high pressure

[patwa]

I recently went to shoot to make sure my rifle was still sighted in. I had found a load, 19gr of H110 and a 125 gr ballistic tip that shot under an inch, and I had loaded several boxes. Now the same load is showing signs of high pressure. I blew a primer on the first shot, and after two more shots knew that it was that way with the other shells, and the three shot group was 2-3 inches. The only difference is that it is now in the nineties in our corner of Louisiana and the load workup was done in the winter. Is the cartridge that sensitive to temperatures? Of note, that 19 gr of H110 was close to a max load in my rifle.

[cherokee]

It's not the cartridge it's the powder. H110 can be temperature sensitive. Start with a lower charge and work back up then use that load for all seasons. You could also switch to a less temperature sensitive powder. I have had good results with AA1680.

[patwa]

I will try it. Have you loaded any 125 gr bullets with AA1680? Seems most references use that powder with the heavier bullets. I want to use the load for deer hunting and I had good luck with the 125 gr ballistic tips last year. I was concerned about the heavier bullets not having enough velocity to expand.

[cherokee]

I use 150 gr ballistis tips for deer. So far I have had good results with them. I use 20gr of AA1680 and I get 1950fps out of a 16" barrel. I have not used the 125gn bullets with AA1680. You could try IMR 4227 with the 125 BT.

[700X]

Hey Patwa,
Are you sure all other conditions were the same? Were loaded rounds left on the dash of your truck, possibly, before you shot them? I am no expert on H-110, but it sounds strange to me that 50 degrees or so (I don't think LA winters are very cold?) could make that much of a difference. My loads with the same bullet and 18.5gr in a fairly tight-chambered Bullberry Contender were shot last month at prairie dogs at just under 100 degrees with absolutely no signs of pressure. Primers not even flattened and easily extracted from the contender. Obviously your gun's reaction is more important than anyone else's, but there are a lot of people out there shooting 19gr without problems, and some of those aren't even in a bolt gun. Please keep us informed when you figure it out.

[700X]

Hey Cherokee,
Tell me about your deer with the 150gr BT's. So far no responses to my request for personal experiences with the 125's on big whitetails. Our deer here in IL are rarely under 200lbs (field dressed) if you wait for a mature buck, and all info I've read so far suggests 150 yards is absolute max range for the 125gr., and that's from people who are hunting much smaller deer. What about the 150? Where is best bullet placement? Will it go through shoulder bone and still exit? Sorry to bombard you with questions, but I absolutely LOVE big whitetails and don't want to learn at their expense any more than absolutely necessary. Also possibly pertinent, I subscribe to the high shoulder/spine area logic as the perfect shot placement, so that may further limit the effective range of the whisper for me. Any and all info you can pass on will be greatly appreciated. Thanks in advance,X

[patwa]

700X, the loaded shells were in my home the whole time, not left on the dashboard. I am shooting an AR 15, and it is a harder for me to tell than when shooting out of contender when the pressure is getting on the high side. I have some AA1680 coming in a week or two, and I am going to try going down on the H110 loads, hopefully this weekend. I will pass on the results.
I have had good luck with the 125 gr BT on deer, but the texas hill country deer are nowhere near the size you have. I shot four deer last year, and none took a step. Two were facing me straight on, and two were broadside. Both broadside shots were through the shoulder, with both bullets nicking the bottom of a the spine. One of those was on a 180 lb axis deer and the bullet ended just under the skin on the other side. This spring I also shot a corsican sheep at slightly over 150yds, and the bullet hit a little low but drilled the heart. I also shot two pigs, one a very small one, the other about 70-80 lbs, through the shoulder again. The expansion has been none too great. On the pig, the hole on the far side was at most 50 cal. That said, all animals dropped and did not get up, except for the sheep, and it only walked a short ways.
I too would be very interested in the results with the 150 grBTs.

[700X]

