300 whisper barrel

[Barsmash]

I just got my Remington 700 action in and I am going to be sending it out next week to have a 300-whisper barrel put on. I have one question for all your guys out there. I have been reading and getting mixed results on barrel length. What if any advice cans you give me? I have seen 16" all the way up to 24". Please help as this is the first custom rifle I am building and I want to make sure it is right the first time.
Andy

[spmorgan]

Andy, I just built mine and I machined the barrel to 20" which sits very comfortable when walking with it. It basically splits the size you have been hearing of 24" and 16". Shane

[Gelandangan]

Hi Andy,

The reason I am using 24" is because:
a. I could always cut it down if it is not suitable
b. Whenever I want to use it with supersonic ammo, the extra length may (or may not) help me get a few extra fps.
c. I am hoping that with subsonic ammo all the powder burned within the barrel before the bullet exits so there will be a bit less muzzle blast and no flash to speak of. Bear in mind where I came from silencers are not obtainable legally.

So there is my two cents.

Gelan

[Artful]

I have 16 inch as the can adds length back onto it and I didn't want to spend the Tax Money to register as Short Barreled Rifle.:wink:

[Spook]

Its been my experience there's not much to be gained chambering a Whisper for a barrel much longer than 16". If you consider the cartridge was chambered in Contender barrels as short as 10" and performed well at that length.... :rolleyes: ( I would have inserted a "No Brainer" emoticon here but there isnt one)

[WhisperFan]

I am having a Remington 700 turned into a 300 Whisper as well. I am going with a 20 inch length. That way, when I add the can, it isn't too long to manage.

I personally think that a full size bolt action rifle with a 16 inch barrel looks funny.

[Spook]

I personally think that a full size bolt action rifle with a 16 inch barrel looks funny.

If you think thats funny, wait till none of the published data for subsonics (the reason you're going to get a can) produce their published velocities because the last 5 inches of your barrel is producing drag on your projectiles. Funnier still when the cold end of the barrel gathers extra fouling and slows them down even more :cool: Your can will sure be quiet though, provided the reduced/ erratic velocities dont produce too many baffle strikes.
I personally think when you go out of your way to chamber a rifle for a "specialty cartridge" your barrel should compliment the catridge's characteristics.
Using appearence as logic to determine barrel length is analogous to taking a Mercedes to a tractor pull. I think Michael Jackson looks funny and I'd never chamber him in 300 whisper either.

[Malaga]

I would go along with Spook on this. Baffle strikes can really ruin your whole day. Most would go with a barrel length that does not require an SBR build and the additional tax that goes along with that...

[WhisperFan]

... wait till none of the published data for subsonics (the reason you're going to get a can) produce their published velocities because the last 5 inches of your barrel is producing drag on your projectiles.

I have always seen that longer barrels produce higher velocities when using the same cartridge. Why does the barrel produce 'drag'? Does all the powder burn up at exactly 16" and the bullet coasts out of any additional barrel length?

I re-read my post and I wanted to ensure you didn't tink I was being a smart ass. I really want to learn as much about this round as possible before I do my build.

I do have some trouble with your statement where you said ... Funnier still when the cold end of the barrel gathers extra fouling and slows them down even more Your can will sure be quiet though, provided the reduced/ erratic velocities dont produce too many baffle strikes.Why will the barrel get 'extra fouling'?

[pug]

Well I think what they are saying is that if you are talking about a subsonic load for use with a can then you are held to a limit of about 1100 fps in velocity. It is very easy to get there and you are right that a longer barrel produces more velocity and that is the problem. With a long barrel you must use a really fast burning powder or else the bullet will be surely supersonic. In fact you must burn up the majority of the powder way before the end of a 16" barrel or else the bullet will be supersonic. Pistol length barrels are subsonic in nature rifle barrel lengths are not. Your barrel will excel with supersonic 300/221 loads because of the length but to keep the loads subsonic the charge will be light and fast and the bullet will be "coasting" quite a bit towards the end of the barrel. Many feel that barrels stay cleaner if the gasses are still plenty hot coming out the muzzle. A clean burning powder will help both your barrel and can stay cleaner. Now if I could just get them to send me my 300/221 parts I could really speak with some authority on this subject. :)

[Quarterbore]

I missed this thread back when it was new... darned work :eek:

Anyways, I built a Remington 700 LTR Clone with a 1:8 twist Douglass blank cut to 20-inches. With the 3-inch Gem-Tech Bilock on there the barrel is nearly 24-inches long :frown:

I really wish I had gone with something shorter (say 16.5 to 17-inches) as it would allow the gun to be back to the 20-inch range when the bi-lock was added.

