300/221 Recipe for AR

[Lawfficer]

I just bought an AR15 upper in 300/221 a/k/a 300 Whisper to mount on my Colt 6920 from Olympic Arms. I don't have very much reloading expirance at all, mostly shotguns. However, I have a friend that Im going to force into labor for me, He does have quite a bit of loading expirance.

So I need a recipe for a 300/221-300 whiper to be used in an AR15. I have two powders to use, Red Dot or Hogdgon 110. I guess Red Dot is a shotgun powder but on Accurate Reloading they used it. But it seems Hogdgon 110 is a pretty popular powder to load 300/221 with.

I will be using .223 brass resized but I also have .221 Fireball brass. The primers are the standard 205M and the bullet I want to use are Speer 165gr JSP. Im looking for OAL, Powder Charge, etc.

Thanks a bunch!!

[320pf]

Lawfficer-

I just read both of your posts. I also have a olympic arms AR15 upper in 300/221. It shoots most ammo pretty well. I would suggest that you consider getting an adjustable gas block. I found that some of the best loads that I worked up cycled that action a bit too hard.

If you want n=more info on how I installed my adjustable gas block... Let me know and I will send you more info.

I have found that Hodgdon's Lil"Gun is a very good powder for the 300 whisper. It generated the highest velocity and the lowest pressure signs than any of the powders that I have tried.

Just a bit of related info. The 300-221 fireball has a similar powder capacity as the 357 mag. but can run at higher pressures (40,000-45,000 psi for the 357 mag and 52,000 for the 300-221 fireball). So check out the Hodgdon web site for 357 loads and you will get an idea how H110 and Lil"Gun powders compare.

A good source of reloading data for the 300-221 fireball can be had from Sierra. Give them a call and they will send you a pdf file of their reloading data for 110g to 240g bullets.

I have also posted all of my reload data on the following site:

http://reloadersnest.com/frontpage.asp?CaliberID=135


Also a warning! DO NOT USE H110 for subsonic loads or powder charges less than those listed in the Sierra reloading manual! You can/will blow-up your gun. If you do not believe me check this site out:

http://feistyrooster.com/300x221/300x221barrelsplit.html

If you want to shoot subsonic loads you will need to use faster pistol powders than H100

I posted this data for subsonic loads a few weeks back under the following thread:

Quarterbore's Forums > 300 Whisper Forums > 300 Whisper Ammo and Reloading > 200 grain Sudsonic Recipes?

These subsonic loads are from the Acurate Arm reloading manual and will not blow-up your gun.

Gun: UR wiseman
Barel length 16"
Primer REM 7 1/2BR
Case REM

Bullet Powder Grains Vel PSI
SRA 165 SPBT AANo.2 5.8 1090 37300
SRA 165 SPBT AANo.5 5.6 1092 19000
SRA 165 SPBT AANo.7 7.0 1097 22600
SRA 165 SPBT AANo.9 7.5 1075 18200

Bullet Powder Grains Vel PSI
SRA 190 HPBT AANo.2 3.2 1087 49200
SRA 190 HPBT AANo.5 5.7 1075 24300
SRA 190 HPBT AANo.7 7.2 1074 30700
SRA 190 HPBT AANo.9 7.5 1060 24300

Bullet Powder Grains Vel PSI
SRA 220 HPBT AANo.2 5.5 889 52600
SRA 220 HPBT AANo.5 6.3 1062 38200
SRA 220 HPBT AANo.7 7.5 1043 44500
SRA 220 HPBT AANo.9 8.2 1056 39500

I have tested this load in my olympic arma AR15 (16 in. barrel)

SRA 180 SPBT GameKing AANo.9 7.5 1034

[Lawfficer]

I read that, but it sounds like he under loaded the gun, then stacked the rounds on top of eachother to do that. I don't think you can soley blame the powder.

I just loaded up a few rounds tonight as "tester" rounds. I loaded the above mentioned Speer JSP 165gr into resized .223 primers, with Hodgdon 110. I looked at loading data and it said a 168gr bullet loaded with 17.2 of Hodgdon 110 produced 1958velocity/1431Energy.