Hey Patwa,
Thanks for the quick reply! I thought you were shooting a 700, hence my reference to bolt guns. Must have combined info from other reads. I would really like to know what you find out. I mentioned the 100 degree prairie dog shoots, well those loads were originally worked up @ 40 degrees, then shot again in 70 and 80 degree temps before we left. Now granted, the 100 degree shoots were @ an elevation about 4000 feet higher than home, but I still don't understand why you had such a drastic change since I can't see any difference in a case shot @ 40 degrees and one of them sitting on the bench now that was shot in WY. I guess that helps to explain why people like us keep doing this sort of thing forever. Can't get bored because you will never learn it all!
Just a quick note on your bullet info. A little surprised to hear of the minimal expansion. I actually expected the problem to be too MUCH expansion, thereby limiting it's ability to pass through. I think I'm going to carry the contender sort of like a back-up during our firearm season, and only use it if I think the situation is perfect until I really see what it can do.
As to the TX deer? I just got back from San Antonio and South Padre Island and I talked to a couple guides down there. They said their typical buck field dresses @ about 110-120 lbs. We don't even like to take a doe until she's at least that big here. Another gentleman from OK told me about his deer last year, a 190 class non-typical that field dressed 137 lbs., and had 6" bases and is estimated to have been in his fifth season. So trust me, I will never take our deer here for granted. Also trust me when I say there are very few other good reasons to live in this state!
Thanks again, and keep in touch. X

[700X]

Patwa,
One other thing before I leave here concerning pressures in general since you mentioned you have a difficult time judging pressures in your AR. I'm not big on advice, but one thing I would highly recommend to ANYONE who handloads is to prioritize a quality chronograph purchase ASAP, if you don't already have one. You can "waste" a LOT of powder by adding another grain or two, thinking your going a little faster (because the books say so) when in fact you're not. But the reason I mention it now is a chronograph can be very helpful in HELPING to determine max loads. Watch your standard deviations. Don't be cheap and try to get by with only loading 3 of each powder charge, but watch the SD's. USUALLY as you approach your "max" pressure they will progressively get smaller, then rapidly get larger again when you've gotten too hot. Most of my rifles shoot best at or very near maximum, and also most of them will do it with single digit SD's with a little work. I feel very srongly about chronographs, though. I seriously would not handload without one. Kind of like brushing your teeth without toothpaste.....you're going through the same motions, but not getting much out of it!! Thanks again. X

[cherokee]

I go for the double lung shot on deer when using the whisper. I have taken three deer with the 300 whisper. Two doe's and one buck. Neither went more than 50 yds. All bullets went completely through the deer. I would not go for the shoulder shot with the 300 whisper. I am not saying that it won't work but I prefer to go for the double lung shot with the 300 whisper. With more powerful calibers I like the high shoulder shot. I use the whisper in thick areas so my shots are never over 100yds. My rifle is an AR15 with 16 inch barrel. http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a286/XJ90/Picture031R.jpg

[patwa]

Cherokee, my thinking about lung shots changed after I read a study from the South Carolina Dept of Natural resources titled "Answering Questions About Guns, Ammo, and Man's Best Friend"

Here is an excerpt from the study that changed my way of thinking:
"Based on the data collected in this study we feel that the best shot placement for deer is the shot directed at the shoulder. Traveling an average of only 3 yards, deer shot in the shoulder traveled significantly less distance than deer shot in the heart, lungs, or abdomen. Also, with such a short distance of travel, deer shot squarely in the shoulder did not generally leave the hunter's sight. In this study, the broadside shoulder shot essentially gave results similar to what most hunters expect from a neck shot. Presumably the broadside shoulder shot works well because it strikes part of the heart and or lungs which itself is a mortal blow. However, a shot through the scapula damages the brachial plexus which the central nervous system thereby rendering the animal immobile. It knocks the animal out and it never regains consciousness. Also, the shoulder is a very large target offering room for error; a high shot hits the spine, a low shot the heart and a shot to the rear hits the lungs."

I used to make neck shots because little meat is wasted, and I am so bad at tracking that I would probably first lose the animal, then get myself lost in the process. I used to think that shoulder shots only immobilized the animal by breaking bones, but the article made the point of paralysis by hitting the brachial plexus and it made sense. After last year, I am convinced, and with the whisper, virtually no meat is lost. In any case, the whole study is really intereting reading and can be found at http://www.scilowcountry.org/cedar_knoll_deer_study.htm

700X, I will follow your advice about the chronograph. Very interesting, I did not know that. I have one but never have used it as you said. I will have it out this weekend, weather permiting.

We hunt only two hours from San Antonio, but we have a problem with an overpopulation of deer. We pretty well leave the bigger bucks alone and try to harvest as many does as possible. I don't have our harvest records available, but most of our bucks are not much over 100 lbs, and the does go 60 to 80 lbs, perfect for the whisper. My wife did shoot two 200+ lbs hogs last year (she always gets the big ones, first time I took her to Texas she shot a 14 point), and it will be interesting if I meet one of those with the whisper.