Because of the small powder charge, I don't think there are any loads that really require a barrel length longer then 16-inches to use up the powder anyways.

I will have my barrle cut down one of these days but my lovely wife knows I had that one built so I need to just leave it alone for a while as while the barrel is longer then I wanted, it does work fine (I don't have a can for it yet).

[Spook]

I re-read my post and I wanted to ensure you didn't tink I was being a smart ass. I really want to learn as much about this round as possible before I do my build.

I do have some trouble with your statement where you said Why will the barrel get 'extra fouling'?

Whisperfan,I didnt think you were being a smart ass :smile:but I suspect I was so I apologize .:o
When you think of the muzzle collecting crud, think of making moonshine. The corn squeezin's start out as a fermented mash set to a boil, the steam goes up and if there wasnt a condenser coil the "shortness" of the boiling apparatus would allow the steam/alchohol to escape (as vapor) rather than condense as 'shine.
A longer barrel (when used in conjunction with fast burning powder) uses the cold end of the barrel as a condenser for powder residue. Add to that a copper projectile(which tends to leave little bits of itself on the rifling by way of galling ) pushing its way through the crud.....which has a tendency to grab more copper rather than get blasted out of the way.... the situation sets itself up as a case of diminishing return for the sake of being to run lighter bullets faster, which is questionable anyway, due to the case's lack of volume .

[WhisperFan]

*snip* I suspect I was so I apologize .
No problem - I'm still learning - other than 22 long rifle and a lever action 1866 Yellowboy in 38, I have never had a rifle that shot subsonic projectiles and I am trying to learn.

Given what you said, and what Quarterbore said about his opinion that a 20" barrel can be used with success, but is longer than necessary, I sent an email to PacNor and asked them to shorten the barrel I ordered. Since they haven't even started it yet, it should be easy to "shorten it" :rolleyes:
I decided on an 18" length.

When you think of the muzzle collecting crud, think of making moonshine.
I live in Franklin County Virginia - once called the Moonshine Capital of the United States. Not that I've ever tried some ...... that would be illegal :wink:

A longer barrel (when used in conjunction with fast burning powder) uses the cold end of the barrel as a condenser for powder residue. Add to that a copper projectile(which tends to leave little bits of itself on the rifling by way of galling ) pushing its way through the crud.....which has a tendency to grab more copper rather than get blasted out of the way.... the situation sets itself up as a case of diminishing return for the sake of being to run lighter bullets faster, which is questionable anyway, due to the case's lack of volume.
I think I can grasp that - thanks for the explanation.

[Spook]

I live in Franklin County Virginia - once called the Moonshine Capital of the United States. Not that I've ever tried some ...... that would be illegal :wink:

:grin: :wink: I only use it medicinally or for really stubborn copper fowling.:eek:

Rich at PacNor does very good work, you're in good hands. I've been to their operation in Brookings, the place is so clean you could do surgery in the same room they do the chambering.

[WhisperFan]

Rich at PacNor does very good work, you're in good hands. I've been to their operation in Brookings, the place is so clean you could do surgery in the same room they do the chambering.PacNor calls the chamber a "300 Whisper" I have read that the "300 Whisper" chamber is slightly different than the "300/221" chamber.

Do you know what type of reamer PacNor uses?

From what I understand and actual Whisper has a smaller neck area. Due to that difference in neck size, rounds using Redding dies (300/221) can have trouble chambering in rifles chambered with Whisper dies - but rounds made using dies made to Whisper dimensions can be chambered in rifles made by SSK Industries or those made with the slightly larger 300/221 reamer.

What is your input on this?