So I loaded Five-17.0, Five-16.8, Five-16.6, Five-16.4, Five-16.2, Five-16.0. I figure, starting with 16.0 and working up, I should be able to get a feel for how the gun likes it. The only problem is OAL.

If you could, can you measue a round of yours for the Over All Length. I can't seem to find a concrete answer on line. Right now I have them just presses in and they are measuring 2.65". Which is just a little shorter than the AR mag they are going in.

[BRM]

They under loaded it to produce sub sonice velocities (much quieter, hence whisper). For super sonic loads, cycling should be no problem. My J&T seems to get too much gas with my adjustable gas block, but that was with it wide open. I still have more experimenting to do to find a super sonic and a sub sonic load that cycles right. For sub sonic I'm going to try AAC-1680 as a powder. I've been using H4227 and it seems to work well for super sonic. Once I find some loads that work well for me, I will post the data.

In addition to brass/primer/powder/bullet variables that I am used to dealing with, the AR platform has a couple more to deal with: gas port position (mine is in the carbine position), Gas port size (they seem to range from .060" to .125"), and gas block type (I have a JP Enterprises adjustable one). Everybody that posts a load in an AR should give us an idea of their setup.

Later,
BRM

[DonT]

Lawfficer,

I looked up my loads for my Model 1 Sales upper. Not sure if these will work for you or not. Use at your own risk as you would anyones data. I have not had an opportunity to put these over a chrony but they are very mild.

My load is:
12.8 of H110
Remington benchrest primer
147gr FMJ (supplier says they are match bullets but ???)
R-P .223 brass or R-P .221 Fireball brass.
Brass Trimmed to 1.335
OAL 2.115 (bullets seated to about 1/2 way thru the cannure)

These have functioned fine in my AR, cycling it with 100% reliability. My rifle did come with an adjustable gas block and I beleive with this load it is pretty much open all the way. There are no high pressure signs and all the bullets exit the barrel:smile:

As I mentioned this is for information only use at your own risk.

I know some will notice I am trimming a little short and the OAL is less than you will find posted. My upper apparently has a tight chamber and shallow throat. I used posted trim lengths and OAL. Worked fine in my bolt gun but first one in my AR got jammed before going into battery. If you want a hair raising experience have this happen. Bolt carrier extended into the recoil spring tube so you can't seperate the upper and lower. Using the old pull on the charging handle and rap the butt end of the stock on the loading bench would not dislodge it. It was just a smidgeon short of locking up. I will NOT tell you how I got it into battery but surfice it to say it is NOT something for the faint of heart and I don't want to go over through it again any time soon.

At first I thought the upper had been mistreated or had a problem but it didn't. After going back to the basics I loaded some dummy rounds, should have done this first, after starting with brass shorted more than they needed to be. This improved the situation but still had some occassional sticking where the bolt would not open as it should. Then I started using trimmed brass with no bullets till I got a length that would allow the bolt to close with 100% reliability. Then I loaded some more dummy rounds with the bullet I was using and once again encountered occassonal issues with sticking. I varied the seating depth till I got 100% reliable cycling with no sticking.

So as it turns out I had two issues going on and needed to correct both. I have reloaded for nearly 25 yrs now but never ventured into the custom (wildcat) cartridge world prior to this. I am sure that what I went thru is amature stuff to seasoned wildcatters but after some search I have not been able to find anything that talks about working a round up from this very basic level. I didn't have any of these problems with my bolt gun, which I had before buying the AR upper. But this was a savage action and I headspace it to the sized round I was using and it had a fairly deep throat so that bullets seated to published OAL did not give me an issue.