[700X]

Thanks for the info. Looks like your rig would also be effective if the deer you were hunting were shooting back at you! I would love to shoot a rig like your's with sub-sonic ammo sometime, but in IL cans are taboo. If the current trend continues we'll be deer hunting with sligshots and spears again soon! Thanks again. X

[700X]

Hey Patwa,
Sorry about getting my responses out of order. Hope it's not too confusing to anyone. Thanks for the info. I'll respond to some of it after I've consulted my dictionary! Just kiddin'. I could never have explained why as eloquently as you just did, but I just know from experience that you never have to look for a deer hit high in the chest. I've double-lunged (low) lots of deer over the years, with arrows, shotgun slugs and rifles, and most of them ran like they were on fire. One of which I will never forget because not even Tonto could have tracked that deer. She ran almost 300 yards after the shotgun slug went through both lungs just behind her shoulder, and ran where I couldn't see, and ultimately fell down a undercut bank into a river, luckily in sight of another hunter or we never would have found her. But high hits eliminate that problem. And I have always been willing to sacrifice some eating in exchange for an instant kill. I think we owe it to the animal AND to future hunters to try everything we can to prevent wounded or lost deer. We don't need to be giving the anti's any ammo to run on network TV. Having said all that, sometimes a heart/lung shot may be the only option, like for reasons touched on by Cherokee. But until my tracking skills improve some I'm going to continue to consider the high chest shot the perfect one. As to the chronograph, just remember it only HELPS determine pressure. What I think is neatest about it is that short of a strain guage, it is the only way I know of to judge pressure BEFORE it's already too high. All other methods available to the common guy (primer, extraction, etc.) only show themselves after the damage is done. Don't forget to clear the chronograph before each test. I think you almost need to know how to split an atom in your sleep to compute standard deviations on your own! Thanks again, and stay in touch.X

[320pf]

Here is another observation about the value of chronographs to help you determine the pressures of your reloads. If you plot the powder charge (x-axis) verse the bullet velocity (y-axis) you will see a predictable increase in velocity with increase in powder charge, as you approach max pressures the increase in velocity with powder charge will roll over... flatten. In this plateau region you also tend to get smaller the standard deviations smaller and the best accuracy.

The next incremental increase in powder charge will cause a noticeably large increase in velocity... you are now in the in the danger zone BACK OFF and return to the plateau load(s). I came across this phenomenon using the sierra bullet loading manual data for the 300/221 fireball aka 300 whisper. (By the way, if you are looking for reloading data for the 300 whisper, the sierra reloading manual is probably the best place to start). I started at the beginning recommended load and increase each subsequent load by 0.5 grains. I see this will almost all of the listed loads in the Sierra manual. Without the chronograph you would be clueless. I have also confirmed these observations by measuring the expansion of the casehead-web region of my reloads.

If you are looking for a good chrono I suggest that you look into the Pact (www.pact.com). I have the model 1XP. It lists for ~$129. I went for the IR upgraded sky-screens (for an addition ~$50) because I shoot at an indoor range in the winter. The IR screens work like regular screens in the outdoors and work very well indoors. I recomend this chrono.

[700X]

Great info 320. I'm not a fan of the case head measurement method. I've found increases at what I still consider, by all other methods (velocity included), to be below max. I also think brass make-up has too much opportunity to skew the data.

Here's something to think about, though. You've obviously studied this thouroughly. But here's what the most knowledgeable rifleman I know, my gunsmith, told me about pressure assessment one time. He shoots competitively, and IS competitve, and he and his buddies in the PPC circle believe if you can load the same case 5 times, and the primer doesn't fall out onto the bench when you try to load it the sixth time, your pressures were "OK"....... DO NOT USER THIS INFO AT HOME.......

I'm sure you get his point, as I did, but it is kinda ironic that sometimes the most knowledgeable people can look at things from a much simpler angle.

[320pf]

700x,

I can appreciate trying to keep it simple. Your gunsmith friend is quite correct. If you can get more that five reloads out of your brass you are will within SAAMI pressure standards (Since the 300-221 fireball aka 300 whisper is based on the 221 fireball/223 family of cartridges the maximum pressure for the 300 is the same, 55,000). Conversely, if you are reloading right at maximum pressures you will probably only get about four or five reloads out of your brass (Even if you anneal your brass).