[Spook]

PacNor calls the chamber a "300 Whisper" I have read that the "300 Whisper" chamber is slightly different than the "300/221" chamber.

Do you know what type of reamer PacNor uses?

I almost dont want to answer due to not wanting to taint anyones impression of PacNor. They are a FIRST CLASS outfit.
The one and only barrel I ever sent back to PacNor was one they chambered for me in 300/221 :frown: . One of two things was wrong... Their reamer is VERY picky about brass, or it was a bad barrel, which in all fairness happens.Long story made short...They replaced the barrel after 2 attempts to make it shoot, too their credit.
I now own a lathe and do barrels/recievers myself.The Whisper reamer I've since purchased from PTG allows me to use Military, Rem , PMC, Win...whatever, with the provision the cases are trimmed somewhere near 1.355.
I form my brass using one pass/trim/debur so I know its not the most uniform before fire forming.but the chamber, chambers and shoots everything I've fed it. You might call Penny at PacNor and ask for her reamer print and compare it to one That Myra or Kathleen can fax you from PTG. If they are the same...It might be that PacNors has worn away just enough to make things tight and they may have replaced that reamer since chambering for me.
Wish I could help more :o

[kurtz]

Whisperfan...I received my PacNor barrel about a week ago, it is marked 300-221, although they call it 300 whisper on their web site.......I put the barrel on a CZ 527....shot it this weekend, about 200 rounds, worked great and keeps within 1 MOA no problem....with 18gr H110 getting 2,300 to 2,325fps with 125 TNT's....slight flattening of primers, but brass comes out of chamber easy.....I had PacNor reduce the free bore in the chamber to help out the shorter bullets....the rifle is going to be dedicated to light bullets so it worked out great....I have two other whisper guns, both from SSK....the PacNor so far is my personal favorite, as I was more involved in the build and design....good luck with your build....Kurtz

[WhisperFan]

The main thing for me is that I plan to use reformed 223 brass rather than reformed fireball brass.

I have a neck reamer and outside neck turner, so I guess I can adjust to whatever I get - I was just curious as to what would be coming.

I'm only a little over 4 weeks since my order - so I have 4 to 6 weeks yet to wait.
Can't wait to :uzi2:it
:grin:

[kurtz]

Whisperfan.....I form my brass from mostly unfired Winchester .223.....I have used several .223 head stamps (norinco, pmc, remington, lake city.....)....I am using Hornady 300 whisper JDJ dies, all the dimensions of the formed brass check out including neck wall thickness and finished load neck outside diameter....the two SSK and one PacNor guns chamber and cycle fine....get a little brass growth with the super-sonic loads but nothing out of the ordinary.....the PacNor barrel is dedicated to super-sonic 125 to 130gr bullets and has a 1:11 twist.....the two SSK guns are for sub-sonic loads with a 1:8 twist, I was a little disappointed after examining the two SSK chambers, purchased about three months apart, there is over .065" difference between the two chambers....so each gun ends up having its own OAL load.....

[WhisperFan]

I decided to bring up this thread - rather than start a new one.....

PacNor charged my credit card - which means that my new barrel is shipping - I cant wait to get it. I probably should have gotten stainless - I might have to wait for my gunshith to be parkerizing some other stuff to get mine done. It might have to be warmer too - I'm going with a black park finish. I really am excited

[m21black]

16.25" is the perfect barrel length for a 300 Whisper with or without a can and anything longer is a waste. With magnum rifles I understand a longer barrel but even a 308 is optimized around 18 inches. Long barrels are great with match rifles with open sites where you are extending your site radius.

Even if a 16" rifle looked fun why would you knock it if it worked better?Personally I like the look of a short rifle and even like the way it handles even better.

[320pf]

Last year I had the same question when I was researching the 300 whisper for my first wildcat project. I had Randall at AR15 Barrels.com run some QUICKLOAD calculations for me and my conclusions are mostly in agreement with m21black. You might get 25 to 35 fps more velocity for every in barrel added with the lighter bullets using the slower burning powders like Accurate 1680 going with a barrel length of 18 to 20 in. But you can pretty much match those velocities using the slightly faster powders like Win 296 or H110. The QUICKLOAD data indicate that Winchester 296 will generally give you the highest velocities for all bullet weights. I know H110 and Win 2965 are supposed to be the same but they are not. My reloading data also show that Win 296 yields higher velocities and lower pressure indicators (see discussion below).