I know this is little more information than Lawffice asked about loads but thought it might help some others avoid some of the pitfalls I had whether it be a .221/.300 Fireball (.300 whisper) or or a .458 Socom.:grin:

Thanks,
DonT

[320pf]

Lawfficer-

The OAL for the 300-221-fireball running in an AR15 is about 2.255 in. They have to be able to fit in the mags... I am certain that an OAL of 2.65" that you listed in your post will not fit in AR mags. If you check the web site:

http://reloadersnest.com/frontpage.asp?CaliberID=135

All of my loads are listed under the "Not Yet verified user loads". My loads are for the following powders:
winchester 296
H4227
Lil'Gun
H110

I have included the OAL for all of the loads that I posted. The brass that I make from .223 brass, I trim to 1.400 in. The brass that I have that I made from necked up 221-fireball brass is shorter.. 1.366".

One last bit of info. My 300/221 olympic arms AR15 upper has the gas port in the pistol position.


I hope this helps.

320pf

[Scollins]

Also a warning! DO NOT USE H110 for subsonic loads or powder charges less than those listed in the Sierra reloading manual! You can/will blow-up your gun. If you do not believe me check this site out:

http://feistyrooster.com/300x221/300x221barrelsplit.html

If you want to shoot subsonic loads you will need to use faster pistol powders than H110



Excuse my french, but that is a bunch of crap. The Sierra manual has loads for subsonic 300 Whisper using H110. Yes, that particular individual screwed up his gun. Was it because he used H110 for subsonic loads? Possibly. We actually have no idea why that happened to him. I do know that he wasn't using a 240 grain SMK, which is the specified bullet in the Sierra manual.

I use H110 for subsonic loads using 240 grain SMKs. Funny, when I look at my Sierra pages for the 300 Whisper, it says to use 9.6 grains of H110 for 950 FPS, up to 11.5 grains for 1200 FPS. There are 3 different charge weights for subsonic H110 loads listed. 9.6 for 950, 10.0 for 1000 and 10.4 for 1050. My particular carbine settled on 9.9 grains of H110 for 1005 FPS. It cycles fine (not violently) and ALL my brass lands in a nice little pile 3 feet to my right and 3 feet back.

The powders listed in the Sierra manual for subsonic 240 grains loads are:
AA No 9 (#39 on the burn chart)
2400 (#38 on the burn chart)
Vhit N110 (#41 on the burn chart)
H110 (#43 on the burn chart)
296 (#44 on the burn chart)
Viht N120 (#53 on the burn chart)
AA-1680 (#48 on the burn chart)

Burn chart numbers based pulled from: http://www.hodgdon.com/data/general/burnratechart.php

Funny, all of those powders are either about as slow as, or slower than, H110. H110 is actually right in the middle, with 3 powders being faster and 3 being slower. The "accuracy load" is shown in the manual as "Viht N110/10.1 grs ; 1100 fps/645ft lbs." Viht N110, is just barely faster than H110.

The Sierra Manual doesn't recommend anything faster than AA #9 until you get to the 135 grain bullets. After that, the fastest powder listed is AA #5 for the 110 grain to 135 grain bullets. A few powders appear on every single bullet weight from 110 grain to 240 grain, H110 being one of them. H110 has subsonic loads listed for 220 grain and 240 grain bullets. It does not have one listed for 200 grain or lower, but then again, neither does any powder in the Sierra manual.

[Cornholio]

I like using Alliant 2400 for my Whisper needs. I have a simple formula that works for me. 9.0grs under a 220gr SMK for subsonic loads, double that (18grs) under a Sierra 110gr JHP for supersonic 2,300-2,400fps loads.

[320pf]

Scollins,

Did you read the recommendation that I posted carefully?

"Also a warning! DO NOT USE H110 for subsonic loads or powder charges less than those listed in the Sierra reloading manual!"

I did not say;

"DO NOT USE H110 for subsonic loads"

I said;

"DO NOT USE H110 for subsonic loads or powder charges less than those listed in the Sierra reloading manual!"

I believe that this is sound advice to give someone new to reloading his own ammo. It is also sound advice for anyone reloading no matter what the experience level.

