to separate actual military production bayonets from those cobbled up for the commercial market. Throw in enterprising sellers whom were able to obtain raw components to assemble a "Frankenbayonet" and you have confused things even more! Fortunately some of our advanced and long-time collectors have been sorting things out over time, and have a pretty good handle on it now. This Forum has been one of the only resources where such information has been posted for the benefit of collectors.

[Misfit-45]

Mister Moon,
You mention the following:
"The model 1992 that u have Misfit45 had a good end price : 360 $.
I bought these 92 model 375 $ in 2008 and 310 $ in 2009.
With the Fastex clip code 92."

The bayonet in question is in unissued condition and the scabbard is in absolute unissued condition. The Fastex clip is dated 93.

Are you saying that this is not the shallow fuller M9 of 1993 fame?
I know it's hard to tell for sure, but you seem very sure. Just wondering.
Marv

[Misfit-45]

Sometimes the close ups are a little too close for perspective. Here's a little more realistic comparison.
Marv

http://i298.photobucket.com/albums/mm261/Misfit-45/IMG_0015-1.jpg

[Mister Moon]

My opinion about this http://www.ebay.com/itm/U-S-LAN-CAY-BAYONET-1993-MARKED-STRAIGHT-SCREWDRIVER-END-4-SLOT-SCABBARD-NEW-/271094278241?item=271094278241&ViewItem=&ssPageName=ADME:X:RTQ:US:1123&nma=true&si=%2FgtH44DbZssbn%2B3RBzS6bjrHVQc%3D&orig_cvip=true&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2557 : It is a Std. fuller... I think the ends of the fuller were milled to a 180 Deg. round,
the rest of the fuller was forged, that is why it is rough ? The other M9 is a scrap blade... amen
Just my thought.

Some years ago, when Barry Brown the Lan-Cay Cie owner was with us, he had sent me as present the same model that you have.
I exchanged this model for an M9 BLUE.

If this bayonet was the model 93 it would have reached 900 dollars with my bid.

http://i1102.photobucket.com/albums/g450/M9M4/Page17M9M4.jpg

[Carlo]

Fabrizio,
I don't want to question your opinion, but this is what I think:
1) The final price of an auction on ebay is not a verdict about the authenticity of a collectible. A genuine shallow fuller was sold for $ 91 http://www.quarterbore.net/forums/showthread.php?t=5555
2) The fact that the seller didn't even mention in the auction that this was a shallow fuller (because he/she probably didn't know anything about it), is something in favour of the authenticity. Just think about the rejected General Cutlery M9s: they were all corrected worded in the auctions (I bought myself one many years ago)
3) I think that you would need very specific machinery to modify the fuller the way you suggested: why take all the time and effort, and then sell the bayonet not even mentioning it was supposed to be something very rare?
Just my thoughts.
P.S. What is the "M9 BLUE"?

[Mister Moon]

Fabrizio,
I don't want to question your opinion, but this is what I think:
1) The final price of an auction on ebay is not a verdict about the authenticity of a collectible. RIGHT !
2) The fact that the seller didn't even mention in the auction that this was a shallow fuller (because he/she probably didn't know anything about it), is something in favour of the authenticity. Just think about the rejected General Cutlery M9s: they were all corrected worded in the auctions (I bought myself one many years ago) RIGHT !
3) I think that you would need very specific machinery to modify the fuller the way you suggested: Not inevitably !
The Lan-Cay factory was equipped well to make of numerous steel work
Just my thoughts.
P.S. What is the "M9 BLUE" ? The blue model made by Lan-Cay for the "civilian-market" with the old grip. Then, i gave this model to a good friend-fisher

[Misfit-45]

Hello folks,
I am trying to be very fair and unbiased in making the determination whether or not this M9 is a shallow fuller M9. I have made arguments against the shallow fuller idea, but they have not stood up to scrutiny. I thought the fuller was milled “short” making the fuller look as though it was a shallow fuller but wasn’t. I was wrong about the milling. The blade was roughly forged which, based on previous posts is not too uncommon among LanCay M9s.

In my last post, I provided a side by side picture which would visually indicate that the fuller on one M9 is significantly narrower than the other one. Why is that?.... if both M9s are of the standard variety? Are there other fullered 1992 M9s that are so narrow that they could be mistaken for a shallow fullered 1993? Maybe, but I have not seen one. By my measurements, the narrow fuller is about 10% narrower than the standard fuller.

Since my only reason to question the reality of this M9 being a shallow fuller was invalidated by the fact that it was forged that way and not milled, then I must therefore conclude that this is indeed a 1993 shallow fuller LanCay M9.

I am not however, concluding that this is absolutely one of the 350 delivered to the Army. What I am alleging is that this M9 was made in 1993 as a shallow fuller M9, but may have been held back and not sent to the Army. It has the early LanCay name, a hollow ground blade and a narrow fuller and none of the PI features of the later M9s.

I invite others to comment one way or the other. Please correct me if I am wrong. Thank you in advance. This forum is indeed a collection of the best minds in the M9 circle of collecting.

Marv

[Misfit-45]

Hi Folks,
Just one more picture. I measured the fullers on the three Phrobis III M9s I have. They all have fullers that measure a few thousandths wider than the standard LanCay I have been showing. Therefore the "scrap blade" LanCay is certainly suitable for comparison.
Thanks again.
Marv

http://i298.photobucket.com/albums/mm261/Misfit-45/IMG_0017.jpg

[pwcosol]

I was under the impression all blades were forged and then finish-machined where necessary. Sometimes the finish-machining was minimal or sloppy. Here is a example of a shallow fuller blade utilized for commercial purpose/special order:

[Misfit-45]

I apologize, for the math errors and the transposition of numbers in my posts.:frown:
I have made the corrections.
One thing I would like to ask, with all the pictures of shallow fuller M9s. Why hasn't anyone posted their measurements?
Marv

[Mister Moon]

http://www.ebay.com/itm/U-S-LAN-CAY-BAYONET-1993-MARKED-STRAIGHT-SCREWDRIVER-END-4-SLOT-SCABBARD-NEW-/281034432827?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item416ef5213b

[Misfit-45]

http://www.ebay.com/itm/U-S-LAN-CAY-BAYONET-1993-MARKED-STRAIGHT-SCREWDRIVER-END-4-SLOT-SCABBARD-NEW-/281034432827?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item416ef5213b

Yes, after a consult with other experts, I discovered that the measurement for the width of the narrow fuller should be 7mm. My "shallow fuller" measured 8.5mm. That puts it right smack in the middle. The standard is 10mm. Yes, it is narrower and shallower than the standard fuller, but no matter what it is, it probably is not the famed shallow fuller. It still would be a nice collectable LanCay M9, but not for the $360 I paid. I sent it back and received a full refund. I would recommend this seller very highly. Thank you all for the valuable input.
Marv
PS. I am also selling the other M9 I used for comparison.