I have also had pretty good results with Hodgdon Lil'Gun as far as high velocities and lower pressure indicators. But Win 296 produces better groups in my gun than Lil'Gun.

Randal ran these QUICKLOAD models using a 16 barrel for the following bullets and powders:

bullets
147 gr winchester FMJBT,
150 gr Sierra SBT GK,
155 gr Sierra HPBT PALMA MK,
165 gr Speer SPBT,

powders
Win 296
H110
Accurate XMR5744
Accurate 1680
Aliant Reloader-7

The run data indicate that all of these powders are 96-100% combusted in a 16 in barrel with the exception of Accurate 1680 with generally ran about 92-93% combusted. The p_muzzle for all the loads was down to about 5000-5500 psi. Win 296 consistently had the highest p_muzzle, indicating that the powder was giving the bullet the most push of the examined powders.

Randall also ran QUICKLOAD set for an 18 in barrel pushing 180 gr Norma Silverbl with the same powders and a few more. The results are pretty much the same. The QUICKLOAD indicate that the velocities from a 16 in. barrel are about 20-30 fps slower than from an 18 in. barrel. The calculated p_muzzle for the loads was down to about 3000-4000 psi in the 18 in barrel. This is a big drop (~2000 psi) compared to the p_muzzle data from the 16 in barrel. These results suggest that in a barrel length much longer than about 18-20 in. the bullet will start slowing down in the barrel because the gas pressure in dropping off and the friction of the bullet moving through the barrel is becoming greater than the push of the powder gases.



Note: the 180 gr loads results have been varified using 180 gr Sierra SBT GK.

See my loads listed on:

http://reloadersnest.com/frontpage.asp?CaliberID=135)

[m21black]

So it sounds like somewhere between 16-18" is the optinum barrel length for the 300 Whisper, I buy that. I still like the shorter barrel for suppressor use and the "ungainly" 24" barrel on a 300 Whisper is a "wasted effort".
My brother was actually speaking to Mike Rock about optinum barrel lengths for different cartridges, I'm a shooter with an engineering background not a ballistitian or barrelmakers but the physics that go on in a barrel are pretty amazing. Mr Rock confirms your statement about friction with to long of barrel and how it causes inaccuracy and a bunch of other negatives.

[kurtz]

I watched the debate on barrel length for the 300 whisper over the last several months before deciding on a platform, barrel length, and twist for my build ....I decided on a SSK 16" 1:8 CZ527 freebore chambered for 220gr matchkings....very happy with the performance of the rifle and the "quietness" of the SSK suppressor with sub-sonic loads......Also happy with the performance of super-sonic 125 TNT's, although the accuracy with the lighter faster 125's in the 1:8 was less than stunning.....

Well, the bug bit to build another rifle and I continued to watch the debate over shorter Vs. longer barrels, slower Vs. faster twist....I wanted to build a bench gun dedicated to super-sonic inexpensive to shoot 300 whisper loads so I put together, to play the "Devil's Advocate", a PacNor 24" 1:11 CZ527 freebore chambered for 125 TNT's just to see how it would work....

For super-sonic 125 use the PacNor 24" 1:11 will outshoot my other two SSK 16" 1:8 guns any day of the week....Once the 24" 1:11 settled in, unless I goof a pull, it will shoot an honest 1/2" at a 100yds.... I have shot several 10 round groups at 2300fps that can be covered with a penny ....

For a given load (18gr H110) the 24" 1:11 consistantly posts almost 200fps faster than the 16"1:8 bolt gun and right at 300fps faster than my 16" 1:8 AR....

Granted all of this is for super-sonic loads, the "stove pipe" does not have enough freebore to try 220 subs in, and from what I've found (somebody back me up here) the 1:8 is close to the edge of stabilization for the 220's so 1:11 is probably way out of reason, I have noticed several people building 1:7 and 1:6.5 for the 220 and 240 subs.....

Just wanting to share my $ .02

[skarke]

Great MJ crack :-)