However, I do not think that plotting powder charge verse velocity is all that complicated, especially given computer programs like excel etc... Moreover, by the time you get to reloading the brass the for the sixth time and the primer falls out, you have been dancing with the high-pressure devil for five reloads in ignorant bliss. I would like to know exactly with whom I am dancing with. That way I know when I need to wear my beer goggles... I do not want to get any ugly in my eye :)

[patwa]

700 and 320, thanks again for the info, great stuff. There is always something to learn.
I went out with my chrony last weekend to try to get a good load. I started out low and was going to work my way up by half grain increments. I had lined up some targets to check the groupings. As I was working my way across the targets, I discovered that the chrony has an idicator that tells you when you have shot one of the rods off of it. Dumbass award to me! I had got to 18.5 gr of H110, and I got a five shot spread of 1190 to 1240 fps, but the groups were about 2". E A Brown had a sale on chronys I could not pass up, the Chrony Alpha Master was only 94$. It has a memory and calculates spread and standard deviation.
About primers, after I get my brass primed, I use a hand deprimer rod to feel how well the primer is seated. If it pops out with minimal force, I toss the brass. Not exactly scientific, but it saves me from getting to the range and finding some primers at the bottom of the box.

[700X]

Hey Patwa,

Good for you! Don't worry about the rods. The only time I use mine is when there aren't enough clouds to keep the direct sun from skewing the reads. I need them to hold the sunscreens.

A real pleasure to "meet" you too, 320. Keep in touch.

Patwa, I'm anxiously waiting to hear your detailed data. Extreme spreads tell me you're on the right track. I'm glad you didn't give up on H-110 prematurely. X

[320pf]

Patwa,

You are not the first person guilty of trying to murder their chrono :).

When I am running the chrono I do not try and see how the load is grouping. My procedure is to load five rounds of each load I am interested in and shoot them over the chrono. I will load up several different powders and bullet weights and go the the range and collect my data. For my particular application of the 300 whisper I am looking for maximum loads to make major power factor in three-gun matches [pf = bullet weight x velocity (fps) /1000 > 320; now you know why I choose my particular screen name]. So once I confirm the powder bullet combinations that make major I make up more loads and see what groups the best. My experience agrees with 700X, the loads with the smallest standard deviations will tend to be your most accurate.

I have tried the 165g Nosler ballistic tips and found tat they tend to give higher pressures (blown primers) at relatively smaller powder charges than the Sierra bullets. I think that the reason for this is that the length of the bearing surface (the part of the bullet that engages the lands) for the 165g Noster ballistic tips is slightly longer than the 180g Sierra boattail. I suggest that you try the Sierra 125g bullet. I have loaded the Sierra 125g bullet using 15 to 20g of Hodgdon Lil Gun. Unfortunantly, that was before I got my chrono. I plan on repeating that load sequence and chrono it this weekend.

(Patwa and 700x),

Here is a load that I tried last weekend. I am running an AR15 with a 16" stainless steel olympic arms barrel.

Powder: winchester296; bullet: sierra 180g boat tail C.O.A.L 2.255"
brass: unfired winchester 223; primer winchester small rifle
12.5 1554 +/- 42 fps This is the start load listed in the sierra manual
13.5 1628 +/- 16 fps
14.5 1713 +/- 16 fps
15.0 1749 +/- 21 fps This is the max load listed in the sierra manual
15.5 1762 +/- 13 fps This is probably the most accurate in my gun
16.0 1778 +/- 16 fps
16.5 1816 +/- 17 fps

The sierra loading manual list the velocities from a 10 in. barrel and are about 200 fps slower for every load.

I ran the QUICKLOAD program and the results indicate that I am just pushing 55000 at 16.5g 296. I plan and developing this load further... backing-off a bit from 16.5 and looking at finer slices in the 15.5 to 16.0 <16.5 range.

[patwa]

Finally made it to the range with the new chrono. BTW, here is a place to calculate mean averages and standard deviations automatically: http://invsee.asu.edu/srinivas/stdev.html

Anyway, with the Nosler BT 125 gr, rem 7 1/2 primers and H110 powder, here are the results.

gr vel avg sd
18.6 2238 +/- 15 18.2 (excluding one high vel, +/- 7 and sd 6.1)
18.7 2250 +/- 19 16.97
18.8 2228 +/- 29 20.98
18.9 2255 +/- 20 11.4

The groups were just over one inch, good enough for hunting. When repriming the brass, I noticed almost half had loose primer pockets, so I may still be on the high end of the pressure scale on some loads. Because of that I will probably load some with the 18.6 grains in new brass and see how the groups and primer pockets are. There is not enough difference in velocity to justify pushing it.
I will be going to the ranch in a couple of weeks. I will try it on pigs and give a report.

[320pf]

Patwa,

What gun, action type, and barrel length were you using for the loads you posted?

[patwa]

AR 15 with a 16 inch barrel.
http://photo.walgreens.com/slideshow/AlbumID=10801239/PictureID=250031727/a=5905633_5905633/t_=5905633