Finally, the velocities given for loads listed in the Sierra manual are all out of a 10 in. barrel. I have found that I typically get 100 to 200 fps more than the listed velocity from my 16 in. barrel.

320pf

[Lawfficer]

Ok guys thanks....

Im still looking for more imput on OAL, but I guess what it is all going to boild down to getting my upper and spacing it out. Hopefully, the 100rds I have made up will work and are not to short, as I trimmed the brass to 1.355". Good thing .223 brass is cheap and abundant. :)

Thanks for the help... and I just aquired a liter of AA No. 7 to load with too, do if there are any loads for that.... Im all ears... or should I say "eyes"

[Cornholio]

320pf posted some data above.

[Lawfficer]

Anyone Anyone

[Scollins]

Scollins,

Did you read the recommendation that I posted carefully?

"Also a warning! DO NOT USE H110 for subsonic loads or powder charges less than those listed in the Sierra reloading manual!"

I did not say;

"DO NOT USE H110 for subsonic loads"

I said;

"DO NOT USE H110 for subsonic loads or powder charges less than those listed in the Sierra reloading manual!"

I believe that this is sound advice to give someone new to reloading his own ammo. It is also sound advice for anyone reloading no matter what the experience level.

Finally, the velocities given for loads listed in the Sierra manual are all out of a 10 in. barrel. I have found that I typically get 100 to 200 fps more than the listed velocity from my 16 in. barrel.

320pf

I did read it carefully. It says "DO NOT USE H110 for subsonic loads OR powder charges less than those listed in the Sierra reloading manual." The choice and placement of the word *OR* in your statement means "DO NOT USE H110 for subsonic loads." Everything after the *OR* is a different statement or condition, and totally separates itself from the initial statement before the word *OR*.

If you meant to convey that H110 can be used with subsonic loads, but with certain conditions, your statement should read "DO NOT USE H110 for subsonic loads WITH powder charges less than those listed in the Sierra Reloading manual." You could also phrase it as "DO NOT USE H110 for subsonic loads UNLESS you are at or above the minimum powder charges listed in the Sierra Reloading Manual."

My personal opinion is that noobies to reloading shouldn't be messing around with wild cat catridges, even one with a lot of commercial data like the 300 Whisper, 300/221, 300 Fireball or whatever you want to call it. There are diffferences in chamber reamers used by the various barrel makers and that can cause problems. There are different die manufacturers, and there are differences in their dimensions. I use Redding Dies in a Randall Rausch barrel, with brass from Davis that is formed from Redding Dies. It works well in my rifle.

Also, building subsonic loads is a different process than what most reloading manuals suggest for standard loads, which is start low and work UP. With subsonic, you want to start near maximum and work your way DOWN, not the other way around. The person in the Fiesty Rooster link should have started with his higher loads first, then worked down until he got the velocity he wanted. Had he done that, he might not have split his barrel.

[320pf]

Scollins,

You are correct! I should have used "with" not "or". My bad.

I also agree with your sentiment that people new to reloading should start with a standard cartridge before venturing into the wildcat realm.

I am using Redding Dies including the trim/forming die as well. I have made 200 rounds from unfired 221 FireBall brass and 200 rounds from unfired winchester 223 brass. I have recently tried about 75 pieces of brass from Davis.... I am probably going to stop making my own brass and just buy brass from Davis.

I am running a 16 in. Olympic Arm barrel with the gas port in the pistol position. I had Randall Rausch thread and slightly re-profile the barrel so I could install and JP Enterprise Bennie Cooley compensator and a JP Enterprise low profile adjustable gas block.

What is the the barrel set-up that you are running?

I am mostly interested in supersonic loads that make/exceed the IPSIC power factor of 320 (bullet wt X vel./1000). Currently the loads that I have that make the 320 power factor are:

16.5 gr H110 behind a 180 SPBT sierra GameKing at 1827 fps
16.5 gr Lil'Gun behind a 180 SPBT sierra GameKing at 1840 fps
16.5 gr H4227 behind a 180 SPBT sierra GameKing at 1792 fps

I am now working up 165 gr and 155 gr bullets. Randall ran some QUICKLOAD models for me and it looks like that the 155 g (PALMA) is the lightest bullet that I can use to make the 320 power factor.

Any way... I was wondering if I have Randall make a barrel in either 18 or 20 inches... can I get 150g bullets over 2133 fps to make power factor

[libertyswiss]

I use H110 for subsonic loads using 240 grain SMKs. My particular carbine settled on 9.9 grains of H110 for 1005 FPS. It cycles fine (not violently) and ALL my brass lands in a nice little pile 3 feet to my right and 3 feet back.


Hello Scollins

I'm a Swiss user and i'm a newbie on reloading ammo.
I have a .300whisper-DSC upper with 16"-barrel and gas port position in carbine lenght. I don't know the gas port diameter and the gas tube/gas block are not adjustable. Unfortunately the only currently available .300whisper-ammo in Switzerland is the RUAG Swiss P with 220 grains, but this combination don't cycle on my .300whisper.

You wrote that your cycling subsonic load is 240grains SierraMatchKing with 9.9grains H110.
Do you think this load will cycle on my upper?
Do you mind if i ask you what OAL do you use for this and what kind of crimp?

Do you have any experience with cycling subsonic loads for 7,62x39russian?
I would try N130 due gas port position in the AKM-47, but N130 is not a very fast burning powder and i'm very scary about the danger of secondary explosion that will blow up the gun and cause heavy injury.

Best regards from Switzerland
Roberto

[Pitt300]

VV N110 is an excellent choice & I think I'm switching to that in my subsonic loads due to temperature related velocity changes w/H110.
Sierra has load data both super & sub for VV N110 & it is their recommended powder in most of their loads.
I may be wrong but I think you HAVE to put a can on the gun or there isn't enough pressure/dwell time to cycle.
That's my experience anyway.
I do know that M1S has a very light weight 300-221 buffer & spring that might cycle w/o can but I'm not sure.

[A62Rambler]

I requested loads from Accurate Arms. Since it's a PDF and too large for the server limit, I can't figure how to post it. If anyone wants a copy, you can PM me. Or if somebody knows how to take the PDF and make it text so it can be posted I'd be happy to send it to you. :o

[cav_scout_tj]

Here is something I found, http://stevespages.com/308p_6.html

I have gleaned it for the powders and bullets I like:

Disclaimer: If you use this and blow yourself up thats' on you. For informational purposes only... bla bla bla.

-------------------------------------
300 whisper data

bullet powder start max

110 2400 14.1 17.1
110 H110 16.3 20.4
110 Lil Gun 16.3 20.4
110 296 16.6 20.3

125 2400 15 16.3
125 H110 14.9 19
125 Lil Gun 14.9 19
125 296 16.3 19

135 2400 15 16
135 H110 15.1 17.7
135 Lil Gun 15.1 17.7
135 296 15.6 17.9

150 2400 12.9 15.7
150 H110 13.5 17
150 Lil Gun 13.5 17
150 4227 14.4 17.4
150 296 13.2 17

168 2400 11.4 15
168 H110 11.6 15.6
168 Lil Gun 11.6 15.6
168 4227 13 15.9
168 296 11.6 15.7

175 2400 10.5 14.6
175 H110 11.4 14.5
175 Lil Gun 11.4 14.5
175 4227 11.4 15
175 296 10.9 14.9

190 2400 10.5 14
190 H110 11 14
190 Lil Gun 11 14
190 4227 12.3 14.3
190 296 11.3 14.6

200 2400 10.7 13.1
200 H110 10.7 13.2
200 Lil Gun 10.7 13.2
200 296 10.6 13.8

220 2400 10 12.3
220 H110 9.9 12.4
220 Lil Gun 9.9 12.4
220 296 9.8 12.7

240 2400 9.4 11.3
240 H110 9.6 11.5
240 Lil Gun 9.6 11.5
240 296 9.3 11.3